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Kris94
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30 Jul 2009, 5:44 pm

Oh my god... they are trying to get rid of autistic people... This is pure evil. This is unfair. This is nearly nazi status, getting rid of autistics? routine abortion?! This is genocide, there should be mass protest about this!
I cried after I read this article...
This is sick. Just read the website. Its really scary...

http://ventura33.com/clock/

TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS! 8O


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makuranososhi
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30 Jul 2009, 6:02 pm

The fear of the consequences of prenatal testing have been growing since its effects on the abortion rates of those with DS and other identifiable conditions have been observed. The site you linked to contains multiple links and suggestions on how to combat this sort of eugenic nightmare, not encouraging it; I am not sure where the immediacy of the alarm you are raising is coming from.


M.


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30 Jul 2009, 6:02 pm

Scary. Why the hell did they choose a title like that??????? "genocide clock" WTF WTF WTF


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MONKEY
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30 Jul 2009, 6:04 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
The fear of the consequences of prenatal testing have been growing since its effects on the abortion rates of those with DS and other identifiable conditions have been observed. The site you linked to contains multiple links and suggestions on how to combat this sort of eugenic nightmare, not encouraging it; I am not sure where the immediacy of the alarm you are raising is coming from.


M.


You have just reassured me lol


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exhausted
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30 Jul 2009, 6:08 pm

pre-natal testing for autism? presumably so the mother can abort the fetus? really? how imminent?

i can't even see straight.



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30 Jul 2009, 6:17 pm

oh--i see. upon second reading: not for purposes of abortion, but for in-the-womb detection and "treatment."

hm. and just what traits would they presume to treat? all? which do they "choose?"

why not just eliminate the "humor" gene from the human species, or attempt to "treat" that in the womb.

it's true--we do have high rates of social anxiety, depression, post-traumatic stress do, etc. but i have a strong feeling this has little to do with genetics.

@#$%



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30 Jul 2009, 7:18 pm

As usual, the alarm is sounding about the wrong issue. In utero testing of fetuses is old, and the range of conditions that can be tested for continues to expand. Whether or not ASDs can even be diagnosed or treated in utero is an open question; current research suggests the best that could be done would be to identify a predisposition, since epigenetic factors seem to be involved. ASDs are not caused by just one or two genes.

But the more important issue is bioengineering, which now basically involves meds, vagus nerve stimulation, or the occasional brain surgery. But soon meds and surgery, plus neural implants, will create an entirely new landscape of possibilities, eventually changing the definition of what it means to be human (Aspie or otherwise).

A few people have been discussing and exploring this issue for a while. Most people do not even realize it exists. Like much of science and technology, it will simply take the majority of people by surprise.



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30 Jul 2009, 8:18 pm

bio-engineering--googled, but only haven't read all. would it be only for symptoms (such as epilepsy?) or for core traits? or is that the problem? who makes the distinction?

brain surgery? what would this be used for?



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30 Jul 2009, 9:36 pm

First off, research will go on and on. There will never be a decision not to know.

What will they do with the results? The usual - anything that brings fame & fortune. I'm inclined to ignore inflammatory missives - that one was so good (in its own frame of reference) that it might even have been professionally done.

Who profits by that web page? Is its stated purpose the real purpose?



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30 Jul 2009, 9:56 pm

Aoi wrote:
Whether or not ASDs can even be diagnosed or treated in utero is an open question; current research suggests the best that could be done would be to identify a predisposition, since epigenetic factors seem to be involved.


Well it is heritable so there should be a way to identify it by DNA. I dream of putting together a bunch of DNA samples of autistic people and sending it for analysis or something. The way i see it the reason why DNA research so far hasn't found anything is because all samples used have contained a mix of real autists and misdiagnosed people.

Aoi wrote:
But the more important issue is bioengineering, which now basically involves meds, vagus nerve stimulation, or the occasional brain surgery. But soon meds and surgery, plus neural implants, will create an entirely new landscape of possibilities, eventually changing the definition of what it means to be human

Beautiful words. It does change the definition of what it means to be human because it shows you in your face that all your instincts, tastes, memories, can all be replaced and you are nothing but a string of thoughts that rules over and is ruled by an ephemeral neurological array. It totally changes your views on happiness, the purpose of life. What if you could decide what makes you happy? Would it be equally satisfying if you were to say "ok i have a lot of rubber bands so i'm gonna rewire my brain so that the smell of rubber makes me happy"? What's the point of life at that stage? I do expect humanity to reach some higher enlightment from the oncoming psychological engineering.

Aoi wrote:
Like much of science and technology, it will simply take the majority of people by surprise.

awwww... poor close minded humans.... hehehehe... :twisted:

(now let's see if i can publish before that clock gets to zero)


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31 Jul 2009, 12:10 am

They act like everyone who tests for autism and finds out that their child has it will still abort it. Even people who know their child will be born with downs (for example) sometimes still keep it. It's like this discovery will suddenly make everyone pro-abortion. :roll:



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31 Jul 2009, 1:24 am

MizLiz wrote:
They act like everyone who tests for autism and finds out that their child has it will still abort it. Even people who know their child will be born with downs (for example) sometimes still keep it. It's like this discovery will suddenly make everyone pro-abortion. :roll:


Which is why I am pro-life on the issue of abortion. And pro-death on anyone who would even consider a genocidal option like this.


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31 Jul 2009, 10:06 am

exhausted wrote:
pre-natal testing for autism? presumably so the mother can abort the fetus? really? how imminent?

i can't even see straight.


May I ask, what is the difference between thsi eugenic abortion and eugenic abortion for Down Syndrome and other conditions, besides the fact that you are autistic and don't have these other conditions? I mean, I myself oppose this, but I oppose any eugenic abortion (and abortion in most cases for that matter, but that is a different thing since western countries don't encourage that), so it is a problem because disability isn't a reason for abortion.

Besides, there is no prenatal test for autism yet, and not likely to come one soon either. I don't believe it that there may come one in ten years, given how complex the causation of autism is (genetics with multiple genes, birth trauma, possibly even environmental factors, etc. all contribute). I don't see why this would be any easier than developing a prenatal test for mental retardation for example (not that I would was a prenatal test for that, either).



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01 Aug 2009, 12:12 am

ChangelingGirl wrote:
exhausted wrote:
pre-natal testing for autism? presumably so the mother can abort the fetus? really? how imminent?

i can't even see straight.


May I ask, what is the difference between thsi eugenic abortion and eugenic abortion for Down Syndrome and other conditions, besides the fact that you are autistic and don't have these other conditions? I mean, I myself oppose this, but I oppose any eugenic abortion (and abortion in most cases for that matter, but that is a different thing since western countries don't encourage that), so it is a problem because disability isn't a reason for abortion.

Besides, there is no prenatal test for autism yet, and not likely to come one soon either. I don't believe it that there may come one in ten years, given how complex the causation of autism is (genetics with multiple genes, birth trauma, possibly even environmental factors, etc. all contribute). I don't see why this would be any easier than developing a prenatal test for mental retardation for example (not that I would was a prenatal test for that, either).


no--this isn't what this is about. that was my misunderstanding upon reading the title. the real issue apparently has to do with early detection and "treatment." other people have been noting issues with bio-engineering, which seems to be a separate issue from in-utero testing.

if the early detection and "treatment" is even a possibility--again, i'm wondering--what exactly do they "tinker" with that makes someone "less autistic." which traits do they eliminate?

i'm not sure why they don't simply ask people individually what strengths they'd like to keep, what perceived "weaknesses" they'd like gone. IMO: give me some social skills training, find a way to increase my executive functioning, reduce my anxiety---set me loose on the world.

i really don't want to lose the gifts from this--i'm not even sure i want to lose my "odd" way of seeing the world. i don't understand why they don't ask for more input from the ASD community itself.


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Roxas_XIII
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01 Aug 2009, 1:49 am

exhausted wrote:
ChangelingGirl wrote:
exhausted wrote:
pre-natal testing for autism? presumably so the mother can abort the fetus? really? how imminent?

i can't even see straight.


May I ask, what is the difference between thsi eugenic abortion and eugenic abortion for Down Syndrome and other conditions, besides the fact that you are autistic and don't have these other conditions? I mean, I myself oppose this, but I oppose any eugenic abortion (and abortion in most cases for that matter, but that is a different thing since western countries don't encourage that), so it is a problem because disability isn't a reason for abortion.

Besides, there is no prenatal test for autism yet, and not likely to come one soon either. I don't believe it that there may come one in ten years, given how complex the causation of autism is (genetics with multiple genes, birth trauma, possibly even environmental factors, etc. all contribute). I don't see why this would be any easier than developing a prenatal test for mental retardation for example (not that I would was a prenatal test for that, either).


no--this isn't what this is about. that was my misunderstanding upon reading the title. the real issue apparently has to do with early detection and "treatment." other people have been noting issues with bio-engineering, which seems to be a separate issue from in-utero testing.

if the early detection and "treatment" is even a possibility--again, i'm wondering--what exactly do they "tinker" with that makes someone "less autistic." which traits do they eliminate?

i'm not sure why they don't simply ask people individually what strengths they'd like to keep, what perceived "weaknesses" they'd like gone. IMO: give me some social skills training, find a way to increase my executive functioning, reduce my anxiety---set me loose on the world.

i really don't want to lose the gifts from this--i'm not even sure i want to lose my "odd" way of seeing the world. i don't understand why they don't ask for more input from the ASD community itself.


They don't ask us for input because they think we are all worthless, retarded @#$%. I am one of the few who can get away with being "eccentric" rather than overtly autistic, and you wonder why I never tell people. In some ways autistic stereotyping can be worse than that involved in neo-Nazism and racial supremacy. It sickens me. It seriously does. There may come a day when these ignorant f***s get their heads out of their asses and do something beneficial for a change. If that day ever comes, let me know, and I MIGHT consider forgiving them.


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cc469
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01 Aug 2009, 5:51 am

IN reality i don't think most women should have too much reproductive rights... they are just one person (let sip the fact about near-nonexistence spatial thinking and smaller cortex about 1/6) one is unlikely to come up in my mind with enough reasoning or even right to take down human life after starting it's creatinon.
There is a difference between an embryo and a fetus whilst some abortions of embryos are the lesser evil needed to avoid worse consequences aborting a 3rd trimaster or even earlier fetus is not different than taking a baby and puncturing it's frontanelles with a knife. guess what it looks exactly like this in reality only they use a sharp rod... anyway only sick cold hearted doctors who are greedy for money perform these much like only greedy misleading lying doctors perform LASIK (in a nutshell the success rate they ad counts a lot of frustrated people who can't see to well at night and have dry eyes all the time) this is our world weave seen worse things happen on a large scale already so whoever disagrees with this due to feminism or "pro-choice"(not too many of you are that am i right?) or the like this would be no different if a man was pregnant or worse was trying to push for abortion ... which happens too.

Anyway threes little we can do in the end technology will advance and getting the techniques will be exceptionally easier and some 3rd world doctor will come up with it anyway to be used en-masse but in the end aspergers is genetic so it does not mean aspies can't maintain their population