Increasing popularity of friends-first approach

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cyberdad
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24 Mar 2023, 12:37 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
The advice you give, currently, carries heavily the weight of how-you-felt back then. Trauma seldom makes for good advice.


Actually lived experience is considered the best teacher for others. I'm trying my best to be as authentic about how I felt, but my 32 yr old self is far different to my 55 year old self. I might have been less worried about how the women felt and little more "shrug the shoulders". I've had time to reflect and realise now the magnitude of the impact of my mistakes



Pepe
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24 Mar 2023, 12:39 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
Pepe wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Also, emotional discipline can absolutely exist without integrity. Con-artists live in this domain. But you'd be hard-pressed to maintain personal integrity, without emotional discipline.


Not in the context I was using.


Yes, well, while most people use context as illumination to add clarity, as a flashlight or a laser beam, to make things easier to see and pinpoint - your "context" is oft provocatively offered in the way a matador wields a cape, dangling it as a target only to be pulled aside at the last second, to then be dangled again in a new location. It makes for a great show, but it's still just a "bunch of bull" running around...


It is permissible to attack skunks.
Please continue. 8)


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24 Mar 2023, 12:43 am

cyberdad wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
The advice you give, currently, carries heavily the weight of how-you-felt back then. Trauma seldom makes for good advice.


Actually lived experience is considered the best teacher for others. I'm trying my best to be as authentic about how I felt, but my 32 yr old self is far different to my 55 year old self. I might have been less worried about how the women felt and little more "shrug the shoulders". I've had time to reflect and realise now the magnitude of the impact of my mistakes


It pains me to say this...
But...I...have...to...agree....with ....you.
That was bloody exhausting. <sigh> :mrgreen:


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Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
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cyberdad
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24 Mar 2023, 12:46 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
The advice you give, currently, carries heavily the weight of how-you-felt back then. Trauma seldom makes for good advice.


Actually lived experience is considered the best teacher for others. I'm trying my best to be as authentic about how I felt, but my 32 yr old self is far different to my 55 year old self. I might have been less worried about how the women felt and little more "shrug the shoulders". I've had time to reflect and realise now the magnitude of the impact of my mistakes


It pains me to say this...
But...I...have...to...agree....with ....you.
That was bloody exhausting. <sigh> :mrgreen:


Glad we see eye to eye

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Pepe
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24 Mar 2023, 12:50 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
The advice you give, currently, carries heavily the weight of how-you-felt back then. Trauma seldom makes for good advice.


Actually lived experience is considered the best teacher for others. I'm trying my best to be as authentic about how I felt, but my 32 yr old self is far different to my 55 year old self. I might have been less worried about how the women felt and little more "shrug the shoulders". I've had time to reflect and realise now the magnitude of the impact of my mistakes


It pains me to say this...
But...I...have...to...agree....with ....you.
That was bloody exhausting. <sigh> :mrgreen:


Glad we see eye to eye

Image
Image


I tend to agree with you more when there isn't a bottle of schnapps around. :mrgreen:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


uncommondenominator
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24 Mar 2023, 1:59 am

cyberdad wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
The advice you give, currently, carries heavily the weight of how-you-felt back then. Trauma seldom makes for good advice.


Actually lived experience is considered the best teacher for others.


There are a number of caveats that need to be met for this to be universally true. Just cos someone has been doing something for 20 years, doesn't mean they've been doing it right for 20 years. For example, a woman can date five horrible men, and then decide that all men are utter scum. Her actual lived experience validates this, cos "literally every man" she dated was in fact awful. All five of them. So, it's not exactly a fair comment, is it? Despite her "actual lived experience", that doesn't mean that "stay away from men, they're all evil!" is good advice.

While you keep telling me that you're just channeling how you felt then, the advice you give to people in other threads, in the present, even when not talking about your past troubles, still sounds like advice from an angry young man anxious to be around women who show romantic interest in them.



Last edited by uncommondenominator on 24 Mar 2023, 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

uncommondenominator
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24 Mar 2023, 2:28 am

Pepe wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Pepe wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Also, emotional discipline can absolutely exist without integrity. Con-artists live in this domain. But you'd be hard-pressed to maintain personal integrity, without emotional discipline.


Not in the context I was using.


Yes, well, while most people use context as illumination to add clarity, as a flashlight or a laser beam, to make things easier to see and pinpoint - your "context" is oft provocatively offered in the way a matador wields a cape, dangling it as a target only to be pulled aside at the last second, to then be dangled again in a new location. It makes for a great show, but it's still just a "bunch of bull" running around...


It is permissible to attack skunks.
Please continue. 8)


It is acceptable to go after ideas. I made a metaphor about context. Are you a context?

Though it's cute the way you pretend you've never been told that before. Like, all the time.

If you don't remember, I can probably find them. I'm pretty handy with the search function. I believe fnord and cornflake have both mentioned as much, very recently. Would you like me to see if I can find the posts?

In the meantime, since you asked so very nicely...

Your posting style and manner of arguing remind me of the type of delinquent who antagonizes people when nobody is looking, then plays the victim when their victim loses their cool and everyone is looking.

But I'm sure you're a lovely suddenly-non-binary oracle despite my hyperpartisan leftist groupthink biased impressions :heart:



Pepe
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24 Mar 2023, 2:30 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
The advice you give, currently, carries heavily the weight of how-you-felt back then. Trauma seldom makes for good advice.


Actually lived experience is considered the best teacher for others.


There are a number of caveats that need to be met for this to be universally true. Just cos someone has been doing something for 20 years, doesn't mean they've been doing it right for 20 years. For example, a woman can date five horrible men, and then decide that all men are utter scum. Her actual lived experience validates this, cos "literally every man" she dated was in fact awful. All five of them. So, it's not really a fair comment, is it?

While you keep telling me that you're just channeling how you felt then, the advice you give to people in other threads, in the present, even when not talking about your past troubles, still sounds like advice from an angry young man anxious to be around women who show romantic interest in them.


MOST ppl learn from their experiences and try not to repeat their mistakes.


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Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


Pepe
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24 Mar 2023, 2:32 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
Pepe wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Pepe wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Also, emotional discipline can absolutely exist without integrity. Con-artists live in this domain. But you'd be hard-pressed to maintain personal integrity, without emotional discipline.


Not in the context I was using.


Yes, well, while most people use context as illumination to add clarity, as a flashlight or a laser beam, to make things easier to see and pinpoint - your "context" is oft provocatively offered in the way a matador wields a cape, dangling it as a target only to be pulled aside at the last second, to then be dangled again in a new location. It makes for a great show, but it's still just a "bunch of bull" running around...


It is permissible to attack skunks.
Please continue. 8)


It is acceptable to go after ideas. I made a metaphor about context. Are you a context?

Though it's cute the way you pretend you've never been told that before. Like, all the time.

If you don't remember, I can probably find them. I'm pretty handy with the search function. I believe fnord and cornflake have both mentioned as much, very recently. Would you like me to see if I can find the posts?

In the meantime, since you asked so very nicely...

Your posting style and manner of arguing remind me of the type of delinquent who antagonizes people when nobody is looking, then plays the victim when their victim loses their cool and everyone is looking.

But I'm sure you're a lovely suddenly-non-binary oracle despite my hyperpartisan leftist groupthink biased impressions :heart:


Please continue to attempt to insult me.
Water off a ducks back. :mrgreen:


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Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


uncommondenominator
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24 Mar 2023, 2:35 am

Pepe wrote:
MOST ppl learn from their experiences


:lmao:

Even if that were even remotely true, that doesn't mean that WHAT they "learned" is useful, or correct.

Not unlike a spoiled brat that wrecks things or causes havoc to get attention. Just cos they "learned from experience" that being a punk gets them attention, doesn't mean it's a good lesson.



Pepe
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24 Mar 2023, 2:37 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
Pepe wrote:
MOST ppl learn from their experiences


:lmao:

Even if that were even remotely true, that doesn't mean that WHAT they "learned" is useful, or correct.

Not unlike a spoiled brat that wrecks things or causes havoc to get attention. Just cos they "learned from experience" that being a punk gets them attention, doesn't mean it's a good lesson.


You continually distort the context that others are using.
"Interesting."


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Laughter is the best medicine.
"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Glory to Ukraine.


uncommondenominator
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24 Mar 2023, 2:40 am

Pepe wrote:

Please continue to attempt to insult me.
Water off a ducks back. :mrgreen:


I have not insulted you once. Quite the contrary, I called you "lovely". That's an insult?

I've had some different words for your thoughts and behaviors, and have labeled them as such, quite clearly.

Aren't you a skunk though? What do ducks have to do with this?

Even negative attention is attention, innit?



uncommondenominator
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24 Mar 2023, 2:41 am

Pepe wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
Pepe wrote:
MOST ppl learn from their experiences


:lmao:

Even if that were even remotely true, that doesn't mean that WHAT they "learned" is useful, or correct.

Not unlike a spoiled brat that wrecks things or causes havoc to get attention. Just cos they "learned from experience" that being a punk gets them attention, doesn't mean it's a good lesson.


You continually distort the context that others are using.
"Interesting."


Not in the context I was using.



cyberdad
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24 Mar 2023, 4:59 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
For example, a woman can date five horrible men, and then decide that all men are utter scum. Her actual lived experience validates this, cos "literally every man" she dated was in fact awful. All five of them. So, it's not exactly a fair comment, is it? Despite her "actual lived experience", that doesn't mean that "stay away from men, they're all evil!" is good advice..


In the last decade there's been a movement in psychology back toward qualitative experiences and away from raw statistics. Representative themes in a person's account can be classified as "universal" to people in their situation.

Simply sampling larger and larger proportions of individuals correlating 1-2 variables (on it's own) is narrow in it's scope and the addition of qualitative lived experience enriches the scope of the datasets.



MaxE
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24 Mar 2023, 9:41 am

cyberdad wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
but when you focused on personality over looks with her friend, when her eating disorder overshadowed her good looks, you likely avoided trouble rather than inviting it. Funny that. .


It was a little more complicated than just the eating disorder.
So Woman A - 18 yr girl who friendzoned me
Woman B - 20 yr old attractive mutual friend who I met frequently but had no idea she liked/had feelings for me

So one day I walked past a well known men's establishment and saw Woman B walk out dressed in a skimpy outfit. We both locked eyes and said nothing, I shrugged my shoulders and figured "so that's how she pays her bills". She was shocked and stared but said nothing.

The very next day I got a call from Woman A whom I had already ghosted demanding why I hadn't called her and what was going on. Then once she establshed I didn't want to have anything to do with her she told me all about Woman B and how she really liked me and how the two of them (A and B) were going to engineer me falling in love with her and us getting married and then the three of us being lifelong friends (Woman A had no interest in marriage or kids).

But apparently Woman B had told Woman A about me seeing her walking out of a gentleman's establishment wearing what I can only describe as a "hooker's uniform" she felt completely deflated and went home and cried hysterically. She thought she had blown it with me. I of course had no idea.

Bottom line- I knew she had a eating disorder because after going out to lunch with her a few times she would go and throw up her meal in the bathroom which I thought was gross. After seeing she earns money in a massage parlour any vestigal interest in Woman B as a result of the revelations from Woman A dwindled to zero.

I would not necessarily have dumped B on the basis of this occurrence. It would have depended on how much I liked her etc.


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uncommondenominator
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24 Mar 2023, 3:29 pm

cyberdad wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
For example, a woman can date five horrible men, and then decide that all men are utter scum. Her actual lived experience validates this, cos "literally every man" she dated was in fact awful. All five of them. So, it's not exactly a fair comment, is it? Despite her "actual lived experience", that doesn't mean that "stay away from men, they're all evil!" is good advice..


In the last decade there's been a movement in psychology back toward qualitative experiences and away from raw statistics. Representative themes in a person's account can be classified as "universal" to people in their situation.

Simply sampling larger and larger proportions of individuals correlating 1-2 variables (on it's own) is narrow in it's scope and the addition of qualitative lived experience enriches the scope of the datasets.


That's neither what that means, nor how that works.

While you are right that there has been a shift from traditional psychotherapy, which tends to generically pathologize causes and symptoms, in favor of a more individual-behavioral Gestalt approach that looks specifically at the individual's own situations and reactions, the point of this is that conclusions made about individuals are LESS applicable to others, not more. It's not a matter of adding more variables, nor does statistics have anything to do with it, aside from acknowledging that, statistically, no two people are terribly likely to have the same problem, with the same response, in the exact same situation, to which the same solution can be applied.

Furthermore, experimentally, more than two variables makes it too difficult to isolate a potential correlation (or potential causation), given that the interaction become too complex to isolate which variable, or variables, are doing exactly what, and to what extent. This is why many experiments do, at most, a 2x2 ANOVA. Adding more variables doesn't help.

It seems like you're conflating behavioral intervention with experimental observation.