Study saying autistic people are too morally rigid. Erm...?

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himmellaufen
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22 Oct 2022, 2:22 pm

KitLily wrote:
himmellaufen wrote:
Rigid moral thinking is considered connected to the impaired theory of mind; that is, difficulty with considering other perspectives and seeing things in shades of gray. For example, an autistic person who sees stealing as always bad, will judge the thief without even considering his circumstances, not out of ill will, but because it didn't even occur to them.

However, once these circumstances are made clear the same autistic person might reconsider their judgment in view of this new piece of information.


Isn't that most people however? People will judge someone as bad for thieving (or whatever), then when they find out the circumstances, change their minds. That's why they have juries in court cases.


Yes, but autistic people often won't even imagine that other perspective(unless it's spelled out for them or they had prior experience with that) due to impairments in social imagination.

There is a tendency to make assumptions, and argue everything based on that assumption, without questioning the assumption itself. The assumptions such as, for example, "all thieves are driven by greed" or "anyone who goes to the gym does so to lose weight" or "graduating high school is nessecery to find a job later in life".

It's not all related to morality, but might be.



KitLily
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22 Oct 2022, 3:29 pm

himmellaufen wrote:
KitLily wrote:
Isn't that most people however? People will judge someone as bad for thieving (or whatever), then when they find out the circumstances, change their minds. That's why they have juries in court cases.


Yes, but autistic people often won't even imagine that other perspective(unless it's spelled out for them or they had prior experience with that) due to impairments in social imagination.

There is a tendency to make assumptions, and argue everything based on that assumption, without questioning the assumption itself. The assumptions such as, for example, "all thieves are driven by greed" or "anyone who goes to the gym does so to lose weight" or "graduating high school is nessecery to find a job later in life".

It's not all related to morality, but might be.


I'm now wondering if I'm autistic at all, because I have a great imagination and I'm pretty good at putting myself in other people's shoes. Unless they are trying to take advantage of me in some way.


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22 Oct 2022, 4:40 pm

nt make assumptions all the time
thats how stigma and discrimination is born

why do only autistic get the third degree for making assumptions and nt can discriminate,bully,stigmatize not understand our rights or feelings and they get away with it and autistic still claim nt are the empathy ones and autistics not


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KitLily
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23 Oct 2022, 8:12 am

I think NTs and autists show empathy in different ways and they don't understand each other.

I think NTs make a big song and dance about helping others, whereas autists quietly observe what needs to be done and do it.


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11 Nov 2022, 7:21 am

I think that there are tendencies of cognitive rigidity in the autistic population. I would not say that autism people can simply be boiled down to having black and white thinking. Occasionally we have strong principles and might actually see the other side by empathising, yet do not change viewpoints because empathising with someone else's view does not necessarily mean one will change their mind about a given idea. Though it is possible that we can, we are less likely than NTs to change views on certain things. I am not sure how empathetic other autistics are. I think it can vary and we do have our blind spots, which is why I am sceptical that face-to-face autism group spaces solely led by autistic people are inclusive. As a community there is currently alot of focus on autism advocacy where autistic people are encouraged to lead the way in forging their own path. It's fine of course to have your own voice but having a face-to-face group populated by autistic people who have strong views on things might be a disastrous recipe for conflict. Therefore, I think it is important to have the odd NT to faciliate and help defuse things, due to our cognitive blind spots. Not a popular view in the current "autism empowerment"/"neurodiversity"/"neurodivergent" climate, but I think it is necessary.

Aside form cognitive rigidity, I think that there exists a segment of autistic people that do not have rigid ideas about things and some who may even be the polar opposite who are impressionable and perhaps even are too easily influenced by other people's ideas. I certainly know of autistic people who are impressionable because they don't really have a view about certain things.

That said, the brain is plastic and most humans are capable of modifying their views about a given topic.



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11 Nov 2022, 2:19 pm

KitLily wrote:
This study is basically saying that because autistic people generally tend to follow moral rules whether in public or in private, they are too inflexible and therefore not normal.

Isn't it better to stick to your morals wherever you are?

Right Temporoparietal Junction Underlies Avoidance of Moral Transgression in Autism Spectrum Disorder
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/41/8/1699


Selection from Abstract:
ASD participants and healthy control subjects (HCs) decided in public or private whether to incur a personal cost for funding a morally good cause (Good Context) or receive a personal gain for benefiting a morally bad cause (Bad Context).

Compared with HC, individuals with ASD were much more likely to reject the opportunity to earn ill gotten money by supporting a bad cause than were HCs.

Computational modeling revealed that this resulted from heavily weighing benefits for themselves and the bad cause, suggesting that ASD participants apply a rule of refusing to serve a bad cause because they evaluate the negative consequences of their actions more severely.


Doesnt sound near as hostile as other studies, at least to this point.



KitLily
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12 Nov 2022, 7:34 am

The_Znof wrote:
KitLily wrote:
This study is basically saying that because autistic people generally tend to follow moral rules whether in public or in private, they are too inflexible and therefore not normal.

Isn't it better to stick to your morals wherever you are?

Right Temporoparietal Junction Underlies Avoidance of Moral Transgression in Autism Spectrum Disorder
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/41/8/1699


Selection from Abstract:
ASD participants and healthy control subjects (HCs) decided in public or private whether to incur a personal cost for funding a morally good cause (Good Context) or receive a personal gain for benefiting a morally bad cause (Bad Context).

Compared with HC, individuals with ASD were much more likely to reject the opportunity to earn ill gotten money by supporting a bad cause than were HCs.

Computational modeling revealed that this resulted from heavily weighing benefits for themselves and the bad cause, suggesting that ASD participants apply a rule of refusing to serve a bad cause because they evaluate the negative consequences of their actions more severely.


Doesnt sound near as hostile as other studies, at least to this point.


That sounds like having ASD is a HUGE moral advantage IMO. Not sure why that's a bad thing...


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12 Nov 2022, 10:11 pm

Not having enough grey area is rigidity.
And not balancing grey areas isn't any better.

Most of these realities are done in consensus unfortunately. :roll:
Game theory like system of gaining more in favor of one's own, or gaining less in favor of no one or penalizes one's own.

Of course anyone who's not acting selfish enough is seen as abnormal or naive.
Why do you think lawbreaking happens a lot and a lot of cases remain unsolved? Law and rules isn't absolute.

Getting away with things is a skill that's being practiced since childhood -- any parent of any neurology would know -- how does one think that kids hate the snitch?

Most aspies tend to be snitches instead of 'allies' who helps other kids get away with it.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I'm too asocial enough to not go either ways.

And then consequently -- how would that carry in adulthood?

So is morality. Whether it's from religious households or some fear mongering tool that dictates right and wrong.
Guilt and shame, even 'morality' and 'punishment' just as do 'empathy' is just another emotion to regulate, another subconscious input thing to put into context in which most gives it wrong ideas of, and most at the time it's not worth it in survival based realities.
More so in the game that this world's people are playing.

Just don't play the stupid game nonetheless. But I prefer to be free and choose myself.
Except I don't have a good enough skill -- and it's not even consciously done.

In a larger scale of things, it wouldn't matter much who's right and wrong.
Only whose voices echoes and spreads, and convinces the majority to go for it -- that alters right and wrong.


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KitLily
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13 Nov 2022, 12:06 pm

Interesting that autists tend to be 'snitches.' That explains a lot. I've always just answered a question that someone asks me, clearly and directly. It's only recently I've learned to think 'WHY is this person asking me this question? Maybe I'd better not answer.'


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29 Nov 2022, 11:56 pm

Yep, I've been accused of throwing someone "under the bus" because I simply told someone else what they did. So I didn't think until later on that what I did was snitching.



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30 Nov 2022, 3:37 pm

KitLily wrote:
The_Znof wrote:
KitLily wrote:
This study is basically saying that because autistic people generally tend to follow moral rules whether in public or in private, they are too inflexible and therefore not normal.

Isn't it better to stick to your morals wherever you are?

Right Temporoparietal Junction Underlies Avoidance of Moral Transgression in Autism Spectrum Disorder
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/41/8/1699


Selection from Abstract:
ASD participants and healthy control subjects (HCs) decided in public or private whether to incur a personal cost for funding a morally good cause (Good Context) or receive a personal gain for benefiting a morally bad cause (Bad Context).

Compared with HC, individuals with ASD were much more likely to reject the opportunity to earn ill gotten money by supporting a bad cause than were HCs.

Computational modeling revealed that this resulted from heavily weighing benefits for themselves and the bad cause, suggesting that ASD participants apply a rule of refusing to serve a bad cause because they evaluate the negative consequences of their actions more severely.


Doesnt sound near as hostile as other studies, at least to this point.


That sounds like having ASD is a HUGE moral advantage IMO. Not sure why that's a bad thing...


Do autistic people not commit crime?

I believe there is another recent post on this autism politics part of the site about autistic people in prison :?

viewtopic.php?t=409434

Also an advantage only works if everyone is playing by the same rules, otherwise you just get taken advantage of and eventually crushed which ASD people often do.

I would recommend watching the netflix show "As We See It" for an idea of how this so called moral advantage really works in real life

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_JA2JXM25Y


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