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StrayCat81
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11 Aug 2022, 1:03 pm

KitLily wrote:
I'm interested to know who these high functioning macho big ego autistics are?

Aren't most people who call themselves "hf aspergers" like that? I feel it works like kind of status symbol, to differentiate themselves from all the "losers"?

KitLily wrote:
often disliking themselves for being 'weird.'

Hmm, these would be "big ego" ones who failed at popularity contest? So in a way, might be even more dangerous, since they will pull down everyone around them? How much negativity and ableism one needs to have to actually dislike themselves just for being different?



KitLily
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11 Aug 2022, 3:57 pm

StrayCat81 wrote:
KitLily wrote:
I'm interested to know who these high functioning macho big ego autistics are?

Aren't most people who call themselves "hf aspergers" like that? I feel it works like kind of status symbol, to differentiate themselves from all the "losers"?

KitLily wrote:
often disliking themselves for being 'weird.'

Hmm, these would be "big ego" ones who failed at popularity contest? So in a way, might be even more dangerous, since they will pull down everyone around them? How much negativity and ableism one needs to have to actually dislike themselves just for being different?


Do people call themselves HF Aspergers? I thought it was called level 1, 2 etc. now. What popularity contest is that? I'm very confused.


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StrayCat81
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12 Aug 2022, 2:35 pm

KitLily wrote:
Do people call themselves HF Aspergers? I thought it was called level 1, 2 etc. now.

High functioning sounds more "able", and since humans tend to be very ableist, those who are well off and privileged often like to use this, to feel better about themselves. That's how I understand it.

KitLily wrote:
What popularity contest is that? I'm very confused.

Life in human society is that popularity contest. The less popular or privileged you are, the more abuse you will get. On the other side of scale, the more popular and wealthy you are, the better you will be treated. I think you even noticed it yourself:
KitLily wrote:
Same here. If I stop making the effort to contact others, they don't contact me first.

That's because they most likely perceive you as "lesser" than them, so they want you to make all the effort. It will make them feel more popular.



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12 Aug 2022, 9:06 pm

KitLily wrote:
Do people call themselves HF Aspergers? I thought it was called level 1, 2 etc. now. What popularity contest is that? I'm very confused.


I don't want to speak for straycat but I think 99% of Aspies don't think of themselves as a number. But if you are
1,independent
2,able to function in NT society
3.hold a job
4.in a relationship with an NT
5.capable of having NT friends

then it would be easy to:
magnify whatever minor issues you have out of proportion
assume you speak for all people with autism
assume that if another person on the spectrum can't do 1-5 then they are somehow "lower" on the spectrum than yourself



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13 Aug 2022, 5:10 am

StrayCat81 wrote:
High functioning sounds more "able", and since humans tend to be very ableist, those who are well off and privileged often like to use this, to feel better about themselves. That's how I understand it.

Life in human society is that popularity contest. The less popular or privileged you are, the more abuse you will get. On the other side of scale, the more popular and wealthy you are, the better you will be treated. I think you even noticed it yourself:

KitLily wrote:
Same here. If I stop making the effort to contact others, they don't contact me first.

That's because they most likely perceive you as "lesser" than them, so they want you to make all the effort. It will make them feel more popular.


An autistic man told me once that NTs are OBSESSED with hierarchies and jostling for position in the hierarchy, whereas autistics don't care at all, and so end up at the bottom of the pile and treated badly. So that fits with what you say. And of course in this increasingly competitive, capitalist world, people are doing this even more: categorising others as better or worse than themselves.

Depressing eh!

I suppose this is why people join groups like the Army, sport, hobbies etc. So they can get some status in life and be a big fish in a small pond...


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13 Aug 2022, 5:12 am

cyberdad wrote:
KitLily wrote:
Do people call themselves HF Aspergers? I thought it was called level 1, 2 etc. now. What popularity contest is that? I'm very confused.


I don't want to speak for straycat but I think 99% of Aspies don't think of themselves as a number. But if you are
1,independent
2,able to function in NT society
3.hold a job
4.in a relationship with an NT
5.capable of having NT friends

then it would be easy to:
magnify whatever minor issues you have out of proportion
assume you speak for all people with autism
assume that if another person on the spectrum can't do 1-5 then they are somehow "lower" on the spectrum than yourself


I guess so. I'm floundering because I try and treat people equally and don't see them as above or below me. But I am probably in the minority in life.


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cyberdad
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13 Aug 2022, 8:46 pm

KitLily wrote:
I guess so. I'm floundering because I try and treat people equally and don't see them as above or below me. But I am probably in the minority in life.


I think there's a simple rule of thumb. If you are able to function in NT society then by logic you internalise the social norms whether voluntarily or subconsciously.

So when seeking friends NTs tend to seek people who are socially their equal (in terms of status) or higher. This is where the term social climbing comes from. Despite people claiming to not see social status, the fact is we all do this.

I don't dispute your aspiration to not see other people as below you (I try to do the same). But I suspect subconsciously we hesitate to be friends with somebody who might be poor resource wise or have lower social status. In both cases these eat into our own resources and time and lower our own social standing in the eyes of our peers. When you have a spouse or a child/children then engaging in these types of relationships might be perceived to be selfish to your loved ones?



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14 Aug 2022, 3:00 am

cyberdad wrote:
KitLily wrote:
I guess so. I'm floundering because I try and treat people equally and don't see them as above or below me. But I am probably in the minority in life.


I think there's a simple rule of thumb. If you are able to function in NT society then by logic you internalise the social norms whether voluntarily or subconsciously.

So when seeking friends NTs tend to seek people who are socially their equal (in terms of status) or higher. This is where the term social climbing comes from. Despite people claiming to not see social status, the fact is we all do this.

I don't dispute your aspiration to not see other people as below you (I try to do the same). But I suspect subconsciously we hesitate to be friends with somebody who might be poor resource wise or have lower social status. In both cases these eat into our own resources and time and lower our own social standing in the eyes of our peers. When you have a spouse or a child/children then engaging in these types of relationships might be perceived to be selfish to your loved ones?


Really, I'm losing all my social skills and awareness after being mostly alone at home for 17 years. I wonder if I'm just seeing society from the outside and all its flaws. It just looks like a bunch of people competing now. There doesn't seem to be any group of people who are the same status as me, I don't fit anywhere.

I don't think I do function in a NT society, I've never, ever fitted in and even less so now. I'm just a kind of thing, floating around, lost in a sea of confusion.


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cyberdad
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14 Aug 2022, 5:35 am

KitLily wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
KitLily wrote:
I guess so. I'm floundering because I try and treat people equally and don't see them as above or below me. But I am probably in the minority in life.


I think there's a simple rule of thumb. If you are able to function in NT society then by logic you internalise the social norms whether voluntarily or subconsciously.

So when seeking friends NTs tend to seek people who are socially their equal (in terms of status) or higher. This is where the term social climbing comes from. Despite people claiming to not see social status, the fact is we all do this.

I don't dispute your aspiration to not see other people as below you (I try to do the same). But I suspect subconsciously we hesitate to be friends with somebody who might be poor resource wise or have lower social status. In both cases these eat into our own resources and time and lower our own social standing in the eyes of our peers. When you have a spouse or a child/children then engaging in these types of relationships might be perceived to be selfish to your loved ones?


Really, I'm losing all my social skills and awareness after being mostly alone at home for 17 years. I wonder if I'm just seeing society from the outside and all its flaws. It just looks like a bunch of people competing now. There doesn't seem to be any group of people who are the same status as me, I don't fit anywhere.

I don't think I do function in a NT society, I've never, ever fitted in and even less so now. I'm just a kind of thing, floating around, lost in a sea of confusion.


You are like a lot of members on WP, you seem quite articulate and likeable. A lot of these reservations about your capacity to socialise and make friends could end by joining a club/group/association. Common interests are big ice breaker.



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14 Aug 2022, 8:05 am

cyberdad wrote:
You are like a lot of members on WP, you seem quite articulate and likeable. A lot of these reservations about your capacity to socialise and make friends could end by joining a club/group/association. Common interests are big ice breaker.


Thanks but I've been there, done that. I've never done well in clubs. I've tried Meetup, Pilates, community organisations, local charities, dancing, (in the past) mother and toddler. I've tried everything. They just fizzle out with the common opinion: Who is this weird woman?? I'm always 'wrong' in some way. I was even told that I wasn't needed to volunteer at the food charity, but if I could go and spend lots of money there I'd be welcome. Erm...?

Pilates was good but all the other members were about 80.


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StrayCat81
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14 Aug 2022, 11:49 am

KitLily wrote:
Who is this weird woman?? I'm always 'wrong' in some way.

You aren't hurting some big egos by any chance? Humans seem highly narcissistic and bond by ego stroking, so flattery and "white lies" are paramount for socializing, while any kind of truth tends to be huge "faux pass". But if you do that, you will be effectively masking, and people will love your mask, but not real you... So guess either way is bad...

I have to do plenty of masking in order to be tolerated, or treated seriously. While volunteering at the animal shelter, or even with my support workers. And yeah, it has been no good for meaningful connections with hoomans, only for boring and annoying superficial ones...



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14 Aug 2022, 4:11 pm

StrayCat81 wrote:
KitLily wrote:
Who is this weird woman?? I'm always 'wrong' in some way.

You aren't hurting some big egos by any chance? Humans seem highly narcissistic and bond by ego stroking, so flattery and "white lies" are paramount for socializing, while any kind of truth tends to be huge "faux pass". But if you do that, you will be effectively masking, and people will love your mask, but not real you... So guess either way is bad...

I have to do plenty of masking in order to be tolerated, or treated seriously. While volunteering at the animal shelter, or even with my support workers. And yeah, it has been no good for meaningful connections with hoomans, only for boring and annoying superficial ones...


I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm probably not 'sucking up' to the right people, but people really need to grow up and get over that, don't they.

I work from home as an editor, that's a good job for telling people the plain truth because they need to know how to correct their work. I can't be subtle and hint. But it does mean I don't socialise or communicate with anyone much.


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cyberdad
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14 Aug 2022, 5:25 pm

KitLily wrote:
I work from home as an editor, that's a good job for telling people the plain truth because they need to know how to correct their work. I can't be subtle and hint. But it does mean I don't socialise or communicate with anyone much.


StrayCat81 wrote:
I have to do plenty of masking in order to be tolerated, or treated seriously. While volunteering at the animal shelter, or even with my support workers. And yeah, it has been no good for meaningful connections with hoomans, only for boring and annoying superficial ones...


To be fair even NTs have to mask at some level. It's called maintaining one's composure, practicing active listening and being polite etc....

Social anxiety is widespread even among extrovert NTs. The desire to socialise face to face is a driving motivator to compromise ones individual compulsions and control urges to blurt something that you know will cause other people to feel uncomfortable (e.g. personal opinions, expressing inner thoughts etc).



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15 Aug 2022, 6:01 am

cyberdad wrote:
To be fair even NTs have to mask at some level. It's called maintaining one's composure, practicing active listening and being polite etc....

Social anxiety is widespread even among extrovert NTs. The desire to socialise face to face is a driving motivator to compromise ones individual compulsions and control urges to blurt something that you know will cause other people to feel uncomfortable (e.g. personal opinions, expressing inner thoughts etc).


We do all that plus more though, don't we :wink: We doubly mask.


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21 Aug 2022, 6:46 pm

StrayCat81 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
This is one of the reasons why the autistic community needs to become much more organized than it is now. We need more than just support groups. For example, we need hobby-oriented social groups devoted to specific hobbies/activities that their members enjoy. We need spaces in which we (or at least some of us) can have (our own kinds of) fun together, not just commiserate.

Yeah, in local autistic fb group, I tried to find people who enjoy wandering around in nature for example, but surprisingly it's very unpopular... I also seem to be the only autistic who loves riding a bicycle there... The same with volunteering at the animal shelter, again, not popular at all...

You'll need to look in more places than just that one local autistic FB group.

Here on Wrong Planet, for example, I would suggest that you edit your profile to give yourself a signature line that briefly mentions your specific interests.

Hopefully where you are in New Zealand, it will at some point be possible for you to either find or organize a small group of autistic bike riders, and/or a small group of autistic hikers, and/or a small group of autistic people who volunteer at animal shelters.

StrayCat81 wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Hmm, it seems to be a common problem in generic "social" groups for autistic people that members find each other to be insufficiently "high-functioning."

I begin to suspect it could be opposite for me... All those "high functioning macho big ego autistics" just feel way too serious adult for me? Nobody does things just for fun? So maybe those with higher support needs could be more childlike, like me?

My point here is that, in generic "social groups," people in general (including autistic people, alas) tend to be more status-focused than they would be in groups devoted to specific fun activities, or in groups devoted to specific goals.


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21 Aug 2022, 7:07 pm

KitLily wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
What are your hobbies and interests? What kinds of recreational activities, if any, do you enjoy?

Hmm, it seems to be a common problem in generic "social" groups for autistic people that members find each other to be insufficiently "high-functioning." It seems to me that this would be less of an issue in more-specialized groups, e.g. in career-oriented groups or groups devoted to specific hobbies/interests/recreational activities. Yet another reason why we need more of the latter.


I suppose my 'hobbies' are quiet things like reading, writing, watching TV.

Are there any specific kinds of things you especially enjoy reading, writing, or watching on TV? Are there any specific topics or genres you are especially interested in?

KitLily wrote:
However, one guy on that site advised me to make friends via my hobbies e.g. he went to a model train society and made friends there. Some other things too but I can't remember what he said. He made a valid point, saying that hobbies which attract autistic people are good places to find friends. I need to find a type of hobby which might attract autistic people and go there. I suppose a book group but I work as an editor and I spend all day reading books. I don't fancy reading yet more books for a hobby :lol:

What specific kinds of books do you edit?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you, as an editor, could easily become an occasional guest of honor at various writers' groups. Perhaps you could contact various writers' groups and offer to give occasional presentations (either online webinars or in-person, if the group is local enough) on how to be a successful writer on topic/genre X?

KitLily wrote:
I like watching motorsport but we can't afford to go to any races or anything like that.

Perhaps there are other people with whom you could enjoy watching races on TV together?

KitLily wrote:
I think online friends are the only ones available to me

Hopefully you'll find easier ways to find online friends, as well as a more meaningful online social life generally.


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