Page 4 of 4 [ 60 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

badRobot
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 466

17 Jun 2021, 1:03 pm

Fnord wrote:
badRobot wrote:
Fnord wrote:
badRobot wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I have noticed a few members who seem to equate "some" with "all", "studies suggest" with "research proves", and "anomaly" with "every instance".  While I suspect it is an aspie thing, it may also be that some people feel uncomfortable with anything that falls short of absolute.
Yes, I've noticed them too. I say something like "Intense physical activity downregulates stress and improves tryptophan metabolism and reduces level of quinolinic acid in the brain" and they equate it to "Physical activity is all you need to completely cure depression". Aren't some people stupid?
No ... but there are some people who think writers mean "for all people" if they do not include "for some people" in a declarative statement instead.

:wink: See what I did there?


Yes, I see what you did. You replied with meaningless argument for the sake of argument again. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
My points are: (1) The fact that some people do not "get" what you tell them does not mean they are "stupid"; (2) some people assume default conditions unless qualifiers are explicitly stated, and this also does not make them "stupid"; and (3) the fact that you neither understand nor agree with what someone else says does not make what they are saying "pointless".


This is not your point. This is argument for the sake of argument. What is your point about my approach?

Why do you stand against being physically active, getting enough sunlight, fresh air and eating healthy?

Is it harmful? Does it take too much effort, but probably completely useless to even bother? Why are you against it?

If you need solid 100.000000% proof of efficacy to even try, why don't you need the same level of proof to accept CBT, for example?

WHAT IS YOUR POINT?



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,348
Location: Poland

17 Jun 2021, 1:07 pm

Locked for review


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,348
Location: Poland

18 Jun 2021, 3:41 am

Unlocked. I hoped for some other moderator to take a deeper look but none had enough free time to notice much more than that the topic was inappropriate in The Haven.

Please, stay on topic, which is: bio-psycho-social model of human health and development.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.


badRobot
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 466

18 Jun 2021, 5:42 am

magz wrote:


Yes. When we are talking about nuanced view on causation of depression, from point of view of biopsychosocial model we must understand hierarchy and priority of factors. What is cause and what is symptom. What factors we need to address to eliminate the cause, not waste years and years playing whac-a-mole game eliminating symptoms and then end up having "treatment resistant chronic depression" because we never really addressed the root cause.

Despite popular myths spreading from debunked Beck's cognitive theory of depression negative thoughts and cognitive distortions are not causes of depression, but it's symptoms. PTSD is not cause of depression, it has very similar symptoms, strongly ingrained negative memories, easily brought up by triggers and leading to negative thoughts. Person suffering from PTSD can become depressed via psychosocial factors, but fundamentally PTSD is not a direct cause of depression.

We must take all factors into account, but it's very different from OP's fundamentally incorrect approach.

There must be widespread understanding that, for example, being upset by break up doesn't make you clinically depressed. What makes you depressed is coping with break up by sitting locked in your room, sleeping all day, spending sleepless nights watching tv and eating nothing, but ice cream out of a bucket.

Similarly, being bullied at school doesn't make you clinically depressed. What makes you depressed is coping with bullying and rejection by sitting locked in your room, spending days and nights playing videogames, reading comics and eating junk food.

And to add insult to injury, causation is often reverse. If you are in a happy relationship, but you end up watching tv all night and eat junk food and depression starts to creep in, you will ruin your relationship and then believe break up made you depressed. If you are not bullied, but spend too much time playing videogames and reading comics and depression begins to creep in it will lead to failures in social adaptation and bullying, then you will believe bullying made you depressed.

And to add even more insult to injury, cognitive distortions, symptoms of depression make depressed person believe he is a victim of bullying or rejection even when in reality this isn't true.

Having negative thoughts, attitude doesn't make you depressed. This is a symptom of depression. Trying to solve this problem by consciously trying to think positively will not eliminate the cause - depression.

To deal with those negative psychosocial factors you need mental power, not some abstract concept of strong personality, but physiological resources and conditions for your reward system, giving you motivation and grit, giving you ability to enjoy process and results of self-improvement.

90% of what you need to overcome depression and address psychosocial factors are biological factors: physical activity, sunlight, nutrition, sleep, fresh air.

But when we are talking about addressing those biological factors, psychosocial factors should be taken into account!

Psychological factor means your approach needs to be easy to comply, very specific, you need structure to make it all easy to understand and do even when you are depressed. Like "Sleeping with open window, 1 minute of intense burpees, 15 minutes of direct sunlight and 2 eggs a day keeps depression away".

Social factor means your approach needs to be accepted by peers and encouraged to make it more likely to be accepted as acted on.

Again, the only problematic factor on this forum is social. Religious rejection, dismissal and hostility, pretty much the same attitude as "depression isn't even a real thing, you are just lazy loser!! !!". The most ironic thing is that members who pretend to be the most understanding, informed and supportive are the most ignorant and hostile in this situation.



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,348
Location: Poland

19 Jun 2021, 5:06 am

 ! magz wrote:
No more personal confrontations!


During my course on psychology in college, depression was described as a vicious circle between these three aspects:
poor coping skills -> social isolation and/or unhealthy relationships -> low serotonin level -> poor coping skills...

The idea is that the circle can be broken at any level - the easiest for a given patient is prefered - but all three need to be cared for to prevent the depression soon coming back.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.


badRobot
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 466

19 Jun 2021, 5:55 am

magz wrote:
During my course on psychology in college, depression was described as a vicious circle between these three aspects:
poor coping skills -> social isolation and/or unhealthy relationships -> low serotonin level -> poor coping skills...

This is true to an extent, but we must understand that these aspects are not at the same levels of hierarchy. Some aspects are direct and some have only loose causative effect on direct aspects, there are also directional dependencies that can't be reversed. Beck's cognitive theory of depression based on false premise of negative thoughts being cause of depression. A lot of misunderstanding in this field sprouts from this mistake.

If you are not intentional about direct aspects, you are doomed to fail.

For example, your kid is depressed and believes the reason is bullying. This is subjective perspective. Bullying might have loose causative effect on onset of depression, it might be consequence of depression, it might be cognitive distortion, just perception of this kid that has nothing to do with reality.

If you transfer bullied kid to a friendlier school it doesn't guarantee this kid will stop spending days and nights playing videogames and reading comics if this is what he genuinely loves doing. Eliminating very loose social cause that might have causative effect at some point or just as likely was result of depression or just as likely was result of cognitive distortion, will not eliminate direct cause. This kid would stay depressed, but it would be rationalized to be caused by some other reason.

If you address biological aspect, it will improve this kid's mental power and might eliminate bullying issue without even addressing this problem explicitly. It is much easier to socialize or even stand up for yourself when you are not clinically depressed and have positive attitude. It is very possible that there was no bullying in the first place.

magz wrote:
The idea is that the circle can be broken at any level - the easiest for a given patient is prefered - but all three need to be cared for to prevent remission.

This is not true. This circle can't be broken at any level. It is impossible to improve your mental framework on psychological or social level without taking care of your physiology first. For a very simple reason: It requires learning. Learning is formation of new neural connections in your brain, reenforced by reward system, physiological processes like myelination, regulated by biochemistry.

If you are trying to learn how to socialize or how to deal with bullying when your capacity to learn is impaired you will inevitably fail.



magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,348
Location: Poland

19 Jun 2021, 6:06 am

I still think you overvalue the physiological level.
An example: a person is in an abusive relationship.
In this case, you usually can't move on without separation from the abuser (social aspect being the crucial one).
It's likely it won't be enough and other parts will need adressing, too - but as long as one stays in unhealthy close relationship with their abuser, other dimensions will be quickly clamped by their manipulative behaviors.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 76,336
Location: Queens, NYC

19 Jun 2021, 6:15 am

There are no “cure-all’s.” Depression must be treated on an individual basis. There are many causes for depression.

Sometimes, a physiological approach could work. Other times, it might not.

It’s bad to rely on one theory only.

Just like one must not rely on one theory for treatment of autism.

What works for one person might not work for another person.



badRobot
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 466

19 Jun 2021, 6:27 am

magz wrote:
I still think you overvalue the physiological level.
An example: a person is in an abusive relationship.
In this case, you usually can't move on without separation from the abuser (social aspect being the crucial one).
It's likely it won't be enough and other parts will need adressing, too - but as long as one stays in unhealthy close relationship with their abuser, other dimensions will be quickly clamped by their manipulative behaviors.


Yes, In this case causation is much stronger, but still emotional abuse doesn't directly make you clinically depressed, it makes you really-really upset, this is important difference. Coping with emotional abuse in counterproductive way is what makes abused person clinically depressed directly.

If manipulative behaviors include ridicule for attempts to change your diet or to workout this problem actually becomes a vicious circle with social factor being really important. I agree here. This is exactly the point of this conversation and reason of my frustration by situation on this forum.

But from subjective point of view of abused person, without external intervention it is still virtually impossible to resolve this situation when you are cognitively and mentally impaired by depression on physiological level. And taking into account cognitive distortions it's actually hard to determine whether this relationship is truly abusive. There is no way around it.



Last edited by badRobot on 19 Jun 2021, 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

badRobot
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 466

19 Jun 2021, 8:28 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are no “cure-all’s.” Depression must be treated on an individual basis. There are many causes for depression.

Sometimes, a physiological approach could work. Other times, it might not.

It’s bad to rely on one theory only.

Just like one must not rely on one theory for treatment of autism.

What works for one person might not work for another person.

This is fundamentally wrong perspective beginning from thinking of it as "cure". Taking care of physiological factors is essential for maintaining mental health. This applies to all people without exceptions. Just like with vitamins some people have it covered without paying much attention, some people need to be intentional and take supplements. It is logically incorrect to suggest "might not work for some people". Yes, some people have deeper underlying issues, but it doesn't mean being intentional in covering physiological factors is optional.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 76,336
Location: Queens, NYC

19 Jun 2021, 10:31 am

A holistic, flexible approach is the best approach.

Person-centered, rather than theory-centered.



badRobot
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 466

19 Jun 2021, 11:07 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
A holistic, flexible approach is the best approach.

Person-centered, rather than theory-centered.


Yes, I agree. But my approach doesn't contradict this in any way. These are some basic factors required for any flexible approach to work. And arguably in vast majority of cases of depression taking care of these factors are sufficient for recovery and prevention. This is pareto principle + occam's rasor.

If your car stalled at intersection it is not the brightest idea to start rebuilding the engine if you see your gas tank is empty.

If you are depressed it is not the brightest idea to start solving this problem by trying to address some social or psychological problems, dumping your allegedly abusive partner or quitting your allegedly hostile job, or even going to therapy if it's clear you are not covering essential physiological factors. Extremely likely this is the only real problem you have. In case it is not, you still need to cover these essential factors to know for sure and to have mental power to address social and psychological issues.