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BeaArthur
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17 Jun 2021, 4:42 pm

tensordyne wrote:
Quote:
Never let YouTube videos do your thinking for you.


I feel it is more like you don't want to think about it at all so you are using the above to avoid further discussion.

The second video has points an omnivore could use against the Vegan charge, for instance, but you did not bring those up, and hence, as far as I can tell, you do not want to engage in an honest discussion about the various claims.

This is your right! So be it!! !

I don't want to watch any videos, either. I keep my speakers permanently muted. I don't have the patience for videos and I don't learn well in the auditory channel. I freely admit I don't want to learn more about veganism, and yes, I would like to avoid further discussion.


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Fnord
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17 Jun 2021, 4:49 pm

Any generic Asian diet is also good, as long as you stay away from anything deep-fried or heavily sauced.  My wife and I have rice, fish, and green veggies for supper a few times each week.  Every now and then, we have a more "omnivorous" meal.  Otherwise, it is usually either leftovers or take-out/delivery.


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Fnord
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17 Jun 2021, 4:52 pm

BeaArthur wrote:
I don't want to watch any videos, either. I keep my speakers permanently muted. I don't have the patience for videos and I don't learn well in the auditory channel. I freely admit I don't want to learn more about veganism, and yes, I would like to avoid further discussion.
Can I interest you in a Chick Tract instead?

:wink:


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tensordyne
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17 Jun 2021, 11:37 pm

Quote:
I freely admit I don't want to learn more about veganism, and yes, I would like to avoid further discussion.


Fine, but the topic is "Veganism v. Omnivore"??? Further discussion of this IRL? Can not help you there.


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MrsPeel
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18 Jun 2021, 12:50 am

tensordyne wrote:
:D As a 10 year Vegan, I am highly incredulous of claims about a Vegan diet not working for you. Coming off of meat is like coming off of any addiction, there are withdrawal symptoms. Those symptoms do not mean the addiction is good for you though.


This intolerant attitude really grates on me - the idea that just because a particular diet has worked for you, it will work for everyone else, and the idea that those who tried going vegan and failed were too ignorant to maintain the right nutrition.

I tried a vegetarian diet when I was younger and was very careful to make sure I got the right nutrition in it, according to conventional wisdom (for instance, getting protein from combining sources such as legumes and nuts, grains, mushrooms, dairy). In the long term this diet actually made me quite ill. It turned out I couldn't tolerate a diet high in whole grains and legumes - I think it may have been the leptins or similar antinutrients.

Nowadays I eat a diet with plenty of plants in it (I love my veggies) but I limit legumes to two or three times a week, only eat white bread, and include eggs, meat and fish to make sure I'm getting enough protein, B12 and fat-soluble vitamins. That works well for me.

If you look at traditional diets (pre-industrialisation), very few are truly vegan. Many are plant-based, but most will also include small amounts of meat, seafood, or dairy. For instance, many Indians are vegetarian but eat dairy. In Japan they eat seafood in addition to soybeans, and in China small amounts of pork. White rice is the go-to, not brown, whatever the nutritionists would have you believe. I strongly believe these traditional diets are the best for health.

I'm not anti-vegan but I know some people are - and having a "holier-than-thou" attitude towards your choice isn't helping your cause in that respect.



tensordyne
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18 Jun 2021, 2:28 am

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I'm not anti-vegan but I know some people are - and having a "holier-than-thou" attitude towards your choice isn't helping your cause in that respect.


I am not a good ambassador of anything, my apologies. Looking up the term.

Quote:
ho·li·er-than-thou
/ˌhōlēərT͟HənˈT͟Hou/
adjective
characterized by an attitude of moral superiority.


A Vegan diet _is_ the morally superior diet. Do you think I would be dumb enough to choose a diet I thought was morally inferior? I mean, perhaps I should grind up little children and eat them if that makes you happy?

I don't care about your feelings if they get in the way of the truth. Maybe that makes me a psycho, or some version of something else, but I just don't care. :twisted:

Did you consider, for even just a second, the possibility that if you are not Vegan, you might deserve a smug attitude being given to you? Greta Thunberg is angry with you, and I do not blame her. In the past there was a turnover point where still believing in a flat earth made you look like an idiot. At what point will that be for us about the Vegan topic?

Is it when the oil runs out and the very artificial conditions that allow meat to be cheaper than veggies stops, followed by mass starvation? Or is it when another zoonotic super-flu disease gets released into the civilized world, this time from a CAFO? Or perhaps after sperm counts get so low we can not reproduce because men have become too feminized by the estrogenic compounds in meat? Or the trillionth 100% avoidable heart attack? Or...

Probably not. I did not make the claim about meat being addictive out of hyperbole. Watch the video and decide for yourself, if you can. Point is, there are things to know and that are important to human development relative to the Vegan topic. Actual science and solid reasoning.

I say meat is a human addiction for three reasons.

1. Humans do not need to eat meat to survive.
2. There are solid scientific reasons to think that human meat consumption is deleterious to health.
3. And yet, everyone seems not to care about 1. and 2.

Let's compare:

1. You do not need to take heroin.
2. Taking heroin is deleterious to your health.
3. Heroin addicts do not care in the least about hearing about 1. and 2.

Eating meat for humans (unless you are a localvore without access to plants {sucks to be you}, or someone stuck in a food desert, that kind of survival thing), is just another civilized addiction. The plaintiff closes, your honor.

Talk to me about Science and Empathy and I will listen. Write to me "ohh, Vegans are so annoying!", and you will get the hand. :skull:


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MrsPeel
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18 Jun 2021, 2:51 am

My point is that, even if a vegan diet is morally superior, not everyone is suited to it, and that there may be health, cultural, or socioeconomic reasons to be eating small quantities of animal produce.

I'd be the first to agree that many western diets are too heavy in meat, and that the animals may not always be raised in great conditions. But that doesn't mean we can all switch to veganism without health implications.

For example:
https://theconversation.com/do-vegan-di ... ker-162420

Quote:
The researchers found that compared to children on omnivore diets, children on vegan diets had a healthier cardiovascular risk profile, with 25% lower levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL, or unhealthy cholesterol).

However the vegan children had an increased risk of nutritional deficiencies. They were more likely to have lower levels of vitamin B12, calcium, vitamin D and iron in their diet.

Children on vegan diets had about 5% lower bone mineral content and were on average 3cm shorter in height. This is important, as the higher the bone mineral content, the higher the bone mineral density.

This 5% difference is concerning, as people have a limited period of time at this age in which they can optimise their bone mineral density; 95% of bone mass is attained by about 20 years of age. Lower bone densities are linked to higher rates of fractures in later life.


Personally, I have no problem with people promoting a vegan diet. But I do have a problem with the idea that anyone who eats any kind of animal products is necessarily making a morally inferior choice. You need to take people's individual circumstances into account (such as health conditions, allergies, available budget, cultural background) in understanding their dietary choices.

I just think that if we are to encourage less meat in the diet, it is not beneficial to take the stance that a completely vegan diet is the only one that can be justified. It will more likely turn people against vegans than help your cause.



badRobot
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18 Jun 2021, 2:55 am

Dude, stop spreading misinformation. "Cow fart" report was debunked almost immediately, but it was picked up by press, Monsanto and co. PR departments force this myth through "moral superiority" narrative to redirect blame from their damage to environment to meat industry.



MrsPeel
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18 Jun 2021, 3:30 am

The videos tensordyne posted are actually really interesting.

However, my take on the first video was that it was pointing out the problems with a junk food diet, in which meat and processed food that is high in fat, sugar and protein but low in fibre are eaten on a daily basis. It does not address the question of which diet humans are most suited to eat (except that it is not a modern junk food diet or one in which meat is eaten several times a day).

The second video talks more about what kind of diet humans are best suited to, and stresses the importance of plant starches such as tubers. However, this video is only pointing out that we are not carnivores and that animal products might have been less than 25% of the human diet before agriculture. It is not saying that we are suited to a completely vegan diet.



BeaArthur
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18 Jun 2021, 8:33 am

Fnord wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
I don't want to watch any videos, either. I keep my speakers permanently muted. I don't have the patience for videos and I don't learn well in the auditory channel. I freely admit I don't want to learn more about veganism, and yes, I would like to avoid further discussion.
Can I interest you in a Chick Tract instead?

:wink:

In a WHAT???


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Fnord
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18 Jun 2021, 8:42 am

BeaArthur wrote:
Fnord wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
I don't want to watch any videos, either. I keep my speakers permanently muted. I don't have the patience for videos and I don't learn well in the auditory channel. I freely admit I don't want to learn more about veganism, and yes, I would like to avoid further discussion.
Can I interest you in a Chick Tract instead?
In a WHAT???
A Chick Tract -- a pamphlet produced by Jack Chick Publishing, which promotes Christianity and demonizes just about everything else...

Image


... I remember seeing one on "Satan's Diet: VEGANISM" somewhere.

:D


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BeaArthur
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18 Jun 2021, 8:54 am

@Fnord: Oy.


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Fnord
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18 Jun 2021, 8:57 am

BeaArthur wrote:
@Fnord: Oy.
I'll take that as a "No" answer.


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xxZeromancerlovexx
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18 Jun 2021, 9:09 am

Oh, gosh. What has my thread become?


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tensordyne
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18 Jun 2021, 2:20 pm

Quote:
... I remember seeing one on "Satan's Diet: VEGANISM" somewhere.


I am very interested in seeing that. If they have anything on hot gay sex, I would also be interested in that as well. :D

Quote:
My point is that, even if a vegan diet is morally superior, not everyone is suited to it, and that there may be health, cultural, or socioeconomic reasons to be eating small quantities of animal produce.


That is a well-written point. I guess I was triggered by the ump-teenth person saying "but Vegans are not nice...", which just feels like flag planting.

It is a medical / scientific claim to say a diet to be suited for certain people, but not others. While there will be variation in any population, all species have an optimal diet they are most adapted to because of evolution. If you want to claim it is diet X for humans, fine by me, but I am just not into going against science and making some hippy claim of "everyone knows their own body best" non-argument.

You don't have different diets for cats. Feed a cat lettuce all the time and they will waste away. Feed a human nothing but meat and they will become obese and have other health conditions.

Quote:
But that doesn't mean we can all switch to veganism without health implications.


Can you provide proof of this claim that is not anecdotal? As far as I can tell, that is not the truth of the matter and is a common misconception. Even an Inuit person (probably the people most adapted to eating meat), would benefit from an all Vegan diet. Name a nutrient we get from animals that we can not get in a better form in plants?

Ultimately, I just don't want to be in humanity's current form. Let's say you are right Ms. Peel, and humans are naturally omnivores and we should just let everyone do their thing, how is that not monstrous in its outcome? We are smart enough that our evolution is at least partially in our hands. Should we evolve towards being meat-eaters dependent upon an environmentally costly source of food, which will also mean untold more suffering before it can suit us... and even more suffering after.

Or should we own up to reality and stop collectively being monsters?

And another thing that bugs me, sociologically meat eating has associations with power. Christian Men eat meat!

Toxic Masculinity x Abrahamic Speciesism x Hippy Attitude = Most People.

Other animals predate on weak animals in such a way that the herd gets stronger. We store sickened, tortured animals to eat them for the pleasure of it, even though with our big brains we gained from eating starch we know that causes them pain and suffering. And it is not even sustainable for much longer. :skull:

Quote:
I just think that if we are to encourage less meat in the diet, it is not beneficial to take the stance that a completely vegan diet is the only one that can be justified. It will more likely turn people against vegans than help your cause.


True, I am supposed to play some long game. If I was devious, I would present as the milk-toast version of a Vegan you advise for. I would only agree to points favorable to "the Vegan cause" and work on all of you like I was a soviet era propagandist; playing mind-games all the time. I do not think I can ever be that type of person. I am like Strider, "I look foul and feel fair." 8O

I just keep hearing the same arguments of let people be free; stop being unsociable; etc... except I can not get past the consequences: obesity epidemic, catastrophic environmental degradation, needless human and non-human animal suffering. :?


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badRobot
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18 Jun 2021, 2:49 pm

tensordyne wrote:
Feed a human nothing but meat and they will become obese and have other health conditions.

No, human becomes obese as a result of fat utilization being suppressed by high insulin levels. Meat doesn't do that. Carbs do.

Quote:
Name a nutrient we get from animals that we can not get in a better form in plants?

Pretty much every nutrient from the list of known essential nutrients?

Quote:
I just keep hearing the same arguments of let people be free; stop being unsociable; etc... except I can not get past the consequences: obesity epidemic, catastrophic environmental degradation, needless human and non-human animal suffering. :?

obesity epidemic is mostly result of consumption of processed grains.

catastrophic environmental degradation is result of industrial agriculture, deforestation and destruction of ecological systems by monocrops are a huge part of the problem.

If you wanna fight animal suffering you should start with protesting against having pets and deforestation clearing space for soy beans used in vegan products and wiping out populations and species of wild animals.