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QFT
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20 Jun 2021, 3:12 am

Lets put side by side these two quotes:

DW_a_mom wrote:
When someone picks on every word spoken...


DW_a_mom wrote:
In contrast, the best way to make someone else feel good about their conversation with you is to get them talking about themself


Now, what would happen if I get them to talk about themselves and pick on every word spoken as they do? Will this be an extra bonus point since it means I pay ESPECIALLY close attention to them? Or will it be bad because they won't follow this logical step?

I strongly suspect it would be the latter, and I find it illogical. I was often accused of "not caring" and "obsessing" at the same time, and I don't understand how the two things are even compatible: they look like direct opposites to me.



QFT
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20 Jun 2021, 3:14 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
It should be noted that a previous thread has pretty heavy bearing on my reading.


Which one are you referring to? And can you spell out the connection between that thread and what you talk about?



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20 Jun 2021, 3:29 am

QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
In contrast, the best way to make someone else feel good about their conversation with you is to get them talking about themself

Now, what would happen if I get them to talk about themselves and pick on every word spoken as they do?

Problem solved.



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20 Jun 2021, 5:38 am

QFT wrote:
Lets put side by side these two quotes:

DW_a_mom wrote:
When someone picks on every word spoken...


DW_a_mom wrote:
In contrast, the best way to make someone else feel good about their conversation with you is to get them talking about themself


Now, what would happen if I get them to talk about themselves and pick on every word spoken as they do? Will this be an extra bonus point since it means I pay ESPECIALLY close attention to them? Or will it be bad because they won't follow this logical step?

I strongly suspect it would be the latter, and I find it illogical. I was often accused of "not caring" and "obsessing" at the same time, and I don't understand how the two things are even compatible: they look like direct opposites to me.


The later.

When you start picking you can turn what should have been paying attention into something intrusive. It’s stalkerish. Speak to the intent of what was shared and not the precise word choices. If they talk about travels, you can ask general questions like “did you like Croatia or Italy better?” Not, “when you talked about the Asiago cheese on the pizza in Italy did you mean …?” She wants to feel heard, not dissected.


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cyberdad
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20 Jun 2021, 5:56 am

QFT wrote:
so its good that my dad passed away.

I hope you don't mean that?


QFT wrote:
When I asked my parents this question they come up with all kinds of excuses but they all sound like excuses. So I am wondering what are some of the REAL reasons why they try to leave Russia at all costs.


You asked me earlier why Russian girls are less picky than western girls. I need to qualify one thing, I suspect the girls in Pattaya, Bangkok and Manila are probably working for the Russian mafia who control them. But the ones in Tokyo, HK and Singapore are freelance.

The impetus to leave Russia is for new opportunities. I know one Russian girl here in Melbourne who recently got her PhD and in her mid 20s. She is such a nice girl and so grateful to be in Australia (she really doesn't miss Russia at all). She;s going to make some lucky guy really happy.

Even the Polish girls I knew in my catholic school who came as refugees from Poland in the 1980s (they were given some type of catholic scholarship), All of them were 100x nicer and friendlier than out local garden variety of girls here in Australia.



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20 Jun 2021, 6:45 am

cyberdad wrote:
I was in my late 20s/early 30s in Malaysia and mid-30s when I got married.


So it could've worked for me when I was that age. But now I'm too old and its too late.



QFT
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20 Jun 2021, 7:12 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
She wants to feel heard, not dissected.


I know this, but the question is: how is it possible to dissect what she said without hearing it? Here are the two criticisms she could say:

1) Yes you heard me, but you dissected me too, and the latter kinda ruined it
2) You didn't hear me but dissected me instead

Note that both "1" and "2" would imply that what I did was wrong. But the difference is that "1" is logically possible, while "2" isn't (if 2 were possible, then you would see deaf people dissecting things that were told to them, which obviously doesn't happen).

Now, I know you are going to say "you are picking apart the details right now". Alright, let me tell you this one thing: I am not picking it apart just for the sake of picking it apart. I am picking it apart because I feel emotionally hurt by it. And the thing is that illogical accusation is a lot more hurtful than logical one Thats why it might "sound like" I am fixated on logic, but actually it is driven by the emotional hurt.

Its true that hurt in response to hurt is how things work. If I hurt her then she hurts me back. But there are different kinds of hurt. Its one thing to feel hurt fairly and it is quite another thing to be hurt unfairly. So accusation "1" is hurtful too, but at least it is fair. Accusation "2" is not fair. And the fact that it feels so unfair (emotional aspect) is tied to the fact that it is illogical (logical aspect). This is the underlying reason for my fixation on logic.

And this is something that others aren't getting about me either. There were several people who assumed I was being logical for the sake of exercize in logic, without ever stopping to realize that it was the emotional pain that was driving me. I actually had the following conversation with one of my ex-s who broke up with me mainly for the reason of my dissecting things:

Me: If during all the numerous fights that we had, I were to tell you that the reason behind my dissecting is that I am emotionally hurt, would you have been more patient with me?

My ex: Yes that would have helped

Me: But why didn't you realize this on your own? I mean, why would I spend all those hours arguing over something that "presumably" doesn't affect me emotionally?

My ex: Here you are doing it again

Now, its not JUST that particular ex of mine. That is the assumption that MOST people seem to make. Most people assume I am all about logic and I have no emotions. But they don't bother to ever answer me why would I be arguing so much if presumably I have no emotions.

Assuming that I can argue without having emotions is similar logical fallacy as assuming that I can dissect what I was told without hearing it. And both fallacies are emotionally hurtful in very similar ways.



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20 Jun 2021, 8:07 am

Hollywood_Guy wrote:
Even though I have no problem with women my own age either.


Neither did I when I was your age.



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20 Jun 2021, 8:36 am

cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
so its good that my dad passed away.

I hope you don't mean that?


I meant only with respect to a very narrow aspect of stopping me when I try to go to Russia. But overall obviously it is BAD he passed away.

I am sorry that I phrased it in a way that made it misleading, I didn't notice it until you pointed it out.

cyberdad wrote:
You asked me earlier why Russian girls are less picky than western girls. I need to qualify one thing, I suspect the girls in Pattaya, Bangkok and Manila are probably working for the Russian mafia who control them. But the ones in Tokyo, HK and Singapore are freelance.


I didn't know the word "freelance" before. I googled it and it says "working for different companies at different times rather than being permanently employed by one company."

So then the "freelance" girls are also working for "some" criminal elements, it is just that those criminal elements keep changing. Am I correct?

In any case, dating a girl that is "working for" some third party would kind of ruin the whole point of it. Because then it won't be love, it would be her using whomever she dates for some illicit purpose. So why would you recommend that anyone does it?

cyberdad wrote:
The impetus to leave Russia is for new opportunities.


But you mentioned how they leave Russia for poorer Asian countries. So why would there be more opportunities in those poor countries?

Now, when I came from US to India then I also came for "more opportunities". But it is different. In my case, the issue was the fact that I couldn't get the postdoc position in the US due to all the competition, and I figured that if I apply to India where there are less competition then I would get that position. This, however, is different from what you seem to be describing. An example that is a lot more similar to what you are talking about is a girl named Julia who used to be a professor in Russia and she dropped the professorship in Russia in order to be a postdoc in India -- just so she could leave Russia. And I don't get why she did it. In my case I "lowered" the country (from US to India) in order to "raise" my status (from graduate student to postdoc). So thats a tradeoff, it makes sense. But in her case she "lowered" both the country AND her position. And that makes no sense. Well, except that she doesn't see it as "lowering the country", cause she thinks that Russia is low of lows, far worse than India. I don't see why she would think that.

By the way, the reason I wasn't interested in her is mainly her age: she was in her 40-s, while I was only 31 at the time.

cyberdad wrote:
I know one Russian girl here in Melbourne who recently got her PhD and in her mid 20s. She is such a nice girl and so grateful to be in Australia (she really doesn't miss Russia at all). She;s going to make some lucky guy really happy.


Did she get her Ph.D. in Russia or in Australia? In what field?

cyberdad wrote:
Even the Polish girls I knew in my catholic school who came as refugees from Poland in the 1980s


Refugees *from what*? What kind of danger were they facing back in Poland?

cyberdad wrote:
All of them were 100x nicer and friendlier than out local garden variety of girls here in Australia.


But why would that make them less picky? As nice as they can be, fact remains: they are still looking for just ONE man. So then the competition for an Australian girl looking for ONE man and the competition for Polish girl looking for ONE man should be the same, should it not?

Actually, since you mentioned Polish girls being "nicer", I just came up with a theory of how this can mathematically happen. Please let me know if that theory is what you were thinking of or whether you were thinking of a different theory. So here is my theory:

When I encounter girls that are not nice, I know for a fact they won't date me. When I encounter girls that "are" nice, then I have some lingering hope that maybe they will (although still not likely). So an Australian girl that is "rude" can't afford to be "rude" to everyone: after all she needs a partner. Rather, she is rude to 75% of men, and is nice to the remaining 25%. She then chooses partner out of those 25%. On the other hand, a Polish girl who is nice to everyone, she gets to know everyone around, and chooses out of all of them. So, to make an analogy with seeking a job, an Australian girl has "two stage interview": the first stage lasts half a minute (thats when the first impression is made) and the second stage lasts however many days or weeks it would last. On the other hand a Polish girl has a single stage interview -- and that single stage that Polish girl has roughly corresponds to State 2 that Australian girl has.

Now, lets take two extreme examples. Lets say that John knows for a fact that he can always pass Stage 1 with Australian girl (lets say he is a smooth talker) while Steve knows for a fact that he can't (lets say he has Asperger). In this case, we would observe the following:

a) John would have better luck with Australian girl than with Polish girl. After all, if John were to pursue Australian girl he would be competting only with 25% of men who passed Stage 1 with her, whereas if John were to pursue Polish girl he would be competting with 100% of men. Obviously he would have better luck competting with 25% of men than he would competting with 100% of men

b) Steve would have better luck with Polish girl. After all, Steve wouldn't be considered by Australian girl to begin with.

Now, if you follow this so far, then I can then say the following:

c) What I said in "a" balances out what I said in "b", and this is what mathematically allows to both girls ending up with the same competition (only 1 man ultimately gets a position in either case)

d) Since you know that people on WP are more like Steve rather than John, thats why you can honestly say that people in WP would have better luck with Polish girls

Now, is this the theory you were thinking of?

The other theory of course is something I mentioned earlier that you agreed with: namely that a lot of Western girls are happy single. So in this case I wouldn't have to say that "a balances out b" since there would be another factor, namely

e) Australian girls aren't as eager to fill the opening as the Polish girls are

So what are your thoughts? Do you believe any of the theories I presented? Or, if not, what is your theory? I mean I was just trying to see how the mathematical contradiction can be avoided in light of both Polish girl and Australian girl looking for just 1 partner. Maybe you can think of other ways of avoiding contradiction besides the ones I thought of? If so, please let me know what they are.



Last edited by QFT on 20 Jun 2021, 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

QFT
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20 Jun 2021, 8:52 am

dorkseid wrote:
Hollywood_Guy wrote:
Even though I have no problem with women my own age either.


Neither did I when I was your age.


That changes things quite a bit. So are you saying that its not really your Asperger but rather your age? And you didn't have problems attracting women when you were younger, you just didn't really care, and now that you became older you regret the missed opportunities?

I sort of feel the same way. Except that in my case I wouldn't say I was ever liked by a lot of women. Rather there were a select few such occasions that I overlooked. But seeing that right now I am not liked by anyone at all, I would give a lot just to have one of those select few occasions again -- even though it would still be very little as far as NT is concerned.

For example, one time, when I was 19, I dropped books in a library. And a bunch of Western girls ran up to me to pick them up and give them to me. An NT would say this is nothing (and I did too back then). But right now when all girls ignore me, I am thinking "I wish a group of girls were to help me pick up the books now". Or there was that Western girl who was a cashier at a grocery store when I was 22 who kept trying to talk to me and I kept ignoring her. Again, just 1 girl trying to talk to me out of all the rest that all ignore me is nothing, or so I thought. But it is a lot better than right now, when nobody talks to me. I just regret that I ignored her back then. I really wish someone like her were to cross my path now, which never happens.

Now, were your opportunities back when you were in your 20-s as sporadic as mine, or were you having a much better luck with girls?



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20 Jun 2021, 11:54 am

Given the context, I took what Hollywood_guy said to me he does not object to dating women who are the same age as him. What I'm saying is that when I was around 29 I was attracted to women that were also around 29. I still got consistently rejected.



QFT
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20 Jun 2021, 11:54 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
I was worried it would come across that way, but the real point, in my eyes, is that this is something he has control over and can choose to change. He can learn to be more skillful in approach and conversation. It seems to me that it would be unfair to NOT point it out when it is a likely turn off trait that he can change.


I am glad you realize that I have skills to change it. So how would you explain why don't girls realize it? Because it was often the case when I was telling the girls that I would change and they would just ignore it.



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20 Jun 2021, 11:57 am

dorkseid wrote:
Given the context, I took what Hollywood_guy said to me he does not object to dating women who are the same age as him. What I'm saying is that when I was around 29 I was attracted to women that were also around 29. I still got consistently rejected.


He said he didn't get consistently rejected. So "neither did I", sounds like you said you weren't consistently rejected either, which implies you had some options.



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20 Jun 2021, 2:20 pm

QFT, I am going to have to try to get back to you on that one, because I do want to recognize your hurt and see if I can explain the concepts in a way that will work with your logic. It is going to take some time I don’t have right now; not sure when I will. Perhaps one concept to think about for both of us might be “heard” versus “understood.” I am thinking that in many ways you may be having conversations where you hear each other, but you don’t actually understand each other. That is much more difficult to resolve.


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20 Jun 2021, 4:36 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Perhaps one concept to think about for both of us might be “heard” versus “understood.” I am thinking that in many ways you may be having conversations where you hear each other, but you don’t actually understand each other. That is much more difficult to resolve.


Yes my daughter is going through this phase now. I am trying to her her to listen and comprehend to work out context....work in progress



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20 Jun 2021, 4:45 pm

QFT wrote:
e) Australian girls aren't as eager to fill the opening as the Polish girls are

So what are your thoughts? Do you believe any of the theories I presented? Or, if not, what is your theory? I mean I was just trying to see how the mathematical contradiction can be avoided in light of both Polish girl and Australian girl looking for just 1 partner. Maybe you can think of other ways of avoiding contradiction besides the ones I thought of? If so, please let me know what they are.


The Russian girl I knew (I think she's a PhD in biomed). She's focused on her studies so had no time for men. That doesn't mean she hasn't dated (I'll be honest I don't know her personal life other than she is single). The thought crossed my mind she could be lesbian as well.

Yes your theory makes some sense. The Polish girl, because she is foreign will have to be nice to everyone. However the algorithm also has to take into account looks. If the Polish girl looks like Maria Sharapova then I think she trumps the interview stage and goes straight into a seperate category where she will be in high demand.