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badRobot
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24 Sep 2021, 7:43 am

dorkseid wrote:
badRobot wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I already have a bachelor's degree and have taken several courses over the years. But it doesn't matter how much I know, because every time I interview for a job my body language, tone of voice, eye contact, etc are all wrong the interviewer immediately dismisses me.

Formal education or degree is not actual learning. What we supposed to learn in a school or college to be successful in life is a side product of formal education, we supposed to learn how to get along with people, how to collaborate, how to communicate effectively, how to compensate of what we lack, like body language or tone, how to leverage our strengths and weaknesses. A lot of people just force their way through education, mechanically memorizing stuff and passing tests, without actually internalizing any useful knowledge, developing any useful skills or learning anything actually useful.


You mean all he things people on the spectrum are incapable of? That's like telling a paraplegic to learn how to walk.


People on the spectrum are not incapable of learning, they just need to put more effort into deliberately learning some things NTs pick up subconsciously by mimicking adults and peers. And that's not like telling a paraplegic to learn how to walk, it's like telling him to learn how to use motorized wheelchair and put effort into learning how to clearly communicate verbally instead of using inability to communicate with gestures and body language as an excuse.



dorkseid
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24 Sep 2021, 7:58 am

badRobot wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
badRobot wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I already have a bachelor's degree and have taken several courses over the years. But it doesn't matter how much I know, because every time I interview for a job my body language, tone of voice, eye contact, etc are all wrong the interviewer immediately dismisses me.

Formal education or degree is not actual learning. What we supposed to learn in a school or college to be successful in life is a side product of formal education, we supposed to learn how to get along with people, how to collaborate, how to communicate effectively, how to compensate of what we lack, like body language or tone, how to leverage our strengths and weaknesses. A lot of people just force their way through education, mechanically memorizing stuff and passing tests, without actually internalizing any useful knowledge, developing any useful skills or learning anything actually useful.


You mean all he things people on the spectrum are incapable of? That's like telling a paraplegic to learn how to walk.


People on the spectrum are not incapable of learning, they just need to put more effort into deliberately learning some things NTs pick up subconsciously by mimicking adults and peers. And that's not like telling a paraplegic to learn how to walk, it's like telling him to learn how to use motorized wheelchair and put effort into learning how to clearly communicate verbally instead of using inability to communicate with gestures and body language as an excuse.


I've done my best to learn all that, and I have made significant improvements. But regardless I will never be able to function %100 on the level of a neurotypical. And NTs will not accept me so long as I fail to meet them on their level at %100 of their capability. Most NTs do not possess the awareness to understand why people like us are struggling in the first place, and think we are simply "weird" or "creepy".

Once mastered, the operation of a motorized chair does not constantly require the debilitating amount of mental effort masking does. All the effort required to deliberately emulate what NTs intuit subconsciously is extremely exhausting and causes me to wear myself out much faster then I would otherwise which effects my ability to perform at work or take care of daily necessities. So the more successful I am meeting NT expectations the less capable I am of keeping up with work and life demands. It's a lose-lose.

What is spoon theory?



badRobot
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24 Sep 2021, 8:56 am

dorkseid wrote:
I've done my best to learn all that, and I have made significant improvements. But regardless I will never be able to function %100 on the level of a neurotypical. And NTs will not accept me so long as I fail to meet them on their level at %100 of their capability. Most NTs do not possess the awareness to understand why people like us are struggling in the first place, and think we are simply "weird" or "creepy".

Once mastered, the operation of a motorized chair does not constantly require the debilitating amount of mental effort masking does. All the effort required to deliberately emulate what NTs intuit subconsciously is extremely exhausting and causes me to wear myself out much faster then I would otherwise which effects my ability to perform at work or take care of daily necessities. So the more successful I am meeting NT expectations the less capable I am of keeping up with work and life demands. It's a lose-lose.

What is spoon theory?


First of all, for as long as you feel like you are "masking" you haven't actually learned it, you didn't internalize skill, you are using a very different brain circuitry to deliberately pretend instead for forming strong connections, automatic "muscle memory", basically it means you haven't done your best to develop this skill.

Secondly, you don't really need to "mask" anything if you learn to "own it", to not rely on your weaknesses and to leverage your strengths.

You are using your condition as an excuse to give up.

Again, simple questions:

Do you workout regularly?
Do you have enough direct sunlight every day?
Do you eat healthy food?
Do you regularly spend time just breathing fresh air, looking at trees, grass, water, animals?

If your answer to any of these questions is "no", you are supposed to come up with excuses why it can't be done instead of seeing what and how it can be done.

Honestly I'm wasting time with you. You don't have a goal to improve your wellbeing anymore, your goal is to win this argument. It is up to you, to take some small steps to improvement or to come up with another excuse, I don't really care, it's your life.



dorkseid
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24 Sep 2021, 6:04 pm

badRobot wrote:

First of all, for as long as you feel like you are "masking" you haven't actually learned it, you didn't internalize skill, you are using a very different brain circuitry to deliberately pretend instead for forming strong connections, automatic "muscle memory", basically it means you haven't done your best to develop this skill.

Secondly, you don't really need to "mask" anything if you learn to "own it", to not rely on your weaknesses and to leverage your strengths.


As an autistic, that is the limit of what I am capable of. I cannot simply "learn" to be neurotypical. If you think otherwise, than you either do not understand what autism is or you are delusional.

badRobot wrote:
You are using your condition as an excuse to give up.


How f***ing dare you?! You have no f***ing clue how hard and how long I tried everything within my ability to appease my family, my ex-fiancé, employers, or just society in general. And none of it ever mattered because nobody would ever give me a chance.

badRobot wrote:
Again, simple questions:

Do you workout regularly?
Do you have enough direct sunlight every day?
Do you eat healthy food?
Do you regularly spend time just breathing fresh air, looking at trees, grass, water, animals?


That is not always possible currently, as I am juggling a full-time job and grad school in the middle of a global pandemic and a never-ending heat wave. But I did in the past. For most of my life I did not own a vehicle which meant I was forced to walk miles to work or anywhere else I needed to go. Is that enough exercise and sunshine for your liking? But yet somehow that did not magically cure my feelings of isolation and loneliness. Its almost as if it was the lack of family and social support and constant rejection and abuse from society at large that was causing those feelings.

badRobot wrote:
You don't have a goal to improve your wellbeing anymore,


No. I'm done with that. One: I'm exhausted from constantly trying to appease everyone my entire life and getting nowhere. And two: there is no longer a point to trying at my age. I'm too old to ever catch up to where I should be in life by this age.



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25 Sep 2021, 3:57 am

dorkseid wrote:
As an autistic, that is the limit of what I am capable of. I cannot simply "learn" to be neurotypical. If you think otherwise, than you either do not understand what autism is or you are delusional.

No, when you internalize any skill, you can do it effortlessly within the limits of what you are capable of. If you struggle every time, it means you haven't internalize it, just memorized.

dorkseid wrote:
How f***ing dare you?! You have no f***ing clue how hard and how long I tried everything within my ability to appease my family, my ex-fiancé, employers, or just society in general. And none of it ever mattered because nobody would ever give me a chance.

I don't care how hard you tried to appease others. I keep telling you again and again, you have cause and effect reversed. Yes, none of it ever mattered and none of it will ever really matter, that's my point.

dorkseid wrote:
That is not always possible currently, as I am ....


Then you are supposed to feel miserable and unable to enjoy being single, unable to enjoy dating a girl you are dreaming about, unable to enjoy traveling the world if you had money, unable really learn, unable to get a better job. Any perfectly healthy and otherwise successful person supposed to feel miserable if they neglect even one of these basic needs. This is NORMAL human condition, like you are supposed to be dehydrated if drinking enough water "is not always possible currently".



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25 Sep 2021, 5:13 am

badRobot wrote:
Then you are supposed to feel miserable and unable to enjoy being single, unable to enjoy dating a girl you are dreaming about, unable to enjoy traveling the world if you had money, unable really learn, unable to get a better job. Any perfectly healthy and otherwise successful person supposed to feel miserable if they neglect even one of these basic needs. This is NORMAL human condition, like you are supposed to be dehydrated if drinking enough water "is not always possible currently".


So you just know everything about me now?



badRobot
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25 Sep 2021, 6:23 am

dorkseid wrote:
badRobot wrote:
Then you are supposed to feel miserable and unable to enjoy being single, unable to enjoy dating a girl you are dreaming about, unable to enjoy traveling the world if you had money, unable really learn, unable to get a better job. Any perfectly healthy and otherwise successful person supposed to feel miserable if they neglect even one of these basic needs. This is NORMAL human condition, like you are supposed to be dehydrated if drinking enough water "is not always possible currently".


So you just know everything about me now?


Do you workout regularly?
Do you have enough direct sunlight every day?
Do you eat healthy food?
Do you regularly spend time just breathing fresh air, looking at trees, grass, water, animals?

I know enough to understand that if your answer to any of questions is "no" you are supposed to feel miserable and hopeless no matter what and whatever you think you feel miserable and hopeless about doesn't matter at this point.

dorkseid wrote:
Is that enough exercise and sunshine for your liking?


If you believe I think you don't deserve any better just because you are lazy or something, you are wrong. This is simple objective neurological and biochemical cause-effect.



dorkseid
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26 Sep 2021, 2:47 am

I've already answered your questions. Now explain why nothing was better when I was doing everything you say I should.



badRobot
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26 Sep 2021, 3:34 am

dorkseid wrote:
I've already answered your questions. Now explain why nothing was better when I was doing everything you say I should.


First of all, no, you didn't answer confident "yes" to all questions. Walking is not exercise. From what you said, you might have "sunlight" covered, that's all. What about the rest? Can you honestly say there was a period of time when answer to all questions was confident "yes" consistently for at least couple weeks?

Secondly, if your answer to any of these questions is "no" as we speak, you can't really say whether something was better in your past, your cognitive bias is retroactive, affects your memories just as much as it affects your outlook.

Thirdly, these questions are not mine, I'm not asking you anything, bugging you with these questions or something is not my point, I don't owe you any explanations. YOU should ask these questions and answer these questions honestly to YOURSELF if you want to understand why that is the case:

dorkseid wrote:
I've got a Switch, and gaming laptop, a Fujifilm X-T30, and stack of Marvel and DC omnibuses. And they all just sit in my room collecting dust as I am either too busy with grad school or just too depressed to enjoy them.



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26 Sep 2021, 8:39 am

badRobot wrote:
First of all, no, you didn't answer confident "yes" to all questions. Walking is not exercise. From what you said, you might have "sunlight" covered, that's all. What about the rest? Can you honestly say there was a period of time when answer to all questions was confident "yes" consistently for at least couple weeks?


I kind of expected this. No matter how much I exercise, you are just going to say is that I either did not do the right exercises or did not do them enough.

badRobot wrote:
Secondly, if your answer to any of these questions is "no" as we speak, you can't really say whether something was better in your past, your cognitive bias is retroactive, affects your memories just as much as it affects your outlook.


I am not relying on memory. I have the testimony of friends and documentation from my doctor and therapists.



badRobot
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26 Sep 2021, 9:20 am

dorkseid wrote:
I kind of expected this. No matter how much I exercise, you are just going to say is that I either did not do the right exercises or did not do them enough.

10 minutes or warmup and 1 minute of HIIT every day is enough. Walking is much better than not moving at all, but you can't seriously consider it to be a real exercise or workout unless you are like 90 years old.

dorkseid wrote:
I am not relying on memory. I have the testimony of friends and documentation from my doctor and therapists.

How do you process this information? Are you some transcendent being, absolute objective truth somehow bypasses your physical brain? No, your brain cherrypicks whatever fits its current emotional state.



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26 Sep 2021, 11:25 am

badRobot wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I am not relying on memory. I have the testimony of friends and documentation from my doctor and therapists.

How do you process this information? Are you some transcendent being, absolute objective truth somehow bypasses your physical brain? No, your brain cherrypicks whatever fits its current emotional state.


Statements like "experiences severe feelings of loneliness and isolation" are pretty straight forward.



AprilR
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26 Sep 2021, 11:37 am

I think they mean that you have no responsibilities that come with a relationship.
There are social expectations that come with being in a relationship at least where i live. Men have to have a good job, car and such.
Women have to be nurturing and good homemakers and Mothers.

Even in the western part of the world i am sure that it is expected that You have to get along with your partners' friends, tolerate their bad habits, tolerate the parts of them that you don't like etc etc. You have a lot less freedom when you are in a relationship.



badRobot
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26 Sep 2021, 11:40 am

dorkseid wrote:
badRobot wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I am not relying on memory. I have the testimony of friends and documentation from my doctor and therapists.

How do you process this information? Are you some transcendent being, absolute objective truth somehow bypasses your physical brain? No, your brain cherrypicks whatever fits its current emotional state.


Statements like "experiences severe feelings of loneliness and isolation" are pretty straight forward.


First of all, this is just one of those "cherries" your brain picks, yeah, these things are pretty straightforward, but it doesn't mean this is full picture. So you argument is meaningless in this context.

Secondly:
badRobot wrote:
No, you didn't answer confident "yes" to all questions. Walking is not exercise. From what you said, you might have "sunlight" covered, that's all. What about the rest? Can you honestly say there was a period of time when answer to all questions was confident "yes" consistently for at least couple weeks?



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26 Sep 2021, 12:30 pm

badRobot wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
Statements like "experiences severe feelings of loneliness and isolation" are pretty straight forward.


First of all, this is just one of those "cherries" your brain picks, yeah, these things are pretty straightforward, but it doesn't mean this is full picture. So you argument is meaningless in this context.


I have documentation from medical professionals that I still lonely and depressed even when I was exercising regularly. That completely obliterates your argument. You remind me of a desperate religious apologist who keeps coming up with increasingly absurd mental gymnastics to rationalize their position. Clearly my constant feelings of loneliness and isolation are the direct result of loneliness and social isolation. I suppose you'll tell me next that the gaping hole in my side has absolutely nothing to do with the pool of blood in laying in.



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26 Sep 2021, 12:32 pm

0ut of interest, have you tried online dating?