Something is wrong with me. Its the only explanation.

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kraftiekortie
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29 May 2021, 4:14 pm

I never found it easy to make love when I felt the need to make love.



Mona Pereth
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29 May 2021, 8:53 pm

dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Speaking only for myself: I have always felt that people become "interesting and exciting" by doing interesting and exciting things, and/or via companionship with me around a shared love of things/topics/activities I find interesting and exciting. I have never seen "interesting and exciting" as an intrinsic quality of a person.


I discussed that topic in this thread: https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=397342

... in which you overgeneralize about women.

dorkseid wrote:
I've known many women over the years who have found me interesting and exciting, but they all still were only interested in me as a friend.

Months ago, we discussed some of the likely reasons why, in the thread What I don't want. Besides autism, these reasons included:

1) Your "girly" voice. (And, if I recall correctly, you said elsewhere that you tried testosterone treatments and they didn't work.)
2) Being an atheist living in a rural Bible Belt town.

I pointed out that, to address these issues, you absolutely need to move to a major metropolitan area, preferably one with liberal values and a large LGBTQ+ community, in order to find any significant number of the kind of women (nonreligious bisexual women) who could conceivably be attracted to you.

Hopefully your forthcoming education degree will give you more flexibility about where you live.

The COVID crisis has caused drastically lowered property values in a lot of major metropolitan areas. Hopefully they won't rebound too quickly after the COVID crisis is over with.

As a heterosexual cis man with a girly voice, you need to start thinking yourself as part of the "Q+" in "LGBTQ+." You are in not quite the same boat, but a very similar boat, as those trans men and nonbinary people who are attracted to cis women. It might help you to do some research on how people in these two categories go about finding female partners.

dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
But it seems to me there might be a happy middle ground somewhere between "lowering your standards" to this extent and clinging to an impossible dream.


And how is something that has been achieved by every other person I know an impossible dream? Unless what you mean is that its an impossible dream only for me.

It's impossible to change the past.

It seems to me that you need to think about how you can maximize your chances in the future, rather than mourning endlessly for what you never had (an at least semi-decent relationship between two twenty-somethings) and can never have because time machines don't exist.

Above all, I think you need to think more about what kinds of women could conceivably be attracted to you (at least once you lose some weight), rather than thinking of women as a monolithic bloc, as if we were fundamentally all alike, and as if we all wanted the same things. I think the latter tendency of yours is a big part of your problem, leading you to (for example) dismiss any effort to make yourself more attractive, e.g. by doing more physical exercise, on the grounds that most women wouldn't be attracted to you anyway.


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idntonkw
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29 May 2021, 10:47 pm

Benjamin the Donkey wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:

It is my hope that a bigger and better-organized autistic community can eventually create some good, robust alternatives.


Even if that does happen, its already too late for it to help me.

idntonkw wrote:
Why should women lower their expectations and date an autist? Women want to be like everybody else and date an interesting and exciting NT guy, not a boring/cold/lonely autist man.


This.


No, not necessarily.

I'm diagnosed and clearly autistic --socially and physically awkward, easily overwhelmed by sensory overload, terrible executive functioning, prone to random monologuing--and I've dated many (attractive, intelligent) women. Some women even find our eccentricities charming.


You are probably talented and charming though.



idntonkw
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29 May 2021, 10:54 pm

dorkseid wrote:
I have been treating my symptoms. I have been taking medications for my depression and anxiety. I have been going to therapy. I have tried changing things: I switched job fields multiple times, I moved to Ohio and back, I got my TESOL, I worked from home teaching English, I am currently attending grad school. And while those have given me unique and interesting experiences, none of them did anything to help my love life. I don't know what else you want from me.

I have improved my ability to interact with people, from both treatment and experience. I have had many friendships over the years, and a lot of those with women who actually find me quite charming and funny and enjoy spending time with me. But all of them only like me as a friend and none of them have ever been interested in me sexually or romantically.

You say you've never been in a relationship. But are you a virgin? Do you ever have flings or one night stands?

I have only had sex once in my entire life. It was in 2010. I was 28 and desperate to lose my virginity. I caught chlamydia and gonorrhea and the sex wasn't even any good. I have nothing to compare it to, but I felt nothing at all. It was like her vaginal muscles didn't exist. She was an avid smoker and when we kissed it was like licking the inside of an ashtray. The whole experience was just gross. That was the only time in my entire life when a woman wanted to have sex with me, and she even openly admitted that she had low self-esteem and would f**k anyone who gave her any attention.


WOW! You did A LOT!! ! Compared to what you described, I didn't expect nearly as much life achievement..

On the subject of the feelings and thoughts about missing out and being old - while the thoughts are true and valid, it is partially the biology of not exercising or eating healthy that is prompting the thoughts and feelings. If you exercise and eat healthy - you will admit that these thoughts are true, but you won't care as you will just.. feel good. So to commit to exercise and healthy eating is THE goal. Arnold Sharznegger is on point with this type of motivation to diet and exercise and achieve some health and body goals. Then the thoughts and feelings change too, most likely (but not always).



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30 May 2021, 4:49 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

... in which you overgeneralize about women.


No, I did not. I never said that only women choose partners based on sexual attraction. I said everyone does. This is basic biology.

Mona Pereth wrote:
2) Being an atheist living in a rural Bible Belt town.


Incorrect. I live in a college town on the outskirts of my state's capital.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Hopefully your forthcoming education degree will give you more flexibility about where you live.


I've been working as a TA in a special needs classroom for the past year. I've been in a special education master's program for the past two years. The year before that I was as a substitute teacher, working primarily in special needs classrooms. I frequented the same schools enough for the staff to be familiar with me, but because I worked in multiple school I was meeting more people. Prior to that, I worked as a nurse aide (another female dominated field) in the Cleveland area (a metropolitan area surrounding a major city). And despite all of that, I still could never find a girlfriend.

Mona Pereth wrote:
The COVID crisis has caused drastically lowered property values in a lot of major metropolitan areas. Hopefully they won't rebound too quickly after the COVID crisis is over with.


Regardless, I'm still too broke and in too much debt to afford it.

Mona Pereth wrote:
As a heterosexual cis man with a girly voice, you need to start thinking yourself as part of the "Q+" in "LGBTQ+." You are in not quite the same boat, but a very similar boat, as those trans men and nonbinary people who are attracted to cis women. It might help you to do some research on how people in these two categories go about finding female partners.


I've known many liberal bisexual women over the years. They've rejected me as frequently as everyone else has.

Mona Pereth wrote:
It's impossible to change the past.


Which is why its impossible to do anything to improve my situation at this point.

Mona Pereth wrote:
It seems to me that you need to think about how you can maximize your chances in the future, rather than mourning endlessly for what you never had (an at least semi-decent relationship between two twenty-somethings) and can never have because time machines don't exist.


Being with someone I don't want won't make me feel any better. I've already tried settling for someone I'm not attracted to, and it was the biggest regret of my life.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Above all, I think you need to think more about what kinds of women could conceivably be attracted to you (at least once you lose some weight), rather than thinking of women as a monolithic bloc, as if we were fundamentally all alike, and as if we all wanted the same things. I think the latter tendency of yours is a big part of your problem, leading you to (for example) dismiss any effort to make yourself more attractive, e.g. by doing more physical exercise, on the grounds that most women wouldn't be attracted to you anyway.


On the few rare occasions when someone was interested in me, it was always the ones I didn't want. Do you think they still would have been interested in me if they were attractive? Or were they aware that men weren't interested in them, and in their desperation saw me as someone they might realistically have a shot with?

I do not believe that women are a monolith, which is why it is so puzzling that no woman has ever wanted to be with me. As I said in the OP: nothing persists this consistently for this many years by chance.

idntonkw wrote:
WOW! You did A LOT!! ! Compared to what you described, I didn't expect nearly as much life achievement..


And yet, I still could never get a girlfriend.



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30 May 2021, 7:11 am

dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:

... in which you overgeneralize about women.


No, I did not. I never said that only women choose partners based on sexual attraction. I said everyone does. This is basic biology.

So then you've over-generalized about men as well as women. You're ignoring demisexuals, for example.

dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
2) Being an atheist living in a rural Bible Belt town.


Incorrect. I live in a college town on the outskirts of my state's capital.

But you're still surrounded by religious people to a large degree, and there still isn't much of an LGBTQ+ community near you?

dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
As a heterosexual cis man with a girly voice, you need to start thinking yourself as part of the "Q+" in "LGBTQ+." You are in not quite the same boat, but a very similar boat, as those trans men and nonbinary people who are attracted to cis women. It might help you to do some research on how people in these two categories go about finding female partners.


I've known many liberal bisexual women over the years. They've rejected me as frequently as everyone else has.

Possibly for different reasons?

Have any of your in-person women friends ever given you any dating advice?


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30 May 2021, 12:50 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
So then you've over-generalized about men as well as women. You're ignoring demisexuals, for example.


Funny fact, my best friend is demisexual. We've been close friends for over 16 years. And she has never seen me as anything more than a friend.

Mona Pereth wrote:
But you're still surrounded by religious people to a large degree, and there still isn't much of an LGBTQ+ community near you?


You'd be surprised. I tend to travel in circles that attract outsiders. Atheists, autistics, and LGBTQ all fall into that classification. Its only natural that when living in a conservative hellhole we'd all gravitate to the kinds of social circles that accept us and act as a sort of safe haven.

I and other atheists tend to be drawn to each other and know who we all are pretty quickly. For a while I hung out at with a lesbian couple nearly every day. And I've shared homes with two different gay couples. At my current job I have a lesbian co-worker, a bisexual co-worker, and I know which of my coworkers are fellow atheists.

Mona Pereth wrote:

Have any of your in-person women friends ever given you any dating advice?


Not really. All I ever hear is "you'll meet the right one some day." I'm almost 40 and its too late for me to meet her now.



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30 May 2021, 1:21 pm

dorkseid wrote:
Not really. All I ever hear is "you'll meet the right one some day." I'm almost 40 and its too late for me to meet her now.


Similar boat. May as well just enjoy your time. Ride motorcycles, go kiteboarding, hangout with your friends at the beach - well, your equivalent to those goldfishy things, anyways. 8)


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30 May 2021, 2:25 pm

be aware that having even a proper mate is not always a walk in the park. there will always be conflict in even the best marriages, my sister's example is one where they were married for 36 years [his death] but there were arguments often enough and periods of pregnant silence. sometimes married people wish they were not married. sometimes one wants to drink the milk out of the carton and set the thermostat back to a nice cool 68 on a hot day. sometimes one wants to not shave for a day or several. or not bathe. or futz around in the shop instead of doing house and yard maintenance. kinda hard to slough off on those things when one wants to please a mate.



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30 May 2021, 7:06 pm

"I'm sorry that you're hungry. I know that you haven't eaten in months. But you should know that food isn't all its cracked up to be. I mean, you have to go to the grocery store and stand in a line for like 40 minutes to get to the register. And then you have to cook it. And that is a lot of hard work and it takes hours, and the whole time its really hot and bright and uncomfortable. And then most of the time it doesn't even come out right and tastes like garbage. Then you get tired of eating the same crap over and over every day. And sometimes your food even makes you sick. Trust me, you're not missing out on much."

That's what you sound like.



salad
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30 May 2021, 7:35 pm

dorkseid wrote:
"I'm sorry that you're hungry. I know that you haven't eaten in months. But you should know that food isn't all its cracked up to be. I mean, you have to go to the grocery store and stand in a line for like 40 minutes to get to the register. And then you have to cook it. And that is a lot of hard work and it takes hours, and the whole time its really hot and bright and uncomfortable. And then most of the time it doesn't even come out right and tastes like garbage. Then you get tired of eating the same crap over and over every day. And sometimes your food even makes you sick. Trust me, you're not missing out on much."

That's what you sound like.


Very bad analogy. Food is something a human being will literally, not metaphorically, but literally, die without. When calculating risk/reward ratios you never ever compare something whose finality is termination with something with finite costs. The opportunity cost of not eating food makes it so unviable that is isn't even a good trade off just because there is a negligible lack of responsibility. Now not having a spouse for those who want one sucks, but the opportunity cost of not having a spouse isn't termination and there is a trade off of substantially less responsibility and heart ache that at least makes it incomparable with not having food.


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30 May 2021, 8:25 pm

Garbage! Research has demonstrated that lonely people have significantly shorter life spans. So yes, being alone forever actually does kill people.



salad
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30 May 2021, 9:33 pm

dorkseid wrote:
Garbage! Research has demonstrated that lonely people have significantly shorter life spans. So yes, being alone forever actually does kill people.


Shorter lifespans =/= killing someone

Using even basic statistics an almost infinite number of variables can correlate with statistically significant lower lifespan compared to a control. However for something to be said to kill you it needs to be shown a causative mechanism that dramatically facilitates death. Not eating food does just that with the body lacking nutrients, energy depleting, body starting to consume itself, and eventually everything else we know about starvation killing oneself.

Not having a SO sucks but to say that kills someone the way not having food does is just patently false.


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30 May 2021, 10:03 pm

dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
So then you've over-generalized about men as well as women. You're ignoring demisexuals, for example.


Funny fact, my best friend is demisexual. We've been close friends for over 16 years. And she has never seen me as anything more than a friend.

If you know someone who is demisexual, then how can you claim that everyone evaluates people for sexual attractiveness when they first meet?

Of course, not evaluating people for sexual attractiveness when they first meet doesn't guarantee that they will find someone sexually attractive later.

dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
But you're still surrounded by religious people to a large degree, and there still isn't much of an LGBTQ+ community near you?


You'd be surprised. I tend to travel in circles that attract outsiders. Atheists, autistics, and LGBTQ all fall into that classification. Its only natural that when living in a conservative hellhole we'd all gravitate to the kinds of social circles that accept us and act as a sort of safe haven.

I and other atheists tend to be drawn to each other and know who we all are pretty quickly.

Perhaps you might be able to give some useful advice to Marknis, then, on how to go about finding his fellow atheists?

dorkseid wrote:
For a while I hung out at with a lesbian couple nearly every day. And I've shared homes with two different gay couples. At my current job I have a lesbian co-worker, a bisexual co-worker, and I know which of my coworkers are fellow atheists

That's good, but not the same thing as living in a place where there are lots and lots of bisexual women.

It should also be noted that male atheists outnumber female atheists by two to one, at least according to statistics quoted on this Wikipedia page. I would expect the gender ratio to be even more skewed in the Bible Belt than elsewhere. In the Bible Belt, I would expect unpaired nonreligious hetero or bisexual women to be exceedingly scarce, relative to unpaired nonreligious hetero men. I think you may be vastly underestimating the role of the place where you live as one of the main causes (though not the only cause) of your difficulties.

Another thing: Many people, both women and men, are reluctant to form relationships with co-workers, out of fear of (1) possible difficulties in the workplace in the event that the relationship doesn't work out and (2) being fired together in the event that one of the partners gets fired.

On the other hand, if you were to be involved in building an organization of people with similar career goals, but working for different employers ....


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dorkseid
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30 May 2021, 10:49 pm

salad wrote:
Shorter lifespans =/= killing someone

Using even basic statistics an almost infinite number of variables can correlate with statistically significant lower lifespan compared to a control. However for something to be said to kill you it needs to be shown a causative mechanism that dramatically facilitates death. Not eating food does just that with the body lacking nutrients, energy depleting, body starting to consume itself, and eventually everything else we know about starvation killing oneself.

Not having a SO sucks but to say that kills someone the way not having food does is just patently false.


So if something doesn't immediately and directly result in my death, then it is doing no harm to my physical and/or mental health at all? Got it.

Mona Pereth wrote:
If you know someone who is demisexual, then how can you claim that everyone evaluates people for sexual attractiveness when they first meet?


There will always be exceptions to any rule. Demisexuals are outliers, and are few and far between.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Of course, not evaluating people for sexual attractiveness when they first meet doesn't guarantee that they will find someone sexually attractive later.


And if I was just talking about one individual not finding me attractive that wouldn't mean anything. The point is that I have been rejected by every woman I've ever met in my entire adult life, including bisexuals and demisexuals.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Perhaps you might be able to give some useful advice to Marknis, then, on how to go about finding his fellow atheists?


I don't do anything particular. As I meet people and talk to them, they tend to at some point reveal that they're atheists. I think it might be because as we talk, we pick on hints from each other that we don't buy into the mainstream culture.

Mona Pereth wrote:
That's good, but not the same thing as living in a place where there are lots and lots of bisexual women.


And where would this fabled land be?

Really, at this point it wouldn't help. I've already explained why its too late for me now, even if I fixed all my problems.

Mona Pereth wrote:
It should also be noted that male atheists outnumber female atheists by two to one, at least according to statistics quoted on this Wikipedia page. I would expect the gender ratio to be even more skewed in the Bible Belt than elsewhere. In the Bible Belt, I would expect unpaired nonreligious hetero or bisexual women to be exceedingly scarce, relative to unpaired nonreligious hetero men. I think you may be vastly underestimating the role of the place where you live as one of the main causes (though not the only cause) of your difficulties.


And what do you expect me to about that? Do you think I'd still be here if I could afford to move away?

And besides, as I said, its already too late for any of that to matter anyway.

Mona Pereth wrote:
Another thing: Many people, both women and men, are reluctant to form relationships with co-workers, out of fear of (1) possible difficulties in the workplace in the event that the relationship doesn't work out and (2) being fired together in the event that one of the partners gets fired.


99% of everyone I've met in the past decade have been coworkers. Take that away, and I have nothing left.

Mona Pereth wrote:
On the other hand, if you were to be involved in building an organization of people with similar career goals, but working for different employers ....


You do know I'm autistic, right?



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30 May 2021, 11:10 pm

dorkseid wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
On the other hand, if you were to be involved in building an organization of people with similar career goals, but working for different employers ....


You do know I'm autistic, right?

Yes. But as I wrote here:

Mona Pereth wrote:
"What???" some readers may ask. How can a bunch of people who have trouble with ordinary social skills learn leadership skills?

Just as some of us may find academic skills easier to learn than social skills, many of us may also find some social skills easier to learn than others. And, within the social realm too, what's relatively easy or difficult for us may differ from what's relatively easy or difficult for most NT's. (Again see autistic-friendly social skills.) Some of us may even find it easier to lead a group than to participate in groups led by others. (Some of us may, for example, find it easier to focus our attention on a group when we are leading it than when we are not leading it.)

That's not the case for all of us, of course. But, even so, attempting to develop leadership skills can be a good way to help us improve our social skills more generally.


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