Getting rid of "choir boy" and "dead butterfly" impression

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Nades
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08 Jul 2021, 7:26 am

Two days ago I went in a date. This was my fourth date with this particular woman. I thought it went pretty OK. We talked about petty neighbours, her zoom classes, sport and how overbearing the football has been, the best brands of rum and gin.

After having a go at arranging a 5th date she said I felt about her differently than she did about me. I asked her in what way and she said she didn't feel any butterflies. I asked her if she meant butterflies at first sight as it was odd to go on 4 dates if that was the case. She responded with "dead butterflies, sorry"

This seems to be a recurring theme. I have little trouble getting past a first date half of the time but they always fizzle out and the complaint is they didn't connect. I was called a "choir boy" once too.

Obviously this is a bit rattling to the confidence for women to say this regularly. Being called nice and supportive while sucker punching with the phrase "dead butterflies" or "choir boy".

My question is. How on earth does a guy shake such an image? It's probably the main thing holding me back with women.



kraftiekortie
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08 Jul 2021, 7:40 am

All I can say is:

Maybe this was for the best. At least you know now.

Anyway.....there are plenty of women out there who prefer "choirboys" after their experiences with "bad boys."


Yep....I experienced this sort of thing as well. Women used to get bored of me because I was too "goody-goody." All i can say is: Tough Nuggies on them! :P



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08 Jul 2021, 8:02 am

It is a problem for me too, because I'm the opposite of "choir boy" when I'm comfortable among people I know very well. So this first impression can't be further from who I am in reality. I don't have a recipe or something, but I generally stopped giving a s**t and act as if I'm trying to scare women away by acting almost overly idiotic and date only those who would tolerate the real me :D



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08 Jul 2021, 8:26 am

Seems like Nades may have contracted a variant of the  Nice Guy™ Syndrome 


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Nades
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08 Jul 2021, 11:48 am

Thanks for the replies. Don't want to reply to each of you because I don't want to make everyone's eyes bleed.

Yup, nice guy syndrome is probably it too. A surprisingly accurate description of me in the link. Unfortunately autism does attract the wrong type of first appearance for many and to be honest, second, third, fourth and fifth and is one hell of a hard habit to get out of.



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09 Jul 2021, 8:54 am

Fnord wrote:
Seems like Nades may have contracted a variant of the  Nice Guy™ Syndrome 
I did not think this reading his post. "Nice guys" tend to not get a 1st date because the women do not find em attractive unless it's a pity date with a woman friend who feels sorry for em. Basically the "nice guys" don't get a real chance because the women are attracted to the "bad boys". & for those of you reading who believe that the term "nice guy" really means a guy who is hateful & resentful of women because he feels entitled to a date for being nice to them, those guys still do not usually get 1st dates & they would not be described as a "choir boy" by the women. I actually was not sure what the term "choir boy" meant in this context when I 1st read the post. That term would not be used where I'm from. The closest religious term would be "alter boy" but I never heard of a guy being compared in that way either. I wonder if the women get the impression that Nades is not very into them & think he is mostly wanting to be their friend instead of their romantic sexual partner. Maybe the women get an asexual or gay vibe from him after a couple dates because he's not taking the initiative like he's not inviting them over to his place, not offering to bring them or walk them home or not hinting to go in with em if he does, not initiating kissing & such things. If that is the case it may help if he were to try to take more initiative with that stuff. Or he could go for broke & say that he likes them(telling them what he likes about em could help) & that he wants to be respectful & doesn't wanna cross any boundaries or make em feel pressured or anything. I personally would go for broke because I'm very direct & straightforward & really need others to be that way with me, I make a complete fool of myself when I try to hint, I only got my 1st & current girlfriend because they were direct with me.


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Fnord
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09 Jul 2021, 9:11 am

nick007 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Seems like Nades may have contracted a variant of the  Nice Guy™ Syndrome 
I did not think this reading his post. "Nice guys" tend to not get a 1st date [...]
Many Nice Guys™ have dated, gotten married, fathered children, and then been divorced because their wives "needed" something more in their lives than a man who was always kind, generous, soft-spoken, supportive, and helpful.


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Nades
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09 Jul 2021, 10:08 am

Fnord wrote:
nick007 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Seems like Nades may have contracted a variant of the  Nice Guy™ Syndrome 
I did not think this reading his post. "Nice guys" tend to not get a 1st date [...]
Many Nice Guys™ have dated, gotten married, fathered children, and then been divorced because their wives "needed" something more in their lives than a man who was always kind, generous, soft-spoken, supportive, and helpful.


Seeing there is a roughly 50/50 ratio of men and women. I noticed for every person with "Nice Guy Syndrome" there is a female equivalent called "Desperate 35 year old childless woman syndrome". Ironically I made a thread shortly before this one on a individual who looking back had nice guys as boyfriends.

Oh how some will regret being picky. No sympathy from me.

I also like the trade mark you attach to nice guys syndrome. It's become very mainstream now.



Nades
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09 Jul 2021, 10:10 am

nick007 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Seems like Nades may have contracted a variant of the  Nice Guy™ Syndrome 
I did not think this reading his post. "Nice guys" tend to not get a 1st date because the women do not find em attractive unless it's a pity date with a woman friend who feels sorry for em. Basically the "nice guys" don't get a real chance because the women are attracted to the "bad boys". & for those of you reading who believe that the term "nice guy" really means a guy who is hateful & resentful of women because he feels entitled to a date for being nice to them, those guys still do not usually get 1st dates & they would not be described as a "choir boy" by the women. I actually was not sure what the term "choir boy" meant in this context when I 1st read the post. That term would not be used where I'm from. The closest religious term would be "alter boy" but I never heard of a guy being compared in that way either. I wonder if the women get the impression that Nades is not very into them & think he is mostly wanting to be their friend instead of their romantic sexual partner. Maybe the women get an asexual or gay vibe from him after a couple dates because he's not taking the initiative like he's not inviting them over to his place, not offering to bring them or walk them home or not hinting to go in with em if he does, not initiating kissing & such things. If that is the case it may help if he were to try to take more initiative with that stuff. Or he could go for broke & say that he likes them(telling them what he likes about em could help) & that he wants to be respectful & doesn't wanna cross any boundaries or make em feel pressured or anything. I personally would go for broke because I'm very direct & straightforward & really need others to be that way with me, I make a complete fool of myself when I try to hint, I only got my 1st & current girlfriend because they were direct with me.


This is a good idea too. It's hard to judge some people though. Some women hate being kissed even after the 5th date while others insist after the first.



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09 Jul 2021, 10:47 am

Nades wrote:
Two days ago I went in a date. This was my fourth date with this particular woman. I thought it went pretty OK. We talked about petty neighbours, her zoom classes, sport and how overbearing the football has been, the best brands of rum and gin.

After having a go at arranging a 5th date she said I felt about her differently than she did about me. I asked her in what way and she said she didn't feel any butterflies. I asked her if she meant butterflies at first sight as it was odd to go on 4 dates if that was the case. She responded with "dead butterflies, sorry"

This seems to be a recurring theme. I have little trouble getting past a first date half of the time but they always fizzle out and the complaint is they didn't connect. I was called a "choir boy" once too.

Obviously this is a bit rattling to the confidence for women to say this regularly. Being called nice and supportive while sucker punching with the phrase "dead butterflies" or "choir boy".

My question is. How on earth does a guy shake such an image? It's probably the main thing holding me back with women.

Or maybe instead of changing your "image," you need to seek a different kind of woman, one who will appreciate you for who you are?

Where have you been finding these women? Maybe you need to look elsewhere?

IMO anyone who thinks a good relationship is based on "butterflies" is extremely immature and out of touch with reality.

On the other hand, as for complaints about not "connecting," this probably means you and the woman don't have enough in common, which may mean that you need to find women with whom you have more in common.


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09 Jul 2021, 10:52 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
[...] IMO anyone who thinks a good relationship is based on "butterflies" is extremely immature and out of touch with reality. [...]
What about "chemistry" and "sparks"?  Are "butterflies" not on the same level?

In my single days, women distanced themselves from me because they felt neither "chemistry" nor "sparks" with me.


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Nades
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09 Jul 2021, 11:03 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Nades wrote:
Two days ago I went in a date. This was my fourth date with this particular woman. I thought it went pretty OK. We talked about petty neighbours, her zoom classes, sport and how overbearing the football has been, the best brands of rum and gin.

After having a go at arranging a 5th date she said I felt about her differently than she did about me. I asked her in what way and she said she didn't feel any butterflies. I asked her if she meant butterflies at first sight as it was odd to go on 4 dates if that was the case. She responded with "dead butterflies, sorry"

This seems to be a recurring theme. I have little trouble getting past a first date half of the time but they always fizzle out and the complaint is they didn't connect. I was called a "choir boy" once too.

Obviously this is a bit rattling to the confidence for women to say this regularly. Being called nice and supportive while sucker punching with the phrase "dead butterflies" or "choir boy".

My question is. How on earth does a guy shake such an image? It's probably the main thing holding me back with women.

Or maybe instead of changing your "image," you need to seek a different kind of woman, one who will appreciate you for who you are?

Where have you been finding these women? Maybe you need to look elsewhere?

IMO anyone who thinks a good relationship is based on "butterflies" is extremely immature and out of touch with reality.

On the other hand, as for complaints about not "connecting," this probably means you and the woman don't have enough in common, which may mean that you need to find women with whom you have more in common.


I think she had ASD herself which was my first time dealing with a date that I suspect had ASD. She lost her virginity very late and used the Alister from the video game Dragon Age as her ideal man which is a red flag when combined together. I think once people get to their 30s and beyond it's the "bigger picture" that matters more and not butterflies. The men who give women butterflies have had a ring put on them long ago and are probably well and truly settled down with their own families. An Alister just isn't floating around at that age and waiting for one is unrealistic. With her baggage I think she's in for a hard time on the dating scene if she's shooting down guys who have achieved higher standards than what she's achieved herself. (She's taking zoom classes every Wednesday on creative writing and crafts.....no job, car or house.....unwise to be waiting for a hunk given her position in life)



Nades
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09 Jul 2021, 11:06 am

Fnord wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
[...] IMO anyone who thinks a good relationship is based on "butterflies" is extremely immature and out of touch with reality. [...]
What about "chemistry" and "sparks"?  Are "butterflies" not on the same level?

In my single days, women distanced themselves from me because they felt neither "chemistry" nor "sparks" with me.


I think butterflies is more like the type of crush you get when you're younger and is heavily looks based and romance. Chemistry is getting along well and "matching" beyond romance and looks. They could overlap a lot though as they're just basic words and could both mean exactly the same depending on the individuals definition.

Not many people know what "butterflies" truly mean.



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10 Jul 2021, 5:58 pm

Nades wrote:
Not many people know what "butterflies" truly mean.

"Butterflies" (a.k.a. "butterflies in your tummy") means a tingly feeling throughout your body, primarily in your abdomen and upper legs, due to extreme excitement, as if you're a big balloon with butterflies flying around inside. Many people experience it in the context of a romantic crush/infatuation.

I've experienced it in the context of some of my special interests, but not in the context of romantic crushes -- to which, luckily, I am not prone. Frankly I wouldn't want to experience "butterflies" in the context of a primary life partnership, in which I've always wanted comfortable intimacy and companionship rather than emotional fireworks.

It seems to me that people who want "butterflies" in their relationships are unlikely to form a lasting relationship. No matter how wonderful one's partner is, the "butterflies" can't possibly last indefinitely.


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Nades
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11 Jul 2021, 9:21 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Nades wrote:
Not many people know what "butterflies" truly mean.

"Butterflies" (a.k.a. "butterflies in your tummy") means a tingly feeling throughout your body, primarily in your abdomen and upper legs, due to extreme excitement, as if you're a big balloon with butterflies flying around inside. Many people experience it in the context of a romantic crush/infatuation.

I've experienced it in the context of some of my special interests, but not in the context of romantic crushes -- to which, luckily, I am not prone. Frankly I wouldn't want to experience "butterflies" in the context of a primary life partnership, in which I've always wanted comfortable intimacy and companionship rather than emotional fireworks.

It seems to me that people who want "butterflies" in their relationships are unlikely to form a lasting relationship. No matter how wonderful one's partner is, the "butterflies" can't possibly last indefinitely.


Yeah I think butterflies is more based on looks. I get the same feeling looking at a hot 20 year old but living with one long term will probably drive me nuts. Perhaps with women there is also a lot of romance involved with getting butterflies but again it's

She seemed like an immature woman in person. Well spoken but definitely had an aspie vibe and seemed whimsical with her outlooks and inexperienced with typical life. Very plain and not very capable herself but seemed to want a man who's a full package and more.



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11 Jul 2021, 3:59 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Nades wrote:
Not many people know what "butterflies" truly mean.

"Butterflies" (a.k.a. "butterflies in your tummy") means a tingly feeling throughout your body, primarily in your abdomen and upper legs, due to extreme excitement, as if you're a big balloon with butterflies flying around inside. Many people experience it in the context of a romantic crush/infatuation.

I've experienced it in the context of some of my special interests, but not in the context of romantic crushes -- to which, luckily, I am not prone. Frankly I wouldn't want to experience "butterflies" in the context of a primary life partnership, in which I've always wanted comfortable intimacy and companionship rather than emotional fireworks.

It seems to me that people who want "butterflies" in their relationships are unlikely to form a lasting relationship. No matter how wonderful one's partner is, the "butterflies" can't possibly last indefinitely.


I'm going to go out on a limb and say it all depends on the person and circumstances.... I've had moments of butterflies in long term and stable relationships. I don't think it's impossible or unhealthy.


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