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ruveyn
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21 May 2011, 8:59 am

The United States is not so much a Nations as it is an extended family quarrel.

(Thanks to Ursula K. Le Guin for the basic idea).

ruveyn



Sand
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21 May 2011, 9:39 am

ruveyn wrote:
The United States is not so much a Nations as it is an extended family quarrel.

(Thanks to Ursula K. Le Guin for the basic idea).

ruveyn


Right, and the Godfather has taken over. The morality of the Mafia is everywhere.



Philologos
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21 May 2011, 10:02 am

"What the United States really ARE", an it please you.



ruveyn
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21 May 2011, 10:15 am

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
The United States is not so much a Nations as it is an extended family quarrel.

(Thanks to Ursula K. Le Guin for the basic idea).

ruveyn


Right, and the Godfather has taken over. The morality of the Mafia is everywhere.


Hey! Its not personal.

ruveyn



iamnotaparakeet
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21 May 2011, 10:27 am

Well, regarding any arguments on immigration at least, the USA is treated as though it's the world's welfare state. Kind of annoying when people who don't live here just off the bat assume that all Americans are rich. They somehow fail to realize that even with the overly luxurious minimum wage of $7.25 that the cost of living is absurd enough to make $7.25 worthless locally and if one is unable to find work they don't even have that.



dionysian
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21 May 2011, 11:24 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Well, regarding any arguments on immigration at least, the USA is treated as though it's the world's welfare state. Kind of annoying when people who don't live here just off the bat assume that all Americans are rich. They somehow fail to realize that even with the overly luxurious minimum wage of $7.25 that the cost of living is absurd enough to make $7.25 worthless locally and if one is unable to find work they don't even have that.

:roll:



iamnotaparakeet
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21 May 2011, 11:27 am

dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Well, regarding any arguments on immigration at least, the USA is treated as though it's the world's welfare state. Kind of annoying when people who don't live here just off the bat assume that all Americans are rich. They somehow fail to realize that even with the overly luxurious minimum wage of $7.25 that the cost of living is absurd enough to make $7.25 worthless locally and if one is unable to find work they don't even have that.

:roll:


Mind expressing yourself more clearly than merely using a pretentious emoticon to show your lack of recognition of elementary sardonicism?



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21 May 2011, 11:33 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Well, regarding any arguments on immigration at least, the USA is treated as though it's the world's welfare state. Kind of annoying when people who don't live here just off the bat assume that all Americans are rich. They somehow fail to realize that even with the overly luxurious minimum wage of $7.25 that the cost of living is absurd enough to make $7.25 worthless locally and if one is unable to find work they don't even have that.

:roll:


Mind expressing yourself more clearly than merely using a pretentious emoticon to show your lack of recognition of elementary sardonicism?

I guess I didn't pick up on the sarcasm.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 May 2011, 11:42 am

dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Well, regarding any arguments on immigration at least, the USA is treated as though it's the world's welfare state. Kind of annoying when people who don't live here just off the bat assume that all Americans are rich. They somehow fail to realize that even with the overly luxurious minimum wage of $7.25 that the cost of living is absurd enough to make $7.25 worthless locally and if one is unable to find work they don't even have that.

:roll:


Mind expressing yourself more clearly than merely using a pretentious emoticon to show your lack of recognition of elementary sardonicism?

I guess I didn't pick up on the sarcasm.


I'm supposing you also assumed that since I'm just a "damn stupid fundie" that I'd actually think $7.25 is 'overly luxurious' even though it can barely buy two gallons of petrol or a single meal? Also with most apartments costing over $600 a month a lousy $7.25 an hour barely allows for rent to be paid assuming an employer schedules enough hours at random.



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21 May 2011, 11:45 am

dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Well, regarding any arguments on immigration at least, the USA is treated as though it's the world's welfare state. Kind of annoying when people who don't live here just off the bat assume that all Americans are rich. They somehow fail to realize that even with the overly luxurious minimum wage of $7.25 that the cost of living is absurd enough to make $7.25 worthless locally and if one is unable to find work they don't even have that.

:roll:


Mind expressing yourself more clearly than merely using a pretentious emoticon to show your lack of recognition of elementary sardonicism?

I guess I didn't pick up on the sarcasm.


The eye-roll emoticon is best used to compliment a sarcastic, condescending, belittling reply.
For good examples of this just look over most of my posts. :twisted:



dionysian
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21 May 2011, 11:55 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I'm supposing you also assumed that since I'm just a "damn stupid fundie"

Don't put words in my mouth... I misinterpreted. Can we just leave it at that?



Philologos
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21 May 2011, 12:12 pm

While I am not far behind anyone in critiquing the US of A - though my gripes are not always those of others - there is this, put to me by a student years ago:

How many of us living in the US of A would rather live elsewhere?

It may be crooked, but it is the only game in town for most.



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21 May 2011, 12:50 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarchy

Philologos wrote:

How many of us living in the US of A would rather live elsewhere?



Im actually finishing my degree as fast as I can so I can leave with a degree (rather than start all over elsewhere). I've lived in several countries and honestly, the only good things the US has over most others is simply a strong military, low internet cost per bandwith and the ability to find virtually any kind of product easily (this last part has become increasingly available in other nations thanks to internet commerce). Every other aspect of living in the US is much better in other places i've lived in.. particularly quality of life.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 May 2011, 1:23 pm

dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I'm supposing you also assumed that since I'm just a "damn stupid fundie"

Don't put words in my mouth... I misinterpreted. Can we just leave it at that?


I know it's not what you said, however being recently called it by another member here who claims to be a Christian is where I got it from. Sure, we can leave it at that.



Philologos
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21 May 2011, 2:51 pm

Dantac wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarchy

Philologos wrote:

How many of us living in the US of A would rather live elsewhere?



Im actually finishing my degree as fast as I can so I can leave with a degree (rather than start all over elsewhere). I've lived in several countries and honestly, the only good things the US has over most others is simply a strong military, low internet cost per bandwith and the ability to find virtually any kind of product easily (this last part has become increasingly available in other nations thanks to internet commerce). Every other aspect of living in the US is much better in other places i've lived in.. particularly quality of life.


Best spot? I have sampled seven enough to get an idea, and, well. I suspect I would prefer Durham to a lot of places in the US - even with this decade's economic and social messes much sooner Durham than Texas. And I cannot conceive of being in Florida more than a week. But most places I have sampled will not beat out the Upper Midwest.

I require access to a decent library, optionally a few real scholars withing reach [though the web cuts into that as requirement], mid size town with some access to the country side, moderate climate [between Torquay and Edinburgh, reasonable personal safety, acceptable food [between Kluski in lard and Haggis], and the possibility of surviving till I die on my income.

Those requirements actually cut out a lot of the US, probably all of Africa, most of Latin America, a lot of Europe, any part of Asia I know about.



Chevand
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21 May 2011, 4:20 pm

Philologos wrote:
While I am not far behind anyone in critiquing the US of A - though my gripes are not always those of others - there is this, put to me by a student years ago:

How many of us living in the US of A would rather live elsewhere?


Ooh, my ears are burning. I guess I'm sort of the poster child (or one of many) for the rhetorical counterpoint to your question.

I had many reasons for leaving the United States-- some of them personal, some of them political. Politically, I ultimately tired of hearing the whole jingoistic cliché of "if you don't like it, then get out" everytime I leveled some sort of criticism (mostly of the Bush administration), and I decided to call the bluff. For me, that old line is one of the biggest issues I take with the U.S.-- there's a belief among many Americans that the United States is sacrosanct, and that any criticism at all is sacrilege. But I'm an artist; one of the first things any artist is taught in formal training is that criticism may sting sometimes, but is how we grow and improve, and that there is a fine art to criticism itself. Critical thinking is how we solve problems-- and unfortunately, while there seems to be an almost institutional backlash against critical thinking, there's no shortage of problems. I'm also very uncomfortable with the upturn of inflammatory polarized rhetoric coming from both sides, as well as the feeling of political disenfranchisement-- the feeling that, regardless of who takes office, none of the candidates really speaks for me. I suppose most people consider multi-window shouting matches between this conservative and that liberal to be a more entertaining spectacle, but quite honestly, when I turn on the news channels, I'd much prefer to see civil, calm discussions about real solutions to real issues.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still an American in many ways, not the least of which is my legal citizenship. I still vote in U.S. federal and Florida state elections, by absentee ballot. I don't really hate the U.S. either. I love the U.S.-- I'm just not that thrilled with a lot of the people who populate it. But I still deeply believe in the merits of democracy, free speech, freedom of religion, and a well-regulated capitalist system.

And that's where your other point comes in. I realize that many people may see the U.S. as "the only game in town" for various reasons, but personally, I disagree that general standard of living or "unique nobility of American principles" should be one of them. The U.S. hasn't topped the international polls for standard of living in quite some time; these days, Canada and half of Europe are consistenly ranked happier, healthier, and longer lived. My own experience of moving to Canada was a bit scary at first, I'll admit-- perfectly natural for someone embarking on an immigration to a new country. But Canada's really not all that different from the U.S., aside from a few cultural differences. There are McDonaldses and Starbuckses here just like the U.S., and I can still drive to the mall when I want a new book or CD just like the U.S., and scores of people have iPads and iPhones just like the U.S., and in the part of the country I live in now, English is still the predominant language (though I have also encountered much more French, German, Mandarin Chinese and Japanese here than I did living in Florida). There are churches, synagogues, mosques and Buddhist temples here too. Just like in the U.S., there are nice people, and then there are jerks. Really, the biggest change to which I had to acclimatize was the climate itself, and even that isn't really too much different from if I had moved to Seattle instead. Some of the American conservatives on this site may claim that Canada enjoys less freedom due to its Parliamentary government, or that the socialized healthcare system is a bureaucratic nightmare compared to the U.S., but honestly, from a firsthand perspective, I really don't see grounded justification for either of those claims. Canada has been very welcoming of me, and I've never been happier or felt more liberated with my surroundings.


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