What does it take for you to change your opinions about peop

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McTell
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23 Mar 2009, 7:03 pm

Zyborg wrote:
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I disagree with that idea, because when you sub-categorise the sub-categories of the sub-categories (you get the idea), you discover that every person is entirely unique, that is they are in a category of one, and that is exactly what an individual is.

Also, I completely fail to see how friendship could ever make one weak. Please explain it to me.


I do not care about uniqueness of individuals. That is of no interest to me. What I care is general characteristics of different groups. What I am interested in is to get some form of order out of chaos. I see people as highly exchangeable.


Ah, so it isn't that you fail to see humans as individuals, but rather that you ignore that as superfluous to your idea of the world. I understand now.

You haven't told me why you think friendship makes one weak. I'm genuinely curious about this idea.



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23 Mar 2009, 7:14 pm

McTell wrote:
Zyborg wrote:
McTell wrote:
I disagree with that idea, because when you sub-categorise the sub-categories of the sub-categories (you get the idea), you discover that every person is entirely unique, that is they are in a category of one, and that is exactly what an individual is.

Also, I completely fail to see how friendship could ever make one weak. Please explain it to me.


I do not care about uniqueness of individuals. That is of no interest to me. What I care is general characteristics of different groups. What I am interested in is to get some form of order out of chaos. I see people as highly exchangeable.


Ah, so it isn't that you fail to see humans as individuals, but rather that you ignore that as superfluous to your idea of the world. I understand now.

You haven't told me why you think friendship makes one weak. I'm genuinely curious about this idea.


My enemies will try to hurt my friends to make me weak. My friends will put obligations on me. I am not ready to do that.



McTell
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23 Mar 2009, 7:16 pm

What if these people who didn't like you came to hurt you? Without friends, who would help you?



AceOfSpades
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23 Mar 2009, 7:40 pm

McTell wrote:
What if these people who didn't like you came to hurt you? Without friends, who would help you?
Sounds like his insecurity and views on life came from being hurt. His attitude is defensive and militant.



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23 Mar 2009, 9:24 pm

jamesp420 wrote:
It takes a lot for me to change my opinion of people. I usually judge too harshly, especially off first impressions. It's something I have to work on.


I'm the same, but not necessarily just first impressions. If I lose respect for someone (because they did something blatantly stupid or they betrayed my trust or proved to be hypocrites), it's almost impossible to change my views. NTs change their opinions far more easily, I've noticed.

I have a problem with dismissing people too easily - since the vast majority of people I've known, there's been little point in it, my default thought is that the same will happen with any new people.


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Zyborg
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24 Mar 2009, 5:37 am

McTell wrote:
What if these people who didn't like you came to hurt you? Without friends, who would help you?


They won't. Because then I will hurt them as well.

Besides, friends do not help you just for being friends. But if you are leader, your henchmen will help you as long as you appear strong.



McTell
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24 Mar 2009, 5:46 am

Actually, friends would help you just because they are your friends. That is pretty much the exact measure of a friend.

I'd be surprised if you have "henchmen". We don't live in a bond movie.



Zyborg
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24 Mar 2009, 6:01 am

McTell wrote:
Actually, friends would help you just because they are your friends. That is pretty much the exact measure of a friend.

I'd be surprised if you have "henchmen". We don't live in a bond movie.


When they do it because they are friends, I will be in weaker position since I cannot be sure they will help me. I prefer to be boss. Then I am sure they will help me, since I am providing them direction.



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24 Mar 2009, 6:08 am

You seem young, and it's obvious that you've been hurt in the past. Believe me, I've been there. But throwing up walls isn't the path to a happy existence. Having people you can count on can go a long way toward healing old wounds.

Unrelated: "Ad Hominem" =/= personal attack. Ad hominem is a logical fallacy where one attempts to disprove a person's argument based on the person making the argument, rather than addressing the argument itself. This usually will involve a personal attack, but the two terms are not synonymous.



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24 Mar 2009, 6:16 am

Zyborg wrote:
McTell wrote:
I disagree with that idea, because when you sub-categorise the sub-categories of the sub-categories (you get the idea), you discover that every person is entirely unique, that is they are in a category of one, and that is exactly what an individual is.

Also, I completely fail to see how friendship could ever make one weak. Please explain it to me.


I do not care about uniqueness of individuals. That is of no interest to me. What I care is general characteristics of different groups. What I am interested in is to get some form of order out of chaos. I see people as highly exchangeable.


Do you include yourself within this exchangeability?


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Ambivalence
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24 Mar 2009, 6:34 am

Zyborg, if you've not read "Ender's Game", I suspect you'd love it.


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24 Mar 2009, 7:30 am

Well, you don't want to be feared. I'm often feared by many people, and I still get a lot of ridicule and a lot of people not taking me seriously. It's like if they fear you, it just makes you the bigger target. It's not that they are scared of me hurting them, it's just that I'm kinda domineering and can be pretty intimidating without meaning to be. People fear that, and they don't like it. Respect out of fear is only superficial, for those cases when it does work. Hint: Offense forces someone to use their defense.

If you really want a militant attitude, you can find people respecting you and taking you seriously when you display character. I personally just try to do the right thing. Many people respect that. I don't do it for their respect. I do it for my own respect. Here's some military attitudes: Death before Dishonor. Honor, Courage, Commitment. Integrity First. Excellence in all you do. Service before self.

My attitude towards people fall in their intentions generally. If they do the right thing for the wrong reasons, I do repsect that more than if they didn't do the right thing at all, but if their intentions are in the right place, they earned my respect. I don't know how to tell people to find that. I'm not sure I know it or if it's just in my mind. But actions do speak louder than words.

Oh yeah, and I notice people take me more seriously when I don't monologue. Sometimes it's not that they don't take one seriously as much as they have the attention span of Elmo. And make sure what little you say means something. If you are constantly spitting out some one liners that make people question that you may possibly be a sandwich shy of a full picnic, then they aren't going to take you seriously. That means talking on their level rather than your preconceived idea of how you think you should talk. It's basic survival. Move, adapt, or die, scientifically speaking at least.

Henchmen is your illusion, my guess, from personal experience in how you perceive a team of bullies. People who bully are hiding a bigger problem. Usually they are fat, have a learning disability or a bad GPA, come from a lousy home, or something. Whatever is making them be the bully is a much bigger problem than what you could ever provide as vengeance. Kharma comes back.

If you were to focus your attitude on helping people, you might just someday find out why they are worth helping. My suggestion, find God. But if you think I'm totally off the rocker for saying that, then at least consider reading up on the Tao. Christianity, when taken seriously unlike many churches out there, will teach you to overcome the world through love. It's the rules of the spiritual world. Because it's about spirituality, it's the strongest more long term teaching. The Tao, it teaches you natural law. It's not as strong as spirituality, but it yields instant short term results (those you will see in your lifetime with earthly eyes without need for intuition). The beautiful thing about it, it's about going with the flow and then re-directing it within that flow. So you aren't creating bad or good as much as shifting what you don't want in your life out of it. It's main concepts are going with the flow, being content with who you are as opposed to what you have, and the beauty of the uncarved block. A great book on it is The Tao of Pooh for major concepts, and a good movie is Jet Li in Twin Warriors to see those concepts in martial arts battles and training.

You are obviously REACTING to the world around you. There's no logic in that. Find a way to RESPOND to the world. But if you really want a world where the strong survives and might is right, then I suggest moving to a ghetto. Puerto Rico has some good ones if you can speak Spanish fluently. As strong as you may think you are or aim to be, I really would hate to throw a lamb into a pit of wolves. My suggestion is to find direction. You want to be the leader? Then you have to know where you are going, and it appears to me that you don't have a clue. Don't just accept any direction in your life. Find your own. Check out some books on different religions and philosophies. It will take years to figure out who you are in that world, but it's worth the effort.

A friend who helps because they love you is going to provide better help than a guy who helps because he's afraid, or because he's getting paid (same thing as helping out of fear because both intentions are selfish in nature whereas the friend is selfless).



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24 Mar 2009, 8:00 am

There's very few people am have bad views of,as am respect everyone as equal at the start,it takes a lot to really change it,the ones that are thought of as bad have all done very nasty things to am,and they're all council support staff-will never forget the things those on bad list have done.


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24 Mar 2009, 8:37 am

Tantybi wrote:
Well, you don't want to be feared. I'm often feared by many people, and I still get a lot of ridicule and a lot of people not taking me seriously.

Sometimes it's okay to be feared a little. I don't know how many people here have actually been seriously bullied. I know I have, Zyborg and a few others appear to have been too. Sometimes we're stuck in a situation where intimidation is the only way to get people to stop their bs with us. It's not like we want to be that way, we just want some respect and for people to stop disrespecting us and thinking they can do whatever they want and we are completely powerless. People who are slightly intimidated will think twice before running up on us or ganging up on the sly.
I wouldn't go too far, though, Zyborg, because sometimes it can backfire.



Zyborg
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24 Mar 2009, 9:56 am

Tantybi wrote:
Well, you don't want to be feared. I'm often feared by many people, and I still get a lot of ridicule and a lot of people not taking me seriously. It's like if they fear you, it just makes you the bigger target. It's not that they are scared of me hurting them, it's just that I'm kinda domineering and can be pretty intimidating without meaning to be. People fear that, and they don't like it. Respect out of fear is only superficial, for those cases when it does work. Hint: Offense forces someone to use their defense.


I am defensive, not offensive.

Quote:
If you really want a militant attitude, you can find people respecting you and taking you seriously when you display character. I personally just try to do the right thing. Many people respect that. I don't do it for their respect. I do it for my own respect. Here's some military attitudes: Death before Dishonor. Honor, Courage, Commitment. Integrity First. Excellence in all you do. Service before self.


That IS my attitude. I am very committed to changing the world and honour my promises and allegiances.

Quote:
Oh yeah, and I notice people take me more seriously when I don't monologue. Sometimes it's not that they don't take one seriously as much as they have the attention span of Elmo. And make sure what little you say means something. If you are constantly spitting out some one liners that make people question that you may possibly be a sandwich shy of a full picnic, then they aren't going to take you seriously. That means talking on their level rather than your preconceived idea of how you think you should talk. It's basic survival. Move, adapt, or die, scientifically speaking at least.


I do not speak very much at all. I say like two or three sentences per day.

Quote:
Henchmen is your illusion, my guess, from personal experience in how you perceive a team of bullies. People who bully are hiding a bigger problem. Usually they are fat, have a learning disability or a bad GPA, come from a lousy home, or something. Whatever is making them be the bully is a much bigger problem than what you could ever provide as vengeance. Kharma comes back.


Best method to achieve security is to be in position of formal or informal power.

Quote:
If you were to focus your attitude on helping people, you might just someday find out why they are worth helping. My suggestion, find God. But if you think I'm totally off the rocker for saying that, then at least consider reading up on the Tao. Christianity, when taken seriously unlike many churches out there, will teach you to overcome the world through love. It's the rules of the spiritual world. Because it's about spirituality, it's the strongest more long term teaching. The Tao, it teaches you natural law. It's not as strong as spirituality, but it yields instant short term results (those you will see in your lifetime with earthly eyes without need for intuition). The beautiful thing about it, it's about going with the flow and then re-directing it within that flow. So you aren't creating bad or good as much as shifting what you don't want in your life out of it. It's main concepts are going with the flow, being content with who you are as opposed to what you have, and the beauty of the uncarved block. A great book on it is The Tao of Pooh for major concepts, and a good movie is Jet Li in Twin Warriors to see those concepts in martial arts battles and training.


You mean crawl before "superdaddy" and cleanse myself from autonomy? No thanks. I am militant atheist. I will not fool myself.

If God exist, he follows laws of physics. That mean WE could become God ourselves. And that mean we should. It is always better to be in power than to be submissive.

Quote:
You are obviously REACTING to the world around you. There's no logic in that. Find a way to RESPOND to the world. But if you really want a world where the strong survives and might is right, then I suggest moving to a ghetto. Puerto Rico has some good ones if you can speak Spanish fluently. As strong as you may think you are or aim to be, I really would hate to throw a lamb into a pit of wolves. My suggestion is to find direction. You want to be the leader? Then you have to know where you are going, and it appears to me that you don't have a clue. Don't just accept any direction in your life. Find your own. Check out some books on different religions and philosophies. It will take years to figure out who you are in that world, but it's worth the effort.


I am born in ghetto originally. I am adapted to ghetto life. I do not appreciate ghetto. But overall society is only degree less chaotic than ghetto.

I know exactly where I am going: http://aspergia.moroccoforum.net

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A friend who helps because they love you is going to provide better help than a guy who helps because he's afraid, or because he's getting paid (same thing as helping out of fear because both intentions are selfish in nature whereas the friend is selfless).


Love is weak. It dies with demands. Cola di Rienzi was loved by people of Rome, but with first defeat, they sold him to his enemies.



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24 Mar 2009, 10:26 am

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Love is weak. It dies with demands. Cola di Rienzi was loved by people of Rome, but with first defeat, they sold him to his enemies.


You know, the people didn't love him, at least not in the same way as one would love a friend.

He was in a position of power and that afforded him no safety, which makes it a counterexample to the argument you are putting forward - that is, that friendship and love do not afford security, but being in a position of power and having underlings do.