I want the truth, but social policy makes that difficult

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CubsBullsBears
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20 Mar 2021, 3:28 am

About a month ago, I was welcomed into a weekly get together where we would play Dungeons and Dragons. It's never really been something I was interested in learning, but I've been doing my best going along with it so that I can be more social.

Anyways, among this group of guys is this one who I have known since the beginning of senior year(so 2 and a half years at this point). As far back as then, he, whom we'll call Zack, was dating this girl, whom we'll call Marie, who also went to our school and was friendly with me throughout senior year and after that. In 2020 I had 2 hangouts with those two and Zack's friends, so I kinda already knew them all going into this whole D and D thing.

The same night I knew that I was invited to D&D nights, I also found out that Zack and Marie had broken up. Zack has made it clear since that he's been hurting. I have helped him the best I can in his difficult time. And, I'm not one to wish that sort of thing on anyone but what happened between them seems to be good for me. He's now a single guy which makes him a bit more relatable to me. Although, perhaps him building friendships with others after the breakup can be a silver lining for him too. That'll make me feel less guilty. Lol.

This is where things get chippy. The guy who hosts the D&D nights at his apartment(whom we'll call Jake)allowed Marie to come over, apparently because she was Jake's friend first and that he doesn't want to pick sides. Ok, I get that.

At the previous D&D night 2 weeks ago(there was no D&D last friday due to other people's schedules), Marie had brought a new BF with her. This upset Zack. And it bothered me that Marie had brought her new BF with her knowing that Zack was going to be there. The following day, I sent Marie a text saying that I don't think she should've done that. Basically, she told me to F off.

Fast forward to last night(which Zack did not come to, btw). After I arrive sit down, Jake tells me "That text you sent to Marie, was not cool". Marie then became kinda bitchy with me, saying some things that make Zack look bad, like how he DID know that Marie's BF was coming over 2 weeks ago. I explained to both of them that I was just going off of what I knew.

Soooooo, it's ok for Marie to jump to conclusions about my intent and criticize me and not think though why I said that, but it's not ok for me to jump to conclusions bc I heard something from a friend of mine and criticize Marie. Wonderful.

The only good thing that happened last night was that Jake and I had a really good conversation about some things between then and when we started D&D. Nonetheless, I am feeling frusturated because this is a situation where I hear contradicting things from both sides. This sorta crap is nothing new to me and I do not want to be around possibly up-to-no-good people, and it is clear that someone is either exaggerating a fact or flat out lying. Maybe Marie is telling the truth that Zack isn't the good guy I see him as. It will be harder to continue a friendship with any of them if I don't know how good of people they all really are. If it turns out that Zack is the kinda person who's a real dick to his girlfriend, I won't see him the same way anymore and it would add to the long list of short-lived friendships/relationships I've had with people over the years that flamed out. I wish that there was a way I could ask both of them more questions without coming off as "intrusive".



kitesandtrainsandcats
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20 Mar 2021, 4:54 am

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Nonetheless, I am feeling frusturated because this is a situation where I hear contradicting things from both sides. This sorta crap is nothing new to me and I do not want to be around possibly up-to-no-good people, and it is clear that someone is either exaggerating a fact or flat out lying. Maybe Marie is telling the truth that Zack isn't the good guy I see him as.

Best I can offer after observing people in life and various social groups and gaming groups during my 2/3 a century of life is, I'm happy to hear it is not new to you, because it is pretty much normal and common human behavior.

Quote:
It will be harder to continue a friendship with any of them if I don't know how good of people they all really are.

It is entirely possible that they themselves do not truly know how good of people they are or are not.

Quote:
If it turns out that Zack is the kinda person who's a real dick to his girlfriend, I won't see him the same way anymore and it would add to the long list of short-lived friendships/relationships I've had with people over the years that flamed out. I wish that there was a way I could ask both of them more questions without coming off as "intrusive".

There isn't a way I've yet seen to ask without being intrusive.

:arrow: NOTE: if they are neurotypical then a substantial portion of what they say about their relationships is going to anywhere from wholly based on to somewhat influenced by their emotions involved in that relationship.
And it is often the case in relationships that if emotions about the relationship and documentable data about the reality of the relationship are contradictory, then the emotions are the default reality.

I have been in several situations in several cities where there was a falling out between mutual friends and I remained on okay terms with each.
Now, how much that might or might not be based on that I didn't touch the difficulty between them was undocumented and remains unknown.


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Mona Pereth
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01 Jun 2021, 10:18 am

CubsBullsBears wrote:
About a month ago, I was welcomed into a weekly get together where we would play Dungeons and Dragons. It's never really been something I was interested in learning, but I've been doing my best going along with it so that I can be more social.

Anyways, among this group of guys is this one who I have known since the beginning of senior year(so 2 and a half years at this point). As far back as then, he, whom we'll call Zack, was dating this girl, whom we'll call Marie, who also went to our school and was friendly with me throughout senior year and after that. In 2020 I had 2 hangouts with those two and Zack's friends, so I kinda already knew them all going into this whole D and D thing.

The same night I knew that I was invited to D&D nights, I also found out that Zack and Marie had broken up. Zack has made it clear since that he's been hurting. I have helped him the best I can in his difficult time. And, I'm not one to wish that sort of thing on anyone but what happened between them seems to be good for me. He's now a single guy which makes him a bit more relatable to me. Although, perhaps him building friendships with others after the breakup can be a silver lining for him too. That'll make me feel less guilty. Lol.

This is where things get chippy. The guy who hosts the D&D nights at his apartment(whom we'll call Jake)allowed Marie to come over, apparently because she was Jake's friend first and that he doesn't want to pick sides. Ok, I get that.

At the previous D&D night 2 weeks ago(there was no D&D last friday due to other people's schedules), Marie had brought a new BF with her. This upset Zack. And it bothered me that Marie had brought her new BF with her knowing that Zack was going to be there. The following day, I sent Marie a text saying that I don't think she should've done that. Basically, she told me to F off.

I assume you posted this to get feedback that might help you figure out the overall situation, so, to that end, here are my thoughts:

You weren't the host, so indeed it wasn't your place to tell her who she could bring with her. If you were going to poke your nose into this matter at all, it seems to me that the only appropriate person to bring this up with would have been Jake. And, even with Jake, it would not have been appropriate for you to tell him what to do, but only to make him aware that there was indeed a problem, i.e. that Zack was very upset by the presence of Marie's boyfriend, if Jake wasn't aware of this already.

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Fast forward to last night(which Zack did not come to, btw). After I arrive sit down, Jake tells me "That text you sent to Marie, was not cool".

See above.

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Marie then became kinda bitchy with me, saying some things that make Zack look bad, like how he DID know that Marie's BF was coming over 2 weeks ago. I explained to both of them that I was just going off of what I knew.

Soooooo, it's ok for Marie to jump to conclusions about my intent and criticize me and not think though why I said that, but it's not ok for me to jump to conclusions bc I heard something from a friend of mine and criticize Marie. Wonderful.

As noted above, what you originally said to Marie was "not cool" even if your conclusions were correct.

CubsBullsBears wrote:
The only good thing that happened last night was that Jake and I had a really good conversation about some things between then and when we started D&D. Nonetheless, I am feeling frusturated because this is a situation where I hear contradicting things from both sides. This sorta crap is nothing new to me and I do not want to be around possibly up-to-no-good people, and it is clear that someone is either exaggerating a fact or flat out lying.

Is there any reason to rule out the possibility that they were misunderstanding each other (not deliberately lying or exaggerating)?

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Maybe Marie is telling the truth that Zack isn't the good guy I see him as. It will be harder to continue a friendship with any of them if I don't know how good of people they all really are. If it turns out that Zack is the kinda person who's a real dick to his girlfriend, I won't see him the same way anymore and it would add to the long list of short-lived friendships/relationships I've had with people over the years that flamed out. I wish that there was a way I could ask both of them more questions without coming off as "intrusive".

If either or both of them ever decide to confide in you more about this situation, then you can perhaps ask some clarifying questions. But don't bring up the topic yourself.


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Fnord
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01 Jun 2021, 10:31 am

@CubsBullsBears: You criticized someone for making her own choices, so of course she told you off!


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BeaArthur
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01 Jun 2021, 2:02 pm

What Fnord said, and also: who gives you the right to tell other people how to conduct their private lives?

NONE of your behavior in this matter was cool.

And if they don't behave up to your standards, what, you're going to cut them loose? This sort of thing is why many autistics don't have friends.

You are not God. Don't be in charge of, or in judgment upon, other people's morality.


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CubsBullsBears
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01 Jun 2021, 2:22 pm

Defending a friend is not cool? Since when? Like I said in the thread in L&D, it is not my fault that I had heard conflicting stories from both sides. Also, Zack and I have actually become even closer of friends since they broke up, so don’t think for a second that I don’t have any sort of friendship with him. I have known him for almost 3 years.

And yet you prefer to defend the b**ch who others agree is treating me unfairly for that one misunderstanding to the point that not only is she still not over it 3 months later, but she’s going as far as to prevent me from possible having romantic relationship.

And regarding your “this is why many autistics don’t have friends” remark, that really comes off as you talking down on people on the spectrum. Like I just mentioned, I do have friends, one who’s already on my side on this and others who I’m sure will be.



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01 Jun 2021, 2:30 pm

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Defending a friend is not cool? Since when? ...
Sure, defend your friend, but expect the other person to attack you, as well.  Cool or not, that is just how life works.

Learn to deal with it.


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Mona Pereth
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01 Jun 2021, 4:04 pm

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Defending a friend is not cool? Since when?

"Defending a friend" is in general a fine thing to do, other factors being equal. But "defending a friend" doesn't supercede all other ethical and/or social values. There are good and bad ways to "defend a friend" -- and there are good and bad contexts in which to do so.

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Like I said in the thread in L&D, it is not my fault that I had heard conflicting stories from both sides.

As I said before, taking it upon yourself to tell Marie who to bring or not bring, to a gathering hosted by someone other than you, was inappropriate regardless of the truth or falsity of any of the stories. What did or did not happen between Zack and Marie is simply not germane to the relevant point of etiquette, which is that the only person whose business it is to invite or dis-invite anyone, to a gathering hosted by Jake, is Jake himself.

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Also, Zack and I have actually become even closer of friends since they broke up, so don’t think for a second that I don’t have any sort of friendship with him. I have known him for almost 3 years.

That's great, but not relevant to the points at issue, as far as I can tell.

CubsBullsBears wrote:
And yet you prefer to defend the b**ch who others agree is treating me unfairly for that one misunderstanding to the point that not only is she still not over it 3 months later, but she’s going as far as to prevent me from possible having romantic relationship.

Regarding the latter issue (as discussed in this other thread), the point here is not to "defend" Marie. The point here is that asking someone to introduce you to a potential love interest is asking that person to do a delicate operation on your behalf. Thus, even if the prior squabble had never occurred, asking Marie to introduce you would not have been a wise idea unless Marie were a close, trusted friend of yours.


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