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cdfox7
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21 May 2011, 4:46 pm

ruveyn wrote:
The United States is not so much a Nations as it is an extended family quarrel.


50 dysfunctional family members!! so ruveyn what's the family dynamics like then?

mmm done's the USA need family therapy?



RedHanrahan
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21 May 2011, 5:25 pm

Philologos wrote:
While I am not far behind anyone in critiquing the US of A - though my gripes are not always those of others - there is this, put to me by a student years ago:

How many of us living in the US of A would rather live elsewhere?

It may be crooked, but it is the only game in town for most.


Does this mean I can send the ones that came here back? They're mainly whinging all the time how 'it's better back home' anyway, well except the ones that are kindred souls on the run from the state, they're welcome, you could even see them as refugees and as we're always recieving revugees from the worlds wars and the WC then they're as welcome as any - we welcome any decent person to our shores in as much as we can manage to accomodate a limited number at a time and have more regional obligations.

peace j


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21 May 2011, 6:10 pm

Philologos wrote:
"What the United States really ARE", an it please you.


Huh?
I thought you were an American.
What country do you actually live in?
Everyone in America says "the USA IS", nobody says "are".

Actually before the Civil War it was the norm to say "are" because the nation was actually thought of that way- a group of states banding together-and thus plural. But now we and the world view us as one nation with an unwieldy three word phrase as a name. I guess you didnt get the memo (did you know that they also freed the slaves too? ).
Sorry to be a wiseass but youre making a really odd comment there.



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21 May 2011, 6:12 pm

The day after election I am sometimes convinced the U.S. is more of a cluster-f*ck than a nation.

ruveyn



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21 May 2011, 6:16 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Well, regarding any arguments on immigration at least, the USA is treated as though it's the world's welfare state. Kind of annoying when people who don't live here just off the bat assume that all Americans are rich. They somehow fail to realize that even with the overly luxurious minimum wage of $7.25 that the cost of living is absurd enough to make $7.25 worthless locally and if one is unable to find work they don't even have that.

:roll:


Mind expressing yourself more clearly than merely using a pretentious emoticon to show your lack of recognition of elementary sardonicism?

I guess I didn't pick up on the sarcasm.


I'm supposing you also assumed that since I'm just a "damn stupid fundie" that I'd actually think $7.25 is 'overly luxurious' even though it can barely buy two gallons of petrol or a single meal? Also with most apartments costing over $600 a month a lousy $7.25 an hour barely allows for rent to be paid assuming an employer schedules enough hours at random.


Given that the USA has some of the weakest labour laws and poorest social assistance programs in the developed world, I'd find it absurd that immigrants would treat it like a "welfare state". Ignoring the fact that most people who illegally immigrate to the US to find work, work below America's already piss-poor minimum wage, assuming immigrants get luxurious deals on average in America is laughably ignorant.


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dionysian
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21 May 2011, 6:17 pm

Quote:
Does this mean I can send the ones that came here back? They're mainly whinging all the time how 'it's better back home' anyway, well except the ones that are kindred souls on the run from the state, they're welcome, you could even see them as refugees and as we're always recieving revugees from the worlds wars and the WC then they're as welcome as any - we welcome any decent person to our shores in as much as we can manage to accomodate a limited number at a time and have more regional obligations.

peace j

I'm... you do realize we all "came here", right? We are a nation of immigrants. Frankly, you're just expressing racist tendencies.



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21 May 2011, 6:23 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:

Does this mean I can send the ones that came here back? They're mainly whinging all the time how 'it's better back home' anyway


Lol red. Im actually trying to get to NZ! Lived there for a few months and loved it. US doesn't compare... next time you see one of those whiners smack them in the head for me :twisted:



RedHanrahan
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21 May 2011, 6:26 pm

dionysian wrote:
Quote:
Does this mean I can send the ones that came here back? They're mainly whinging all the time how 'it's better back home' anyway, well except the ones that are kindred souls on the run from the state, they're welcome, you could even see them as refugees and as we're always recieving revugees from the worlds wars and the WC then they're as welcome as any - we welcome any decent person to our shores in as much as we can manage to accomodate a limited number at a time and have more regional obligations.

peace j

I'm... you do realize we all "came here", right? We are a nation of immigrants. Frankly, you're just expressing racist tendencies.


Did you check where I am? And it's not racism it's provincialism - quite different things, it is also humour, mockery a little good natured elbow in the ribs and slap on the back to the poster quoted [whom I quite like] :roll:

Or are 'foreigners' forbidden this priveledge? Perhaps you should pull up your fellow countrymen for their overt racism and then I will take this comment seriously.

peace j


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21 May 2011, 6:39 pm

Dantac - that answers my question. I've wondered about NZ as an alternative.

Chevand - I know Canada moderately well from inside, mostly Ontario though we have friends in BC and I have hit Montreal for conferences. An upper midwesterner entering Ontario or NW coaster going to Vancouver does not notice a whole lot of difference except for some neighbourhoods looking a bit more British. Life style etc. pretty continuous. Especially in the academic trade. If I were going to change countries, I would likely want a bit more difference.

RedHanrahan: The stereotype has always been, Brits or Americans going to Ibiza or Lagos, establishing an expat enclave, mixing only with themselves and griping.

When I have ;lived elsewhere I have not been a great expat. Avoid my compatriots and gripe about the wrong stuff.



RedHanrahan
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21 May 2011, 6:46 pm

Dantac wrote:
RedHanrahan wrote:

Does this mean I can send the ones that came here back? They're mainly whinging all the time how 'it's better back home' anyway


Lol red. Im actually trying to get to NZ! Lived there for a few months and loved it. US doesn't compare... next time you see one of those whiners smack them in the head for me :twisted:


We are flattered, however we are a superficial bunch and we may dissapoint,but good luck, the deal at the moment is as follows,

option 1, makes swags of cash and buy your way in.

option 2, come here on a visitors permit and then go, underground and be an overstayer, life may be a bit difficult but you will have some good company [and one or two ratbags from the UK or Thailand :wink: ]

I met a lovely chap who was an earth first monkeywrencher that was evading 'the feds' by hiding over here and another avoiding going back to Iraq, came here via Canada if I recall.

good luck, peace j


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Philologos
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21 May 2011, 6:51 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Philologos wrote:
"What the United States really ARE", an it please you.


Huh?
I thought you were an American.
What country do you actually live in?
Everyone in America says "the USA IS", nobody says "are".

Actually before the Civil War it was the norm to say "are" because the nation was actually thought of that way- a group of states banding together-and thus plural. But now we and the world view us as one nation with an unwieldy three word phrase as a name. I guess you didnt get the memo (did you know that they also freed the slaves too? ).
Sorry to be a wiseass but youre making a really odd comment there.


I am as much of an American as many, more than some.

I totally appreciate you comment, not a problem at all.

I know what is normally said, and what I normally say, and what had been said [part of what gratified me in your comment] and "these United States". Part of me would prefer to return to the original and strictly correct usage [or say Union of States of America]. But modst of me knows I am porless to effect even righteous and reasonable change.

But to understand my drift you need to understand two things:

A. I enjoy speaking in a slightly off center way.

B. ruveyn occasionally mildly irritates me.



dionysian
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21 May 2011, 6:55 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
Did you check where I am? And it's not racism it's provincialism - quite different things, it is also humour, mockery a little good natured elbow in the ribs and slap on the back to the poster quoted [whom I quite like] :roll:

Or are 'foreigners' forbidden this priveledge? Perhaps you should pull up your fellow countrymen for their overt racism and then I will take this comment seriously.

peace j

My apologies. :oops:

I hear the suggestion that "they go back where they came from" quite a bit. It really makes my skin crawl, and I guess I have a knee jerk reaction to it.

I thought you were an American. And for that, I'm doubly sorry.



Dantac
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21 May 2011, 7:07 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:

We are flattered, however we are a superficial bunch and we may dissapoint,but good luck, the deal at the moment is as follows,

option 1, makes swags of cash and buy your way in.

option 2, come here on a visitors permit and then go, underground and be an overstayer, life may be a bit difficult but you will have some good company [and one or two ratbags from the UK or Thailand :wink: ]


Actually the NZ system for immigration is quite clear and easy. I had to go through the US immigration process and it really is insanely bloated and confusing.

Option 1 you describe is the investor's permit.. literally if you bring 1million USD or start a company where 25% of it is owned by NZ you get residence after 3 years of its operation.
Option 2 is illegal..if they catch you then you will never have the chance to apply for it again. Ever.

The regular path requires you to have a job offer of pay more than $45k NZD (skilled worker path)
...or have enough 'points' to qualify for one of the 50 thousand residence permits the country gives annually (I had 95 of the minimum 100 points due to my job experience.. if i had my degree I wouldve scored 160 which guarantees entrance pretty much..so this is why im doing my degree now) - this is the 'qualified' degree+job experience path. Not all degrees qualify for this.
Interestingly enough, when I asked the assistant in the immigration office she told me the absolute best way was to have over 100 points and be physically in NZ when you apply..it puts you on top of the waiting list. :)

...or marry a local (family path)
...or have graduated from an NZ university's 4 year degree. (student path)
...or be an Australian resident applying for NZ residence ( 'roo jumping path :twisted: )



... to lighten the mood:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6K8yfQYOTQ&feature=related[/youtube]



iamnotaparakeet
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21 May 2011, 11:14 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
dionysian wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Well, regarding any arguments on immigration at least, the USA is treated as though it's the world's welfare state. Kind of annoying when people who don't live here just off the bat assume that all Americans are rich. They somehow fail to realize that even with the overly luxurious minimum wage of $7.25 that the cost of living is absurd enough to make $7.25 worthless locally and if one is unable to find work they don't even have that.

:roll:


Mind expressing yourself more clearly than merely using a pretentious emoticon to show your lack of recognition of elementary sardonicism?

I guess I didn't pick up on the sarcasm.


I'm supposing you also assumed that since I'm just a "damn stupid fundie" that I'd actually think $7.25 is 'overly luxurious' even though it can barely buy two gallons of petrol or a single meal? Also with most apartments costing over $600 a month a lousy $7.25 an hour barely allows for rent to be paid assuming an employer schedules enough hours at random.


Given that the USA has some of the weakest labour laws and poorest social assistance programs in the developed world, I'd find it absurd that immigrants would treat it like a "welfare state". Ignoring the fact that most people who illegally immigrate to the US to find work, work below America's already piss-poor minimum wage, assuming immigrants get luxurious deals on average in America is laughably ignorant.


What I mean is that regarding any argumentation regarding immigration, America is treated as though it should be the world's welfare state. If America ever had a labor shortage again any time soon, such immigration would be fine, but right now we have a surplus and not a shortage.



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21 May 2011, 11:18 pm

Philologos wrote:
Dantac wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarchy

Philologos wrote:

How many of us living in the US of A would rather live elsewhere?



Im actually finishing my degree as fast as I can so I can leave with a degree (rather than start all over elsewhere). I've lived in several countries and honestly, the only good things the US has over most others is simply a strong military, low internet cost per bandwith and the ability to find virtually any kind of product easily (this last part has become increasingly available in other nations thanks to internet commerce). Every other aspect of living in the US is much better in other places i've lived in.. particularly quality of life.


Best spot? I have sampled seven enough to get an idea, and, well. I suspect I would prefer Durham to a lot of places in the US - even with this decade's economic and social messes much sooner Durham than Texas. And I cannot conceive of being in Florida more than a week. But most places I have sampled will not beat out the Upper Midwest.

I require access to a decent library, optionally a few real scholars withing reach [though the web cuts into that as requirement], mid size town with some access to the country side, moderate climate [between Torquay and Edinburgh, reasonable personal safety, acceptable food [between Kluski in lard and Haggis], and the possibility of surviving till I die on my income.

Those requirements actually cut out a lot of the US, probably all of Africa, most of Latin America, a lot of Europe, any part of Asia I know about.


As someone who grew up in Brooklyn, New York City I find Helsinki Finland definitely superior and the libraries are extremely well stocked. The internet well covers any library lack and Helsinki is as technologically advanced as anywhere else. Elsewhere is very satisfactory.



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22 May 2011, 3:17 am

Philologos wrote:
Chevand - I know Canada moderately well from inside, mostly Ontario though we have friends in BC and I have hit Montreal for conferences. An upper midwesterner entering Ontario or NW coaster going to Vancouver does not notice a whole lot of difference except for some neighbourhoods looking a bit more British. Life style etc. pretty continuous. Especially in the academic trade. If I were going to change countries, I would likely want a bit more difference.


You're right, of course-- there's not much difference in actual lifestyle, which is one reason Canada appealed to me rather than any other country. I'm not really fluent enough with any other languages aside from English to use them in daily conversation, and I'm content to be only 7 hours by plane away from my family so that I can still see them about twice a year. However, I have to say, as someone who grew up in the Bible Belt, the one thing that really changed everything was the difference in attitude. As it turns out, that's the only thing about my environment I really needed to change to be happy. I certainly never fit in the South.


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