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Sweetleaf
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17 Sep 2021, 12:34 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
PhosphorusDecree wrote:
Some circular logic going on here. Only a physically attractive man can "get girls", so if a man can get girls, he must be physically attractive despite any evidence to the contrary. Only a physically unattractive man can't get girls, so if a man can't get girls, he must be physically unattractive, again despite any evidence to the contrary. This is a theory custom-made to be untestable against reality. If any evidence against it is advanced, you can just pick up the metaphorical goalposts and run like mad. Goes with the incel-culture theme of getting trapped in self-referential loops instead of looking at the real world.


The physical attractiveness of men, as perceived by women, is a spectrum. Really good-looking guys are one extreme, circus freaks are the other. Most men are neither. Most men's overall looks slide down this spectrum until the line between passable and ugly is hit.

Although most men aren't super good-looking, and maybe not even that great looking to women, they are indeed passable. But once the line is crossed into ugly territory, there's no making up for it. And that line comes well before circus freak territory.

I see the parallels with Autism. Rainman is an extreme case of Autism, but there are "higher-functioning" autists who still fall below the NT line. Autism affects them, but since they don't seem as extreme an example of Rain Man, people accuse them of not being autistic.

Same is true for that ugly line. Elephant Man is one extreme case of ugliness. There are men that are further up and not as ugly, but still fall below women's threshold of acceptable attractiveness. Other men can't see it, (different sense of physical attraction) and think these ugly men are still "average" looking. Women have determined otherwise (not women's fault, natural biology, different set of attractiveness).

If a man is above the passable line and struggling with women, he should indeed work on improving himself. If he's playing games all day long, or not showering, etc, but still has the looks, he most certainly can improve. Other men below this threshold will have no such luck, regardless of what they do.

Evidence to the contrary?


Actual women even in this thread have expressed that women have different views on what is attractive, what is ugly to one women may not be to others. Also, if one is so disfigured that is what is coming down to stopping them getting a girlfriend, then maybe they should look into some cosmetic surgery(like another poster mentioned doing) and maybe there should be programs to help people afford that who really need it.

But I think the vast majority of men are not so ugly no woman would want to date them. Though some guys who blame their 'ugliness' really just radiate such a bad negative attitude that is more likely what is really keeping the women away.



Fnord
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17 Sep 2021, 12:39 pm

This is what it all boils down to:

Sweetleaf wrote:
... some guys who blame their 'ugliness' really just radiate such a bad negative attitude that is more likely what is really keeping the women away.



Mona Pereth
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17 Sep 2021, 2:36 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
Women have a very low threshold of what an ugly man is---it's Evolutionary Biology 101, at least by Red Pill standards. Rodger fell far below that threshold, hence women rejected him. If he were above that threshold, he'd have a girlfriend or at least a series of dates. But he couldn't attract a woman to save his life.

Q.E.D.: Elliot Rodger was ugly.

Do you believe that all women have precisely the same standard as to what we consider attractive and what we consider ugly?

Hint: We don't.


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17 Sep 2021, 2:40 pm

Why listen to what women have to say, or what people who have dated women have to say when you can rely on what other immature man-children with the same problem say on the internet?

The ones who have the insight to improve on the issues holding them back outgrow those toxic communities so it's no wonder they slowly concentrate the level of toxicity. The best participants eventually evaporate out of the pool while the toxic sludge remains to influence future participants once they discover those communities. It's actually even worse than a crab bucket because at least a crab bucket traps everyone instead of only leaving behind the worst.


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Fnord
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17 Sep 2021, 2:48 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Aspie1 wrote:
Women have a very low threshold of what an ugly man is---it's Evolutionary Biology 101, at least by Red Pill standards. Rodger fell far below that threshold, hence women rejected him. If he were above that threshold, he'd have a girlfriend or at least a series of dates. But he couldn't attract a woman to save his life.  Q.E.D.: Elliot Rodger was ugly.
Do you believe that all women have precisely the same standard as to what we consider attractive and what we consider ugly?  Hint: We don't.
Heck, what any one woman may consider ugly/pretty one day may not be the same the next day.

'Course, I am just guessing, as no man can be an expert on what women really want.



uncommondenominator
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17 Sep 2021, 3:22 pm

Incels: *openly and constantly complains about how terrible women are, at great length and in great detail*

Women: *leaves*

Incels:

Image

"But I'm such a NICE GUY! You didn't spend ANY time getting to KNOW me!"

Also, I take issue with the term "involuntary celibacy".

It's not involuntary, cos you screwed yourself.

And it's not celibacy, cos you screwed yourself.



Last edited by uncommondenominator on 17 Sep 2021, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mona Pereth
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17 Sep 2021, 3:23 pm

Aspie1 wrote:
A "simp" is someone who blindly buys into the mainstream/Blue Pill/Democrat/Hollywood lies, rather than thinking critically and seeing past the wool being put over his eyes. That is, a man who thinks that you must act like husband material to attract a woman. When in reality, a "husband material" man is anything but attractive; it's all about looks and a dominant demeanor.

In reality, both of the above are vast over-generalizations.

Why assume that "it's all about" any particular thing for all women?


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17 Sep 2021, 3:35 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
Incels: *openly and constantly complains about how terrible women are, at great length and in great detail*

Women: *leaves*

Incels: "But I'm such a NICE GUY! You didn't spend ANY time getting to KNOW me!"
I see you have been paying attention to the posters in L&D over the past few years.
uncommondenominator wrote:
Also, I take issue with the term "involuntary celibacy". It's not involuntary, cos you screwed yourself. And it's not celibacy, cos you screwed yourself.
Mmm ... not always.

Some guys may have been born with actual disabilities or real disfigurements (or both) that repulse women.  Celibacy for these guys really is involuntary.  It is the jerks and a-holes (like the one you described above) whose attitudes and behavior ruin their chances for romances.



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17 Sep 2021, 6:22 pm

Why waste thought on incels? Can anyone answer that?



cyberdad
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17 Sep 2021, 6:52 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
But I think the vast majority of men are not so ugly no woman would want to date them. Though some guys who blame their 'ugliness' really just radiate such a bad negative attitude that is more likely what is really keeping the women away.


This is tricky. The odds are already stacked and when you are hit with perceived ugliness tag then the pool of potential girls interested in you dries up very very fast.

It's not that there aren't girls out there who would be willing to date an ugly man, it's just
a) there are relatively so few
b) if the girls don't have high standards then they would already been taken
c) the remaining girls willing to give an ugly man a chance are hard to find (there isn't a locater available to find these fantastic girls)
d) even if you were lucky to finally come across these "gems" there is absolutely no guarantee they will date you because I don't think any girl (unless they have a fetish) search for men with blemishes. It boils down to options, and you would still not be the first choice so it requires hard work to break the ice.

These are the stark realities and it doesn't help telling unattractive virgin men "there's a girl out there for you" without giving them the facts. The brutal reality is that you need to improve yourself (whether it be physical appearance, grooming, mindset and even employment) if you want to maximise your chances.

Otherwise giving men in this situation high expectations means the bext tine they fail they will be more reluctant to try again.



cyberdad
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17 Sep 2021, 6:56 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
[
I see the parallels with Autism. Rainman is an extreme case of Autism, but there are "higher-functioning" autists who still fall below the NT line. Autism affects them, but since they don't seem as extreme an example of Rain Man, people accuse them of not being autistic.


Not sure why you are dragging lower functioning men into the discussion? You would be surprised how little NT people know (or care) about autism. The older generation who watched Rainman are long gone from the dating scene, Most of the higher functioning men don't even advertise their diagnosis when they date.



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17 Sep 2021, 7:52 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
But I think the vast majority of men are not so ugly no woman would want to date them. Though some guys who blame their 'ugliness' really just radiate such a bad negative attitude that is more likely what is really keeping the women away.


This is tricky. The odds are already stacked and when you are hit with perceived ugliness tag then the pool of potential girls interested in you dries up very very fast.

It's not that there aren't girls out there who would be willing to date an ugly man, it's just
a) there are relatively so few
b) if the girls don't have high standards then they would already been taken
c) the remaining girls willing to give an ugly man a chance are hard to find (there isn't a locater available to find these fantastic girls)
d) even if you were lucky to finally come across these "gems" there is absolutely no guarantee they will date you because I don't think any girl (unless they have a fetish) search for men with blemishes. It boils down to options, and you would still not be the first choice so it requires hard work to break the ice.

These are the stark realities and it doesn't help telling unattractive virgin men "there's a girl out there for you" without giving them the facts. The brutal reality is that you need to improve yourself (whether it be physical appearance, grooming, mindset and even employment) if you want to maximise your chances.

Otherwise giving men in this situation high expectations means the bext tine they fail they will be more reluctant to try again.


On the subject of women not being attracted to virgins, and that is one of the reasons incel men would strike out, could incel men not say they are virgins and would that help, or no? I mean why would the women reject them for being virgins, if the men didn't tell them?



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17 Sep 2021, 9:49 pm

ironpony wrote:
On the subject of women not being attracted to virgins, and that is one of the reasons incel men would strike out, could incel men not say they are virgins and would that help, or no? I mean why would the women reject them for being virgins, if the men didn't tell them?


I often wonder whether women can detect a virgin? It's an interesting question. I suspect the more experience a woman has with men the more likely they pick up the signs.

But TBH if a man isn't going to attract their attention in the first place (e.g. appearance, grooming etc) then virginity is irrelevant.



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17 Sep 2021, 9:55 pm

That's true, it's just that even if a guy is trying to get his game up in all areas, they shouldn't tell women they are virgins, since they are more likely to strike out that way. I don't think women usually tell guys they are virgins either most often, but I could be wrong?



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17 Sep 2021, 10:01 pm

ironpony wrote:
That's true, it's just that even if a guy is trying to get his game up in all areas, they shouldn't tell women they are virgins, since they are more likely to strike out that way. I don't think women usually tell guys they are virgins either most often, but I could be wrong?


Virginity is horribly ridiculed and stigmatised in society
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_the_Virgin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_40-Year-Old_Virgin

But if a woman is attractive men don't care if she's not a virgin.



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17 Sep 2021, 10:04 pm

Oh okay. But my current gf who was a virgin before me didn't plan on telling me until after sex though, because she felt embarrassed about it. So is it normal for a woman to feel embarrassed about it too, even if most guys don't care?

But even if guys are stigmatised for being virgins, why would a guy even want to tell a woman that he is one anyway? If women do not like virgin guys then there is no reason to bring it up beforehand is there?