Ohio, Chardon High School shooting, 3 dead.

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Sweetleaf
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01 Mar 2012, 12:15 pm

shartora wrote:
Feralucce wrote:
Cold blooded murder, I am not capable of, even in the midst of a full on psychotic break.


That you have not yet encountered a situation that has driven you to murder doesn't mean it can never happen.

Also killing someone while insane isn't classed as murder, not over here anyway. Therefore the above comment is correct if you are having a full 'unzip'.


I agree with that, I mean to me murder is when you intentionally kill someone for some sort of gain or something.....not if you have some sort of psychotic reaction to all the crap that's been pissing you off and end up killing someone. Yes its sad, its horrible and it sucks but its not exactly murder.


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Feralucce
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01 Mar 2012, 12:18 pm

shartora: BS to the implication that i can be pushed that far...

And sorry for the unclear antecedent, but the statement about everyone was a general response to all of those (including you) that instist on projecting their neurological behavioral template onto me. By insisting that I have just not been pushed far enough... you are stating that you know my psyche better than I.

BUT most of that was aimed at your camp - the "everyone is capable, you just don't know it yet" people, not specifically at you. My apology for not making that clear.


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Feralucce
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01 Mar 2012, 12:21 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I agree with that, I mean to me murder is when you intentionally kill someone for some sort of gain or something.....not if you have some sort of psychotic reaction to all the crap that's been pissing you off and end up killing someone. Yes its sad, its horrible and it sucks but its not exactly murder.


Legally, if you cannot prove a history of it, and most cannot... it still falls under murder... even if it is a crime of passion moment... I do not believe that there has been any mention of premeditated versus crimes of the moment...


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Sweetleaf
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01 Mar 2012, 12:25 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
I'm not capable of it therefore everyone isn't capable of it. People draw a lot of conclusions based on who they are.

I know I am not capable of it. I don't see how others are so calm and collected to commit violent acts. I would be shaking like a leaf if I pointed a gun at someone. Confrontations cause shortness of breath and something like a panic attack which is why I dislike profiling so much. I hate the idea of violence and I am sure there are plenty of 'good' people who believe revenge is great and shootings are justified if someone does something to piss them off. Such people may be over achievers with plenty of friends. They appear well adjusted and others may even agree with and support their views. Then, one day, someone comes along and does something they don't like or agree with and they feel justified to seek revenge, then they acquire a gun and shoot the place up, hoping they got the person they are pissed at, but not always.

The media doesn't hype such people as society's losers who act out. Instead they are portrayed as good people who snapped or 'are not well' which I read someone described TJ Lane as. People do not want to admit someone they revere as good might be a monster on the inside. A putrid hidden ulcer festering for years.


If I had enough feeling in me to shake like a leaf while holding a gun, I probably would not be pulling the trigger...chances are I would have gone into that numb totally empty feeling state, that I experienced during the event that caused my PTSD and on a few other occasions involving stressful situations and therefore unable to use any 'this is wrong' reasoning. I have never been in such a situation but I know for a fact when I am in that state of mind I cannot feel anything at all and therefore emotional reasoning would not work nor would trying to scare myself out of it by thinking about consequences. So that is the disturbing thing for me, luckily I was never pushed to that point due to students/teachers treating me like crap.


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Sweetleaf
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01 Mar 2012, 12:29 pm

Feralucce wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I agree with that, I mean to me murder is when you intentionally kill someone for some sort of gain or something.....not if you have some sort of psychotic reaction to all the crap that's been pissing you off and end up killing someone. Yes its sad, its horrible and it sucks but its not exactly murder.


Legally, if you cannot prove a history of it, and most cannot... it still falls under murder... even if it is a crime of passion moment... I do not believe that there has been any mention of premeditated versus crimes of the moment...


I know what it is legally, but I am saying what I would describe as murder and not murder. Though legally if someone is found to be not guilty by reason of insanity are they still guilty of murder?


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Feralucce
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01 Mar 2012, 12:33 pm

Since the only real definitions of the crimes are legal ones, that is the framework I prefer to stick to for this conversation. It is a handy frame of reference...

In response to your question, I do not believe that conviction has anything to do with guilt. Getting off for insanity doesn't mean you didn't commit murder, it just means that you were not in your right mind when you did it... and now will spend most of your life in a maximum security mental health facility instead of a prison.


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Sweetleaf
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01 Mar 2012, 12:34 pm

Feralucce wrote:
shartora: BS to the implication that i can be pushed that far...

And sorry for the unclear antecedent, but the statement about everyone was a general response to all of those (including you) that instist on projecting their neurological behavioral template onto me. By insisting that I have just not been pushed far enough... you are stating that you know my psyche better than I.

BUT most of that was aimed at your camp - the "everyone is capable, you just don't know it yet" people, not specifically at you. My apology for not making that clear.


The thing is you're making an un-provable claim.........I certainly hope you never encounter the conditions that might prove you wrong. But asserting it in that way kind of comes off as aggressive therefore people might get a little defensive of their own view that anyone is capable of causing harm to others or themselves if under the right conditions.

I mean I hope you never can do something like that, but to say 'it could never happen under any circumstance without proof.' is well frustrating to people who like facts. Not to mention just based on my past experience I never say and try very hard not to think 'oh that could never happen.' about anything horrid in general because last time I did that guess what.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 01 Mar 2012, 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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01 Mar 2012, 12:38 pm

Feralucce wrote:
Since the only real definitions of the crimes are legal ones, that is the framework I prefer to stick to for this conversation. It is a handy frame of reference...

In response to your question, I do not believe that conviction has anything to do with guilt. Getting off for insanity doesn't mean you didn't commit murder, it just means that you were not in your right mind when you did it... and now will spend most of your life in a maximum security mental health facility instead of a prison.


You see that seems to be a problem though, if someone commits a crime while in an insane state of mind....shouldn't the focus be on helping that individual with their mental problems and trying to determine if they would ever be fit for society again rather then just locking them away and throwing the key so to speak?

Yeah I was not very happy about what I learned in psychology about what should be done when someone is proven to be insane, and what actually ends up happening...lets just say some of these mental health facilities are more like prisons meant to punish someone for something they could not control..........rather then places to figure out what is going on with them and provide them the help they need. I honestly have to disagree with that.

If you haven't noticed I don't have very much respect for our legal system...some things are just so backwards and primitive seeming.


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01 Mar 2012, 12:51 pm

Feralucce wrote:
shartora wrote:

That you have not yet encountered a situation that has driven you to murder doesn't mean it can never happen.

Also killing someone while insane isn't classed as murder, not over here anyway. Therefore the above comment is correct if you are having a full 'unzip'.


1) insanity is not a psychological term. It is a legal one. There is no entry for insane in the diagnostics manual.

2) Respectfully, I say BS.

I have found that Aspies tend to be terribly self aware... We may not completely understand why we have a specific limitation, quirk or twitch - but we are, as a general rule, absolutely aware of them in ourselves. I know what I am capable of and what I am not capable of. There are only two things that can motivate me to kill... defense of self and defense of a another and those are NOT murder...

I am more than capable of killing. While in the military I did it more than once. In all three of those situations, it was me or them. I did it without hesitation or remorse, and would do it again. I am not ashamed to admit it, either. In one instance - I actually enjoyed it.

I am not capable of cold blooded murder. Go read my previous posts... in my psychotic state, rage and logic dictated that the only solution was to kill the source of the cognitive dissonance. I was not capable of it.

Several state that "you just haven't met the criteria that would cause you to do this." Others state that we are nothing more than animals.

I will yield that I have the animalistic tendencies that mark our species, but I am more than an animal, I am not defined by my DNA. Every day of my existence is a testament to that. To paraphrase what they said on the Isle of Dr. Moreaux..."I am an Aspie." NTs may find the situation where they are left no cognitive option but to commit murder, but I am not limited to those options. You say that I have not encountered the situation in which I can be pushed to that point... I tell you now, you are right. I will concede that I may be capable of it in some horrific alternate universe in which I was raised differently and imprinted with different experiences, opinions and data, but I don't live in that universe - and there is nothing on this planet capable of pushing me past that point.

Once you have a psychotic break, come back and talk to me. I am not one to say "You have no idea," but I am saying it. Not as a way to tell you I have faced more hardship than you, but to say I have been forged in a crucible of rage and illogic the likes of which most will never see. I KNOW MY LIMITS...

Do you?

So, please stop speaking for EVERYONE and only speak for yourself. Please, for the love of schrodinger's cat, stop trying to project your imprint onto someone else.


Based on this I agree you would not be pushed to bring a gun into a gun free zone and shoot people due to being treated like crap and finally reacting in an extreme way. If you can enjoy killing someone like you stated it would be closer to cold blooded murder then when a kid brings a gun to school after being pushed to their breaking point and shoots people. At least in my opinion.


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Feralucce
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01 Mar 2012, 12:58 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Feralucce wrote:
shartora: BS to the implication that i can be pushed that far...

And sorry for the unclear antecedent, but the statement about everyone was a general response to all of those (including you) that instist on projecting their neurological behavioral template onto me. By insisting that I have just not been pushed far enough... you are stating that you know my psyche better than I.

BUT most of that was aimed at your camp - the "everyone is capable, you just don't know it yet" people, not specifically at you. My apology for not making that clear.


The thing is you're making an un-provable claim.........I certainly hope you never encounter the conditions that might prove you wrong. But asserting it in that way kind of comes off as aggressive therefore people might get a little defensive of their own view that anyone is capable of causing harm to others or themselves if under the right conditions.

I mean I hope you never can do something like that, but to say 'it could never happen under any circumstance without proof.' is well frustrating to people who like facts. Not to mention just based on my past experience I never say and try very hard not to think 'oh that could never happen.' about anything horrid in general because last time I did that guess what.


I have gotten aggressive in response to being told that I am wrong about my own psyche. You cannot make a statement of absolute surety about the capabilities and particular behaviors of another individual, only yourself. The thread has devolved into two sides - one saying EVERYONE is capable, and I AM NOT... Having experienced everything that I have, I know I am in the latter. It is supreme arrogance to insist that EVERYONE is capable of it. My defense of my position has gone from being a simple statement that I am not, to an explanation, to aggressively defending what I know to be true about myself.

I have never once claimed that i cannot be pushed to the point of causing harm to another person. I have stated that I know, with absolute certainty, that I cannot be pushed to murder. I have simply stated that I know this about myself. I have explained that I know I am capable of killing, and have done so in what would be a "sanctioned" manner and situation. I am capable of harming someone without remorse or hesitation... I choose not to.

That being said - i dissociate when I get angry. When I am pushed beyond the point of rational thought, all emotion goes away and I am completely cold and logical. There is never a logical reason for murder within my thought processes. Knowing how I think, I can tell you that it will never be a logical choice. The psychotic break was the most anger I can ever experience. Some will beg to differ, but I say again, I was in my head, you were not. At that time, it was logical to remove the source of the cognitive dissonance and stress in the most expedient way possible - which was murder. I was not capable of it. Brain snapped, and logic and coldness returned.

End of story.

When I am basically being accused of being nothing more than a primate, I will get a little offended and aggressive in defense of one of the few things I do know in the universe - the inside of my own skull...

I do agree with the generality that MOST are capable of it, but I am not. And I will continue to defend that position.


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Feralucce
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01 Mar 2012, 1:03 pm

sweetleaf: I agree that our legal system is not at all what it should be... That is a discussion for another forum...lol...

As for the treatment of the mentally impaired in our legal system, it could safely be argued, that anyone that would commit murder is mentally ill...

People serving life sentences for smoking pot while murderers and rapists go free. Politicians...

I am going to stop now...lol


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Sweetleaf
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01 Mar 2012, 1:03 pm

Feralucce wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Feralucce wrote:
shartora: BS to the implication that i can be pushed that far...

And sorry for the unclear antecedent, but the statement about everyone was a general response to all of those (including you) that instist on projecting their neurological behavioral template onto me. By insisting that I have just not been pushed far enough... you are stating that you know my psyche better than I.

BUT most of that was aimed at your camp - the "everyone is capable, you just don't know it yet" people, not specifically at you. My apology for not making that clear.


The thing is you're making an un-provable claim.........I certainly hope you never encounter the conditions that might prove you wrong. But asserting it in that way kind of comes off as aggressive therefore people might get a little defensive of their own view that anyone is capable of causing harm to others or themselves if under the right conditions.

I mean I hope you never can do something like that, but to say 'it could never happen under any circumstance without proof.' is well frustrating to people who like facts. Not to mention just based on my past experience I never say and try very hard not to think 'oh that could never happen.' about anything horrid in general because last time I did that guess what.


I have gotten aggressive in response to being told that I am wrong about my own psyche. You cannot make a statement of absolute surety about the capabilities and particular behaviors of another individual, only yourself. The thread has devolved into two sides - one saying EVERYONE is capable, and I AM NOT... Having experienced everything that I have, I know I am in the latter. It is supreme arrogance to insist that EVERYONE is capable of it. My defense of my position has gone from being a simple statement that I am not, to an explanation, to aggressively defending what I know to be true about myself.

I know that which is exactly why I have made it very clear it is my opinion anyone can be pushed to do horrible things, most people I know of have simply not been pushed to that point......that to me does not prove it could never happen. Your certainly entitled to your opinion though but one opinion does not disprove the other.........I guess its more I see both sides trying to fight over who's right, and to me I dont think a conclusion about that can be made with 100% accuracy.

I have never once claimed that i cannot be pushed to the point of causing harm to another person. I have stated that I know, with absolute certainty, that I cannot be pushed to murder. I have simply stated that I know this about myself. I have explained that I know I am capable of killing, and have done so in what would be a "sanctioned" manner and situation. I am capable of harming someone without remorse or hesitation... I choose not to.


That being said - i dissociate when I get angry. When I am pushed beyond the point of rational thought, all emotion goes away and I am completely cold and logical. There is never a logical reason for murder within my thought processes. Knowing how I think, I can tell you that it will never be a logical choice. The psychotic break was the most anger I can ever experience. Some will beg to differ, but I say again, I was in my head, you were not. At that time, it was logical to remove the source of the cognitive dissonance and stress in the most expedient way possible - which was murder. I was not capable of it. Brain snapped, and logic and coldness returned.

End of story.

When I am basically being accused of being nothing more than a primate, I will get a little offended and aggressive in defense of one of the few things I do know in the universe - the inside of my own skull...

I do agree with the generality that MOST are capable of it, but I am not. And I will continue to defend that position.


Also I don't think anyone is saying you're nothing more than a primate, though humans are technically primates.......but that is all of us not just you.


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Sweetleaf
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01 Mar 2012, 1:06 pm

Feralucce wrote:
sweetleaf: I agree that our legal system is not at all what it should be... That is a discussion for another forum...lol...

As for the treatment of the mentally impaired in our legal system, it could safely be argued, that anyone that would commit murder is mentally ill...

People serving life sentences for smoking pot while murderers and rapists go free. Politicians...

I am going to stop now...lol


That is not necessarily true, because not everyone who has committed murder was mentally ill. Other then that, yes that topic is better fit for another forum.


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01 Mar 2012, 1:20 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
That is not necessarily true, because not everyone who has committed murder was mentally ill. Other then that, yes that topic is better fit for another forum.


I would posit that it takes a mentally ill individual to commit murder.


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Sweetleaf
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01 Mar 2012, 1:28 pm

Feralucce wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
That is not necessarily true, because not everyone who has committed murder was mentally ill. Other then that, yes that topic is better fit for another forum.


I would posit that it takes a mentally ill individual to commit murder.


I have to disagree, what about cases where people brutally kill a chick when they find out its a transgender male? for instance last I checked hate is not a mental illness but rather something everyone is capable of and can sometimes motivate violence. and that is usually what motivates cases like that at least the one I learned about in a documentary I had to watch for sociology.


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01 Mar 2012, 2:04 pm

But hatred does not lead to murder as a matter of course, does it? Westborough baptist church is filled with more hatred than anything else I have ever seen, and they have not gone on a murderous rampage. I have experienced hatred and have not murdered as a result.


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