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JimJohn
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Joined: 20 Dec 2021
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12 Jan 2022, 10:37 am

ironpony wrote:
KMCIURA wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well even if prostitution is illegal what is stopping incel men still? I mean lots of guys still go for it, even though it's illegal, so what is stopping them even so?


Log story short:

Incels believe that women are not equal to men. In fact, many view them as sub-humans, climbing heights of misogyny which make pre-emancipation movements gender stereotypes looking like a reasonable position.

A woman taking money for the service of having sex with a man is in position of power - she gets to decide who her clients are (in case of independent sex workers, at least - not those who function under umbrella of organised crime) and she gets the financial benefit out of it. A man is a client. Woman having any power over man is not in line with their world view.

Furthermore, vast majority of incels believe that they are entitled to having sex and that women owe them sex and have a duty of satisfying their needs. They want sex to be freely available ("freeuse fetish" most likely came from incels) without any effort, even financial, on their end.

A lot of alt-right men (group which overlaps with incel bubble) also dream of "tradwife". They want a woman who stayed virgin until marriage with them, who fits the traditional role of housekeeping wife and is submissive to her partner. Funnily enough, at the same time they want these women to be open minded when it comes to sex, having a massive sex drive all the time and being real devils in bed ahaha. I guess they do not realise that they want two different women :lol: Anyway - those who are into this tradwife stuff perceive women who had sex with other men, especially with multiple partners, as "dirty" and "used" (in "second-hand" meaning). This is why this particular group do not want to use services of a sex worker.

On a sidenote - prostitution is not illegal in most places on earth. In most of them, however, it is illegal to reap fruits of other people's sex work - i.e. being a pimp or running a brothel. As for a person to provide sex services, it is a grey area - it is not legalised, recognised and regulated as a profession, because of conservative morality which still dominate discourse in most of the countries, but also not a crime. This can result in pretty hilarious outcomes: any income from providing sex services is not taxed, for example. Over here, in Poland, there were cases of people who were stating in their tax forms that what they've earned came from prostitution to avoid paying taxes. I think this loophole has been closed somehow, but I remember that 15 years ago there were cases of businessmen who were making big money and declaring that all of it came from, basically, selling their ass xD


Oh okay I see. Well then why is there all this talk that incel men would be more satisfied if prostitution were legal, if legal doesn't have anything to do with it and it's about power...

Also, I find it surprising that men find prostitutes to have power, but I guess I am wrong and they often think that they are empowered and are turned on by that, or at least the ones who visit them?


I have thought to myself that people are crazy to think I would be abusing someone by giving them $300. One thing that I see that is the opposite of power in the situation is that no one has to beg for it. I guess that is the ultimate power imbalance if someone is begging. I like to pay and not beg or do things that are dishonest or distastful to me. I also like the fact that I win the sexual lottery by doing it.



KMCIURA
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Joined: 6 Jan 2022
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12 Jan 2022, 6:22 pm

ironpony wrote:
KMCIURA wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well even if prostitution is illegal what is stopping incel men still? I mean lots of guys still go for it, even though it's illegal, so what is stopping them even so?


Log story short:

Incels believe that women are not equal to men. In fact, many view them as sub-humans, climbing heights of misogyny which make pre-emancipation movements gender stereotypes looking like a reasonable position.

A woman taking money for the service of having sex with a man is in position of power - she gets to decide who her clients are (in case of independent sex workers, at least - not those who function under umbrella of organised crime) and she gets the financial benefit out of it. A man is a client. Woman having any power over man is not in line with their world view.

Furthermore, vast majority of incels believe that they are entitled to having sex and that women owe them sex and have a duty of satisfying their needs. They want sex to be freely available ("freeuse fetish" most likely came from incels) without any effort, even financial, on their end.

A lot of alt-right men (group which overlaps with incel bubble) also dream of "tradwife". They want a woman who stayed virgin until marriage with them, who fits the traditional role of housekeeping wife and is submissive to her partner. Funnily enough, at the same time they want these women to be open minded when it comes to sex, having a massive sex drive all the time and being real devils in bed ahaha. I guess they do not realise that they want two different women :lol: Anyway - those who are into this tradwife stuff perceive women who had sex with other men, especially with multiple partners, as "dirty" and "used" (in "second-hand" meaning). This is why this particular group do not want to use services of a sex worker.

On a sidenote - prostitution is not illegal in most places on earth. In most of them, however, it is illegal to reap fruits of other people's sex work - i.e. being a pimp or running a brothel. As for a person to provide sex services, it is a grey area - it is not legalised, recognised and regulated as a profession, because of conservative morality which still dominate discourse in most of the countries, but also not a crime. This can result in pretty hilarious outcomes: any income from providing sex services is not taxed, for example. Over here, in Poland, there were cases of people who were stating in their tax forms that what they've earned came from prostitution to avoid paying taxes. I think this loophole has been closed somehow, but I remember that 15 years ago there were cases of businessmen who were making big money and declaring that all of it came from, basically, selling their ass xD


Oh okay I see. Well then why is there all this talk that incel men would be more satisfied if prostitution were legal, if legal doesn't have anything to do with it and it's about power...

Also, I find it surprising that men find prostitutes to have power, but I guess I am wrong and they often think that they are empowered and are turned on by that, or at least the ones who visit them?


To clarify: incels are most of the time holding a belief that THEY should be in charge of when, where and how a woman is having sex with them.

A prostitute, in modern sex-working sense*, is in charge of whom she/he/they provide service to, at what price and to what she/he/they will agree to. This is position of power from incel perspective, because a man cannot just show up on prostitute's door with money and demand to have sex here and now. He cannot force that person to do things they do not want to just because he does have money. He can be refused service. And by giving her the money, he is still not in position of power - for example, if they'll set the rules that they won't do anal, but he will stick it up her ass anyway, you can bet that she won't just get over it thinking "he paid, he has the right to".

In prostitution run by an organized crime, things are different. Men are usually running these and sex-workers have little to no power over all things I've described above. If a prostitute refuses to do something or service a client, a man will complain to pimp and she will be threatened or even beaten up by a mob to give her a lesson to not act in a way that's bad for business.

*as: they are doing this because they like it, not because they are forced to do it or have to because of lack of other options.

I have been helping my distant friend journalist doing an article about incelsphere years ago and got pretty deep into it (at least I think) by faking to be one of them. I have never been more disgusted with anything my whole life. You wouldn't believe how rotten these people are. At the same time, they are extremely dumb, seeing how easy it was to infiltrate their discussion boards.

They have ideas like public brothels where all unmarried women in age of between 25 to 40 should report for service at least once a month and anyone who wants should be able to f*ck them for free. Both to scare women into marrying when they are still young (and thus, also marrying incels out of desperation) and to provide sex opportunities to men who are not married.

The most disturbing thing I've read was one guy explaining what is ultimate male dominance over a woman: to kill her and have a sex with her corpse. There were some people who were agreeing with him and started to discuss what kind of lube one should use, as corpse quickly becomes dry. Seriously, I wanted to puke. And I worked in slaughterhouse in the past, so I've seen my share of disgusting things. In fact, I felt the urge to find the guy and give him the same treatment we gave cattle in there. It's not a human being anymore, it's a dangerous trash.



ironpony
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12 Jan 2022, 8:26 pm

Oh okay I see. Is that the reason why these incel men cannot get women, is because of their misogynstic attitudes, or is it because they couldn't get any in the first place, that caused these attitudes to develop in them?



cyberdad
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12 Jan 2022, 11:03 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Is that the reason why these incel men cannot get women, is because of their misogynstic attitudes, or is it because they couldn't get any in the first place, that caused these attitudes to develop in them?


Could be one or the other or both. There is some mutual relationship in that women detect misogynistic attitudes (a joke or comment) steer clear of the dude. But from what I've seen of prominent incels who kill, they actually seem like decent looking dudes and some of them actually have friends. If I recall the two canadian teen incels who murdered people on the highway before taking their own lives were actually quite popular in their school. Perhaps because of their obsession with video games and guns they might have scared the local girls.



KMCIURA
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13 Jan 2022, 4:58 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Is that the reason why these incel men cannot get women, is because of their misogynstic attitudes, or is it because they couldn't get any in the first place, that caused these attitudes to develop in them?


It is like asking what was the first: hen or egg? (although obviously, evolution tells us it was an egg ;))

Incelsphere gathers a variety of people, who end up buying into this toxic ideology for different reasons. Of course, like every ideology, there's a more radical wing and more moderate one, but in case of incelism even moderate means off-putting and rotten.

There are guys who struggle mentally, but do not seek professional help - their struggles make it hard for them to have relationships with women, so they turn in direction of ideology which gives simple answers for their failures at finding love.

Then there are people who got in touch with this subculture at young age, when their minds were prone to adopt it without any critical thinking and became hypermisoginistic even though in other circumstances they would be able to find connection with women.

There are ones who are obsessed about sex - they aren't even unattractive or stupid (as in IQ level meaning) and could have a partner if they would stop being trash human beings, but they do not want that: they think that "chads" (a moniker they use to describe stereotypically attractive men with extravert personalities) have sex with different women all the time, with minimal effort and they want to be in the same position.

Some incels are victims of this whole coaching/pickup artists crap which was popular about 5 years ago - people were selling snake oil of lies, that if one learns manipulative practices, they will be able to get any woman. But it isn't the reality and those who bought into this idea and have not been successful in hooking up with women quite often see themselves as a failure and seek explanation what is the root cause - then, they discover this whole redpill/blackpill bs and become incels.

Some guys want to have a relationship with a specific type of woman: a supermodel (or at least one with hypersexualised looks). Incels use a "scale" of 1 to 10 to describe people's looks and quite often place themselves low on this scale, while placing girls they want to be with as 9 or 10. They believe that it is nigh impossible for a guy like them to achieve such relationship and forge their frustration into hate towards women in general.

Then, there are people who struggle with disabilities and gave up hope on finding a partner - most of the time, in the beginning, they aren't as radical and do not focus on hate towards women, but are severely depressed. They gravitate towards incelsphere because they seek people in a similar position (not being able to find a partner/have sex) and get a pat on the back over there. Over time, they soak up with this ideology.

Of course, you'll also encounter guys with conservative upbringing, who were raised with a view that women have a certain place in society. They weren't as "hardcore" in their misogyny in the beginning, but seeing that society has moved forward and most women do not want to fit in this outdated role model, they get frustrated because they cannot find a one fitting their expectations. Once again, incelsphere is the place they tend to end up, as their views become more radical over time.

It is a bit like with nazi party in pre-WW2 Germany. Initially, NSDAP has targeted working class people, posing as "patriotic" alternative to socialism and communism - hence the word "socialist" in "National Socialist German Workers' Party" even though the ideology itself have little to do with actual socialism. They offered simple answers and solution to complex problems and got a following from people who were most affected by Germany losing WWI and by economic crisis it suffered after end of the war. But over time, the nazi ideology has started to attract people who objectively, were in a much better position: financial elite, industrialists, artists and so on. They all bought into it for various reasons, from pragmatism to strong beliefs in nazi propaganda.

But is doesn't matter in the end, though. Every nazi was/is a disgusting person with dangerous beliefs, no matter how they ended up being a nazi. It is true in incels case too - they have different backgrounds, but in the end, it does not change anything.



HighLlama
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13 Jan 2022, 6:25 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Is that the reason why these incel men cannot get women, is because of their misogynstic attitudes, or is it because they couldn't get any in the first place, that caused these attitudes to develop in them?


I imagine they had pretty limited views of women to begin with, and they rationalized their rejection into hate/ideology.



JimJohn
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13 Jan 2022, 12:38 pm

KMCIURA wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Is that the reason why these incel men cannot get women, is because of their misogynstic attitudes, or is it because they couldn't get any in the first place, that caused these attitudes to develop in them?


It is like asking what was the first: hen or egg? (although obviously, evolution tells us it was an egg ;))

Incelsphere gathers a variety of people, who end up buying into this toxic ideology for different reasons. Of course, like every ideology, there's a more radical wing and more moderate one, but in case of incelism even moderate means off-putting and rotten.

There are guys who struggle mentally, but do not seek professional help - their struggles make it hard for them to have relationships with women, so they turn in direction of ideology which gives simple answers for their failures at finding love.

Then there are people who got in touch with this subculture at young age, when their minds were prone to adopt it without any critical thinking and became hypermisoginistic even though in other circumstances they would be able to find connection with women.

There are ones who are obsessed about sex - they aren't even unattractive or stupid (as in IQ level meaning) and could have a partner if they would stop being trash human beings, but they do not want that: they think that "chads" (a moniker they use to describe stereotypically attractive men with extravert personalities) have sex with different women all the time, with minimal effort and they want to be in the same position.

Some incels are victims of this whole coaching/pickup artists crap which was popular about 5 years ago - people were selling snake oil of lies, that if one learns manipulative practices, they will be able to get any woman. But it isn't the reality and those who bought into this idea and have not been successful in hooking up with women quite often see themselves as a failure and seek explanation what is the root cause - then, they discover this whole redpill/blackpill bs and become incels.

Some guys want to have a relationship with a specific type of woman: a supermodel (or at least one with hypersexualised looks). Incels use a "scale" of 1 to 10 to describe people's looks and quite often place themselves low on this scale, while placing girls they want to be with as 9 or 10. They believe that it is nigh impossible for a guy like them to achieve such relationship and forge their frustration into hate towards women in general.

Then, there are people who struggle with disabilities and gave up hope on finding a partner - most of the time, in the beginning, they aren't as radical and do not focus on hate towards women, but are severely depressed. They gravitate towards incelsphere because they seek people in a similar position (not being able to find a partner/have sex) and get a pat on the back over there. Over time, they soak up with this ideology.

Of course, you'll also encounter guys with conservative upbringing, who were raised with a view that women have a certain place in society. They weren't as "hardcore" in their misogyny in the beginning, but seeing that society has moved forward and most women do not want to fit in this outdated role model, they get frustrated because they cannot find a one fitting their expectations. Once again, incelsphere is the place they tend to end up, as their views become more radical over time.

It is a bit like with nazi party in pre-WW2 Germany. Initially, NSDAP has targeted working class people, posing as "patriotic" alternative to socialism and communism - hence the word "socialist" in "National Socialist German Workers' Party" even though the ideology itself have little to do with actual socialism. They offered simple answers and solution to complex problems and got a following from people who were most affected by Germany losing WWI and by economic crisis it suffered after end of the war. But over time, the nazi ideology has started to attract people who objectively, were in a much better position: financial elite, industrialists, artists and so on. They all bought into it for various reasons, from pragmatism to strong beliefs in nazi propaganda.

But is doesn't matter in the end, though. Every nazi was/is a disgusting person with dangerous beliefs, no matter how they ended up being a nazi. It is true in incels case too - they have different backgrounds, but in the end, it does not change anything.


I don't know who said it originally but intelligence is being able to entertain an idea without adopting it. I like your post because it looks like you are considering a lot of information and trying to make sense out of it. I don't come to every conclusion that you do but that is ok. Your conclusions are rather good.

This is just my perception. I think the PUA community started with the guy name Mystery writing a book. Apparently, they had some forums that people posted on that followed that in time. It created a genre of books. The red pill came along from that. In the end it attracted a lot of people who never even read the books. I don't remember the Red Pill ever embracing the Incels. Their views were contrary. They definitely embraced MGTOW. They had a running joke about people having aspergers as the reason they wanted a script to use and why they had no social intelligence.

I think there is a broader political narrative in the world to divide people into groups. I don't tend to do it but I am not of the current generation.

You can actually use some of the PUA material for small talk. If you were to ask a girl in bar to pick out who in the room they would f***, kill or marry. They would think it is funny. You could even tell them where you got the game. It can beat not having anything to say. If they don't like it, who cares. If it is appropiate in the instance, you can be the judge of that. People learn games just like they learn jokes. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

PUA teaches that you are the prize. That is not a bad thing to learn or internalize. It might be contrary to what society teaches. But, sometimes the man is the prize. If you think you are the prize, you are. Why would you think it if you weren't?

I never believed that any woman could be picked up. That was obviously a sales gimmick. It is the thing called hyperbole in English. You can lump all the stuff under the umbrella of influence if someone wanted. If someone was studying influence, marketing or business in general they would read from a variety of sources. They would learn about people in general. They would not be scared of the sources. Words are just words.



CockneyRebel
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13 Jan 2022, 7:32 pm

I had my first experience at the age of 32 and I'm built like Sgt. Schultz, so how fit you are has nothing to do with shagging.


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ironpony
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13 Jan 2022, 10:08 pm

JimJohn wrote:
KMCIURA wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Is that the reason why these incel men cannot get women, is because of their misogynstic attitudes, or is it because they couldn't get any in the first place, that caused these attitudes to develop in them?


It is like asking what was the first: hen or egg? (although obviously, evolution tells us it was an egg ;))

Incelsphere gathers a variety of people, who end up buying into this toxic ideology for different reasons. Of course, like every ideology, there's a more radical wing and more moderate one, but in case of incelism even moderate means off-putting and rotten.

There are guys who struggle mentally, but do not seek professional help - their struggles make it hard for them to have relationships with women, so they turn in direction of ideology which gives simple answers for their failures at finding love.

Then there are people who got in touch with this subculture at young age, when their minds were prone to adopt it without any critical thinking and became hypermisoginistic even though in other circumstances they would be able to find connection with women.

There are ones who are obsessed about sex - they aren't even unattractive or stupid (as in IQ level meaning) and could have a partner if they would stop being trash human beings, but they do not want that: they think that "chads" (a moniker they use to describe stereotypically attractive men with extravert personalities) have sex with different women all the time, with minimal effort and they want to be in the same position.

Some incels are victims of this whole coaching/pickup artists crap which was popular about 5 years ago - people were selling snake oil of lies, that if one learns manipulative practices, they will be able to get any woman. But it isn't the reality and those who bought into this idea and have not been successful in hooking up with women quite often see themselves as a failure and seek explanation what is the root cause - then, they discover this whole redpill/blackpill bs and become incels.

Some guys want to have a relationship with a specific type of woman: a supermodel (or at least one with hypersexualised looks). Incels use a "scale" of 1 to 10 to describe people's looks and quite often place themselves low on this scale, while placing girls they want to be with as 9 or 10. They believe that it is nigh impossible for a guy like them to achieve such relationship and forge their frustration into hate towards women in general.

Then, there are people who struggle with disabilities and gave up hope on finding a partner - most of the time, in the beginning, they aren't as radical and do not focus on hate towards women, but are severely depressed. They gravitate towards incelsphere because they seek people in a similar position (not being able to find a partner/have sex) and get a pat on the back over there. Over time, they soak up with this ideology.

Of course, you'll also encounter guys with conservative upbringing, who were raised with a view that women have a certain place in society. They weren't as "hardcore" in their misogyny in the beginning, but seeing that society has moved forward and most women do not want to fit in this outdated role model, they get frustrated because they cannot find a one fitting their expectations. Once again, incelsphere is the place they tend to end up, as their views become more radical over time.

It is a bit like with nazi party in pre-WW2 Germany. Initially, NSDAP has targeted working class people, posing as "patriotic" alternative to socialism and communism - hence the word "socialist" in "National Socialist German Workers' Party" even though the ideology itself have little to do with actual socialism. They offered simple answers and solution to complex problems and got a following from people who were most affected by Germany losing WWI and by economic crisis it suffered after end of the war. But over time, the nazi ideology has started to attract people who objectively, were in a much better position: financial elite, industrialists, artists and so on. They all bought into it for various reasons, from pragmatism to strong beliefs in nazi propaganda.

But is doesn't matter in the end, though. Every nazi was/is a disgusting person with dangerous beliefs, no matter how they ended up being a nazi. It is true in incels case too - they have different backgrounds, but in the end, it does not change anything.


I don't know who said it originally but intelligence is being able to entertain an idea without adopting it. I like your post because it looks like you are considering a lot of information and trying to make sense out of it. I don't come to every conclusion that you do but that is ok. Your conclusions are rather good.

This is just my perception. I think the PUA community started with the guy name Mystery writing a book. Apparently, they had some forums that people posted on that followed that in time. It created a genre of books. The red pill came along from that. In the end it attracted a lot of people who never even read the books. I don't remember the Red Pill ever embracing the Incels. Their views were contrary. They definitely embraced MGTOW. They had a running joke about people having aspergers as the reason they wanted a script to use and why they had no social intelligence.

I think there is a broader political narrative in the world to divide people into groups. I don't tend to do it but I am not of the current generation.

You can actually use some of the PUA material for small talk. If you were to ask a girl in bar to pick out who in the room they would f***, kill or marry. They would think it is funny. You could even tell them where you got the game. It can beat not having anything to say. If they don't like it, who cares. If it is appropiate in the instance, you can be the judge of that. People learn games just like they learn jokes. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

PUA teaches that you are the prize. That is not a bad thing to learn or internalize. It might be contrary to what society teaches. But, sometimes the man is the prize. If you think you are the prize, you are. Why would you think it if you weren't?

I never believed that any woman could be picked up. That was obviously a sales gimmick. It is the thing called hyperbole in English. You can lump all the stuff under the umbrella of influence if someone wanted. If someone was studying influence, marketing or business in general they would read from a variety of sources. They would learn about people in general. They would not be scared of the sources. Words are just words.


You mean the book The Mystery Method: How to get Beautiful Women into Bed? I have that book and it's a good one. It gave me advice that actually worked on getting women, but I didn't think I could get any woman ever with it. However, if guys are having trouble losing their virginity that book would probably help them too I am guessing...



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14 Jan 2022, 5:56 am

KMCIURA wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Is that the reason why these incel men cannot get women, is because of their misogynstic attitudes, or is it because they couldn't get any in the first place, that caused these attitudes to develop in them?


It is like asking what was the first: hen or egg? (although obviously, evolution tells us it was an egg ;))

Incelsphere gathers a variety of people, who end up buying into this toxic ideology for different reasons. Of course, like every ideology, there's a more radical wing and more moderate one, but in case of incelism even moderate means off-putting and rotten.

There are guys who struggle mentally, but do not seek professional help - their struggles make it hard for them to have relationships with women, so they turn in direction of ideology which gives simple answers for their failures at finding love.

Then there are people who got in touch with this subculture at young age, when their minds were prone to adopt it without any critical thinking and became hypermisoginistic even though in other circumstances they would be able to find connection with women.

There are ones who are obsessed about sex - they aren't even unattractive or stupid (as in IQ level meaning) and could have a partner if they would stop being trash human beings, but they do not want that: they think that "chads" (a moniker they use to describe stereotypically attractive men with extravert personalities) have sex with different women all the time, with minimal effort and they want to be in the same position.

Some incels are victims of this whole coaching/pickup artists crap which was popular about 5 years ago - people were selling snake oil of lies, that if one learns manipulative practices, they will be able to get any woman. But it isn't the reality and those who bought into this idea and have not been successful in hooking up with women quite often see themselves as a failure and seek explanation what is the root cause - then, they discover this whole redpill/blackpill bs and become incels.

Some guys want to have a relationship with a specific type of woman: a supermodel (or at least one with hypersexualised looks). Incels use a "scale" of 1 to 10 to describe people's looks and quite often place themselves low on this scale, while placing girls they want to be with as 9 or 10. They believe that it is nigh impossible for a guy like them to achieve such relationship and forge their frustration into hate towards women in general.

Then, there are people who struggle with disabilities and gave up hope on finding a partner - most of the time, in the beginning, they aren't as radical and do not focus on hate towards women, but are severely depressed. They gravitate towards incelsphere because they seek people in a similar position (not being able to find a partner/have sex) and get a pat on the back over there. Over time, they soak up with this ideology.

Of course, you'll also encounter guys with conservative upbringing, who were raised with a view that women have a certain place in society. They weren't as "hardcore" in their misogyny in the beginning, but seeing that society has moved forward and most women do not want to fit in this outdated role model, they get frustrated because they cannot find a one fitting their expectations. Once again, incelsphere is the place they tend to end up, as their views become more radical over time.

It is a bit like with nazi party in pre-WW2 Germany. Initially, NSDAP has targeted working class people, posing as "patriotic" alternative to socialism and communism - hence the word "socialist" in "National Socialist German Workers' Party" even though the ideology itself have little to do with actual socialism. They offered simple answers and solution to complex problems and got a following from people who were most affected by Germany losing WWI and by economic crisis it suffered after end of the war. But over time, the nazi ideology has started to attract people who objectively, were in a much better position: financial elite, industrialists, artists and so on. They all bought into it for various reasons, from pragmatism to strong beliefs in nazi propaganda.

But is doesn't matter in the end, though. Every nazi was/is a disgusting person with dangerous beliefs, no matter how they ended up being a nazi. It is true in incels case too - they have different backgrounds, but in the end, it does not change anything.

NSDAP was the face of a form of collectivism that rivaled Soviet communism. Key features include the need to create a victim class and a common, oppressive enemy. For Germany, this meant elevating the German people by blaming Jews. Communism stratifies society into class—workers and peasants oppressed by the ruling class. The success of the party comes with consequences—the end of the revolution along with the motivations for it. National Socialism burned out quickly by realizing too late that nobody can wage an actual perpetual war beyond their borders. Through aggressive expansionist policies, Germany faced massive retaliation from the west. Communism, by contrast, rejected the idea of itself becoming a global movement. It is restricted to its host nation, whereas fascist movements are about building empires.

In principle, incel theory is collectivist. But I think it has more in common with communism. Fascists are about empire-building, whereas communism is isolationist. Fascists pin oppression on the minority, the “other,” and elevate the master race. Communists emphasize ruling-class oppression of victims and elevate groups otherwise deemed unfit. Fascism burns out quickly because of its aggressive policy towards its neighbors. Communism has more staying power through isolation and continued blame of outsiders for its plight.

And that’s where you find incels: always blaming others, never taking responsibility, and, unlike fascism, insists on self-isolation and a state of continual revolution against perceived bullies (whereas fascists ARE the bullies). If communists were to ever actually fully realize their goals, there’d be no need for further revolutionary government. Communism without a problem is a contradiction in terms, and so with incels there is never any impetus to actually make positive changes. Incels MUST remain involuntarily celibate, else they have no reason to exist. You can give incels practical advice all day long and it makes no difference. There will always be an excuse why it won’t work. They don’t WANT any advice to work because it upends their status quo when it does. The constant moaning isn’t any authentic complaint. It’s simply part of the incel culture.

The best thing you can do for incels is just leave them alone and give them what they want: keep stealing all their women and prove them right. The incel attitude is a contagious plague best avoided.

Before “incel” was ever really a thing, I saw myself the same way. The difference was I actually WANTED relationships with women. And when you want to achieve something, you’ll stop at nothing to get it. So I tended to obsess over it—reading paperback romance novels and women’s magazines, learning the piano and woodwinds, and staying as close as I could to “girly” kinds of things that gave me more regular exposure to women. I’m not saying this is exactly a healthy tendency, but it’s where I lived for a long time. So sexual experimentation was just a matter of getting close enough long enough to the right girl who could have been pretty much anybody. It was just that important to me, and I made sure to set myself up for it every chance I got. It seemed no matter what someone else always got the girl I wanted because he came from a rich family, drove a certain car, had personality, or was a bully. I soon noticed that many of these girls later on became unsatisfied in their relationships with Chad, and the smug self-assurance of these guys made it easy for me to fly under their radar. I know why someone like me would cheat on my girlfriend. Did anyone ever ask why it is women cheat on Chad? Because it happens. All. The. Time.

And ultimately I figured out that when it came to getting the kind of woman I wanted I was my own worst enemy. Throughout college I was involved with as many girls who were already in relationships. I’d been in a horrible relationship for a long time, and coming out of it I got to know women with similar experiences, or if they had good relationships the boyfriend or fiancé wasn’t really in the picture. That was the turning point for me because I wasn’t interested in a serious relationship, nor did I want to break up anyone. I ended up dating a virgin (who wasn’t a virgin for long after) and had a great relationship. We broke up since I was moving away, which was very sad, and I reunited with my best friend. She’d been dating one of these Chad types and was very unhappy. We’d sneak off and, well… We called the cops after he became violent. Once we got our respective lives straightened out we got married, and now we have 4 kids.

So if you really think Chad is out to get you, or you can’t get women because you’re not Chad, just remember it’s a two-way street. Incels never make it that far, nor do they WANT to. It would mean losing status if they did, losing identity. It’s much easier to complain and blame Chad for all your problems. It’s easy to build your whole life around that. The truth is relationships are HARD. I LOVE what I have with my wife. But it has required being 100% sold out and committed. I have 4 kids, my wife, and her best girl friend living under the same roof with me, all requiring my attention. I’m the only one supporting the family with my job, and it’s not fun living with the pressure of 5 or 6 people hanging their fate on my decisions. We’re not rich. But I love these humans I share my house with. And I think incels don’t fully appreciate the fact they don’t have the headaches of high-stakes responsibility and decision making. When you’re alone, you only have yourself to worry about. Now, being an incel is not about relationships, it’s about one’s perceived ability to trick another person into having sex with you. It is a theory about oppressors stealing all the women for themselves and keeping certain others from having access to sex. The truth is that sex is about procreation and the risk of pleasure leading to children, and sex can’t be fully enjoyed without the security of a significant other willing to take responsibility for those potential children. Yes, I’m aware that people have sex for pleasure and I know what contraceptives are for. But it’s no fun being with someone you know you can’t trust, hence why Chad is so attractive. Incels often are not the types of guys who can honestly handle responsibility. They just want the sex everyone else is getting. If a man is too insecure to approach women, too insecure to build relationships, too insecure in the sack, then he’s just flat not cut out for the long haul. That’s never an attractive feature. Even if an incel were to make the effort, what about other areas of life? Well, I can’t get a job because of this person or these people. I can’t make a lot of money because the 1% takes everything. Teachers are incompetent and don’t listen to me, so I just have to deal with my kid getting bullied at school all the time. My daughter cuts herself because of the mean girls. Or the waiter at that restaurant manhandles my wife because I’m just not tough enough to stand up to him.

I mean, what woman wants that? What woman wants to have sex with a guy who can’t possibly offer anything of value? It always comes down to meaningful relationships. One girl I slept with was having a difficult time with her fiancé. The trouble was they were living together, so if she’d gotten caught sleeping with me she’d be out on the street. I wasn’t interested in a relationship with her, she admitted she was falling for me, and considering the horrible timing of everything between us we mutually agreed to part ways while we still could end on good terms. They eventually broke up for other reasons and I started dating someone else who was NOT already in a relationship. But there it is…it’s actually OK to NOT be in a relationship. It’s perfectly okay to NOT have sex. And, honestly, it’s much less complicated. Never take the single life for granted.



KMCIURA
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14 Jan 2022, 7:13 pm

Very good point there, AngelRho. I too think that being an incel is all about mindset, not looks, money and so on.

There's a guy suffering from Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Hardly can move his limbs, needs to be connected to ventilator all the time, uses electric wheelchair. The guy is activist for rights and visibility of people with disabilities, supporter of LGBTQ communities, women's rights and so on. Works as journalist and is what I would call "an attractive mind". In past few years, he became pretty known in my country.

He is engaged with a great, beautiful woman, they'll marry this year and have been together for years. Met way before he gained any fame. They talk about interablistic relationships, giving interviews recently and yes - they also talk about sex. Seeing that erection doesn't rely on muscles, he is able to have an intercourse. They even starred in Durex ad campaign recently - "Love, just how you like it" is the headline of it.

This guy was, for his whole life, in massively worse position when it comes to fitness, looks, ability, financial status, than most likely 99% of people in incelsphere. Yet, he has found a partner and have a sex life. Why? Because he is interesting, caring and open-minded human being. It boils down to that.

I do not really like a word "Chad". I've met many attractive, extrovert guys who were very fine people and respected people near them and maintained healthy relationships. My close cousin is one, he's been with his now wife since high school, it was his second girlfriend and they are a happy couple. He is simply not a douchebag. There's no rule of thumb, really - yes, attractive guys do have easier time getting sex (just like attractive women), but not all of them want to or see sex as something that important. This looks thing is mostly about one night stands and short term hookups anyway. As you've said, being in a relationship requires effort and looks canny carry you only so far.

I've slept with few women in my life, never had to use any tricks to get them in bed. I am average looking guy with troubles in socialising, but what I can give is attention, understanding, care, companionship and deep conversation. This was enough. I've never really had to chase after girls, either, it always kind of unfolded from friendship and came to be in natural way, without any pressure.

I was once in a relationship with a married woman, it lasted two years. She was a person with high emotional needs and her husband was not giving her enough attention - he was focused on his hobbies, playing basketball, going out with pals, going onto road trips with them and so on. Even said that she does have friends to talk to about "girly stuff" and that he wants to be her man, not her girlfriend. She wasn't sex-starved, because one thing he was giving her, was sex. I worked with her, it turned out that we live close to each other, it kind of went from there. First just talking, hanging out, then a first kiss and rest is history.

Eventually, even though I had genuine feelings towards her (and believed when she told me it's mutual), I gave up on this relationship as it was going nowhere. She couldn't get herself to leave him, because she was coming from a very traditional, Christian background. Her friends, family - all of these people absolutely adored her husband - a tall, good looking (although no my type, definitely), conservative man pursuing a career of lawyer. She was afraid that if she would leave him, her whole life will fall apart - her mother, dad, sisters, friends, all of those people will reject her and put the blame on her. Plus, she was religious herself and on top of all of that believed that a marriage is a promise to god. This was most likely a genuine thing, I am atheist and she desperately wanted to convince me that god does exist to "save my soul from suffering, because I am too good for that". She even took me to church once to speak with a priest - a distant friend of hers. Kind of ironic, seeing that she banged a guy on the side, but I think her religious upbringing was not making it any easier for her.

I have maintained a bit of contact after ending it, seeing that we were still working in the same office for next few month until I switched jobs. It was a clean-cut. I bought some MJ from a guy from work, had a joint rolled and ready, invited her to my home, told her that this is it - either she decides to be with me, of him. Of course, she said that she cannot leave him for all of the reasons I've listed above. Started to cry - I've never seen anyone crying so hard. Gave her a joint (I am almost insensitive to alkaloids, weed doesn't do anything for me, but she smoked from time to time) to calm her nerves, made her a coffee and let her pull herself together. Told her that if this is her decision, I respect that, but I have to move on, as I want a real relationship, not just being a guy on the side - I want to be able to hang out with a girl without being on a clock, without worrying about other man's schedule, for her to stay in for the night and wake up alongside her - all sorts of these things. Advised her to never tell him, if she doesn't want to lose him too and told her to go home.

She tried very hard to play it cool for next few weeks. Still, she instinctively reached out to kiss me when we were saying goodbye (remember, we were working together still and quite often took the same bus home). Addressed me as "darling" or "my love" several times, still.

One day, she told me that she had a conversation with her husband - she was visibly struggling after I called it quit and became interested why his wife is so low and withdrawn. She has told him everything. You know what the dude said (presumably, I weren't there)?

"I suspected something, but was sure that such thing cannot happen to me."

What an as*hole, I mean. He thought that he is too good to be cheated on!

I couldn't understand why she has told him, so asked her straight about it. Response was "I was not sure of anything, any more and wanted to see what will happen". It was obvious that she was counting on him leaving her, so she can get back with me without taking burden of making a decision on her shoulders. But he didn't and she has not seemed happy about it.

It wasn't my problem. I was already seeing another girl, one that has eventually became my wife.

As for them, they have stayed together after that. Attended some marriage therapy at church. I do not know the rest, have not maintained contact after switching jobs.

I guess that's the problem that both stereotypical "Chads" and incels share. They do not pay attention to women and take them for granted. Instead of trying to be a good companion. Difference is, first ones get into relationships because of their looks and charisma, while others do not get into any as all cards are laid bare in their case.

I've once read a perfectly adequate sentence:

Don't ever make your woman go to another man for emotional support. A shoulder to cry on becomes a dick to ride on.

On a side note: I used Nazism only as an example of toxic, barbaric ideology which attracted people from different backgrounds and to highlight the fact that they were still, all Nazis - the path they took to get there is irrelevant. By no means I was saying that incel ideology is having a "framework" akin to Nazism.



ironpony
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Age: 37
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Location: canada

15 Jan 2022, 2:38 am

One thing about incels is that they often seem to be about under 25, at least the more public ones or the ones that gain more infamy.

But if that's true why is that? Do a lot of guys just get over incel issues more when they get into late 20s or 30s and that they are just more insecure when they are younger?



JimJohn
Blue Jay
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Joined: 20 Dec 2021
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Posts: 87

15 Jan 2022, 1:44 pm

ironpony wrote:
JimJohn wrote:
KMCIURA wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Is that the reason why these incel men cannot get women, is because of their misogynstic attitudes, or is it because they couldn't get any in the first place, that caused these attitudes to develop in them?


It is like asking what was the first: hen or egg? (although obviously, evolution tells us it was an egg ;))

Incelsphere gathers a variety of people, who end up buying into this toxic ideology for different reasons. Of course, like every ideology, there's a more radical wing and more moderate one, but in case of incelism even moderate means off-putting and rotten.

There are guys who struggle mentally, but do not seek professional help - their struggles make it hard for them to have relationships with women, so they turn in direction of ideology which gives simple answers for their failures at finding love.

Then there are people who got in touch with this subculture at young age, when their minds were prone to adopt it without any critical thinking and became hypermisoginistic even though in other circumstances they would be able to find connection with women.

There are ones who are obsessed about sex - they aren't even unattractive or stupid (as in IQ level meaning) and could have a partner if they would stop being trash human beings, but they do not want that: they think that "chads" (a moniker they use to describe stereotypically attractive men with extravert personalities) have sex with different women all the time, with minimal effort and they want to be in the same position.

Some incels are victims of this whole coaching/pickup artists crap which was popular about 5 years ago - people were selling snake oil of lies, that if one learns manipulative practices, they will be able to get any woman. But it isn't the reality and those who bought into this idea and have not been successful in hooking up with women quite often see themselves as a failure and seek explanation what is the root cause - then, they discover this whole redpill/blackpill bs and become incels.

Some guys want to have a relationship with a specific type of woman: a supermodel (or at least one with hypersexualised looks). Incels use a "scale" of 1 to 10 to describe people's looks and quite often place themselves low on this scale, while placing girls they want to be with as 9 or 10. They believe that it is nigh impossible for a guy like them to achieve such relationship and forge their frustration into hate towards women in general.

Then, there are people who struggle with disabilities and gave up hope on finding a partner - most of the time, in the beginning, they aren't as radical and do not focus on hate towards women, but are severely depressed. They gravitate towards incelsphere because they seek people in a similar position (not being able to find a partner/have sex) and get a pat on the back over there. Over time, they soak up with this ideology.

Of course, you'll also encounter guys with conservative upbringing, who were raised with a view that women have a certain place in society. They weren't as "hardcore" in their misogyny in the beginning, but seeing that society has moved forward and most women do not want to fit in this outdated role model, they get frustrated because they cannot find a one fitting their expectations. Once again, incelsphere is the place they tend to end up, as their views become more radical over time.

It is a bit like with nazi party in pre-WW2 Germany. Initially, NSDAP has targeted working class people, posing as "patriotic" alternative to socialism and communism - hence the word "socialist" in "National Socialist German Workers' Party" even though the ideology itself have little to do with actual socialism. They offered simple answers and solution to complex problems and got a following from people who were most affected by Germany losing WWI and by economic crisis it suffered after end of the war. But over time, the nazi ideology has started to attract people who objectively, were in a much better position: financial elite, industrialists, artists and so on. They all bought into it for various reasons, from pragmatism to strong beliefs in nazi propaganda.

But is doesn't matter in the end, though. Every nazi was/is a disgusting person with dangerous beliefs, no matter how they ended up being a nazi. It is true in incels case too - they have different backgrounds, but in the end, it does not change anything.


I don't know who said it originally but intelligence is being able to entertain an idea without adopting it. I like your post because it looks like you are considering a lot of information and trying to make sense out of it. I don't come to every conclusion that you do but that is ok. Your conclusions are rather good.

This is just my perception. I think the PUA community started with the guy name Mystery writing a book. Apparently, they had some forums that people posted on that followed that in time. It created a genre of books. The red pill came along from that. In the end it attracted a lot of people who never even read the books. I don't remember the Red Pill ever embracing the Incels. Their views were contrary. They definitely embraced MGTOW. They had a running joke about people having aspergers as the reason they wanted a script to use and why they had no social intelligence.

I think there is a broader political narrative in the world to divide people into groups. I don't tend to do it but I am not of the current generation.

You can actually use some of the PUA material for small talk. If you were to ask a girl in bar to pick out who in the room they would f***, kill or marry. They would think it is funny. You could even tell them where you got the game. It can beat not having anything to say. If they don't like it, who cares. If it is appropiate in the instance, you can be the judge of that. People learn games just like they learn jokes. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

PUA teaches that you are the prize. That is not a bad thing to learn or internalize. It might be contrary to what society teaches. But, sometimes the man is the prize. If you think you are the prize, you are. Why would you think it if you weren't?

I never believed that any woman could be picked up. That was obviously a sales gimmick. It is the thing called hyperbole in English. You can lump all the stuff under the umbrella of influence if someone wanted. If someone was studying influence, marketing or business in general they would read from a variety of sources. They would learn about people in general. They would not be scared of the sources. Words are just words.


You mean the book The Mystery Method: How to get Beautiful Women into Bed? I have that book and it's a good one. It gave me advice that actually worked on getting women, but I didn't think I could get any woman ever with it. However, if guys are having trouble losing their virginity that book would probably help them too I am guessing...


That's it. It isn't my favorite book but I think it is one of the first in a genre. I don't have to adopt any of it. I collect facts and ideas about everything and try them out if it seems worthwhile. That is what Budha told me, ha, ha.

Conversation is kind of a game. It doesn't really matter what anyone says to the contrary. Some of us may be ill equiped to play it as well.

One of the best things I learned in the conversational genre was to encourage people to talk about their interests. The key is to get people to talk about something they enjoy talking about. Then, you trade off and talk about your own interests. By talking about your own interests it encourages the other person to talk about theirs. It is a reinforcing cycle. If the the other person talks about their own interests too much that is a good thing. That means you are a brilliant conversationalist. That is great advice for someone with Aspergers because from what I have read they have interests.

What is really great about doing that is beating neurotypical people at their own game. They are likely not to be as good at a conversation like that. It's friendly and sometimes it can show the other person as not friendly. That isn't the goal however. The other person can be shown up for being a jerk or having gotten into a jerk frame of mind.

It is a fool proof technique for me. It isn't fooling anyone. It is friendly. If you look at it that way and all of a sudden you see through the pretenses of other conversations that are less healthy.

I obviously don't do it all the time. But, it does give you permission to talk about your interests. If you ask someone about their interests. You can just blurt out your own crazy interests after that, the crazier the better. I imagine it does help if you don't have anything to lose. I imagine you do have to fine tune it a little.



JimJohn
Blue Jay
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Joined: 20 Dec 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 87

15 Jan 2022, 1:53 pm

ironpony wrote:
One thing about incels is that they often seem to be about under 25, at least the more public ones or the ones that gain more infamy.

But if that's true why is that? Do a lot of guys just get over incel issues more when they get into late 20s or 30s and that they are just more insecure when they are younger?


It isn't cute anymore after a certain age. Many of the incel comrades probably have to get jobs and then the band falls apart.

It could be because each new generation seeks its own identity. It could be a fad identity. Every fourth generation is into revolution. It is something called the fourth turning. Maybe they are incels because it because it is revolutionary. They get mad about things that having historical names and other nonsense.



ironpony
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15 Jan 2022, 2:04 pm

Oh okay. But one thing about incel men or men around that age in general possibly is that they often complain about how women prefer older guys. Like women in their 20s going for guys in their 30s. But if guys complain about this, don't they realize that when they wait till their 30s, that the women will likely go for them more then too, if the young women prefer that? Is it a lack of patience that incels have or do they not see that they will reep their rewards later most likely?



JimJohn
Blue Jay
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Joined: 20 Dec 2021
Gender: Male
Posts: 87

15 Jan 2022, 3:32 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. But one thing about incel men or men around that age in general possibly is that they often complain about how women prefer older guys. Like women in their 20s going for guys in their 30s. But if guys complain about this, don't they realize that when they wait till their 30s, that the women will likely go for them more then too, if the young women prefer that? Is it a lack of patience that incels have or do they not see that they will reep their rewards later most likely?


My only experience with guys complaining about women going with older guys is like from a guy in high school not liking it when a girl dates a guy who has graduated that goes to college or has a job, a car and place to stay.

One thing I think some teenage guys don't realize is that men stay attractive in looks until something like 48. In looks you are competing with every man under 48 and some over 48 whose looks are fading. The rest is other factors. The 48 year old guy may have a beach house and money to burn.

I get it that children think their classmates should be their playmates. It is one of those things where reality doesn't meet expectations. A woman in her twenties has a higher sexual market value than a man in his twenties. She has men of all ages wanting her. She competes with no other age group. She is top dog.

A guy in his twenties maybe has a car, a job and a house. He is competing with 20s to 50. Once he gets those things in his thirties, he has more energy than a guy in his forties and fifties. He also has more potential. That is why 30 is peak. That is the only reason that is peak.