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cathylynn
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Raptor
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15 Jul 2015, 6:00 pm

When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?


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Dox47
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15 Jul 2015, 7:04 pm

Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?


Normally I'd say that's an ad hominem fallacy, but this OP did the same damn thing to me one time regarding a Reason article, and then demonstrated that she has no idea what the word 'bias' actually means, so carry on. Try not to bully her too much though, or she might cry about it in another forum.


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cathylynn
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15 Jul 2015, 7:29 pm

Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

because they are quoting a harvard study.



AspieUtah
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15 Jul 2015, 7:47 pm

Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

The obvious reference is to the "Workers Unite!" call of Marxism. Strangely, the Communists and Marxists who I know are famously supportive of the Second Amendment and self defense. This fact makes me wonder about the political depth and breadth of Liberals Unite, or at least, its scrivners.

To the heart of the post: The primary claim seems to fly in the face of many dozens of studies which claim the exact opposite, not the least of which was a survey of incarcerated felons who admitted overwhelmingly that if they perceived or knew that an intended victim was, in fact, armed, they avoided the intended victim. That truth comes to us from the mouths of actual prisoners whose careers were illegal and violent. I need little other evidence to convince me of the basic logic that self-defense measures work day in and day out. The Kleck study that has been replicated several times suggests that 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year save lives, stop crime in its tracks and puts criminals out of business.


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cathylynn
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15 Jul 2015, 8:10 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

The obvious reference is to the "Workers Unite!" call of Marxism. Strangely, the Communists and Marxists who I know are famously supportive of the Second Amendment and self defense. This fact makes me wonder about the political depth and breadth of Liberals Unite, or at least, its scrivners.

To the heart of the post: The primary claim seems to fly in the face of many dozens of studies which claim the exact opposite, not the least of which was a survey of incarcerated felons who admitted overwhelmingly that if they perceived or knew that an intended victim was, in fact, armed, they avoided the intended victim. That truth comes to us from the mouths of actual prisoners whose careers were illegal and violent. I need little other evidence to convince me of the basic logic that self-defense measures work day in and day out. The Kleck study that has been replicated several times suggests that 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year save lives, stop crime in its tracks and puts criminals out of business.


cite one or two of these "studies".



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15 Jul 2015, 9:04 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?


Normally I'd say that's an ad hominem fallacy, but this OP did the same damn thing to me one time regarding a Reason article, and then demonstrated that she has no idea what the word 'bias' actually means, so carry on. Try not to bully her too much though, or she might cry about it in another forum.


Add hominy (or whatever) fallacies are only one of the many services I provide.
:P


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15 Jul 2015, 9:14 pm

cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

The obvious reference is to the "Workers Unite!" call of Marxism. Strangely, the Communists and Marxists who I know are famously supportive of the Second Amendment and self defense. This fact makes me wonder about the political depth and breadth of Liberals Unite, or at least, its scrivners.

To the heart of the post: The primary claim seems to fly in the face of many dozens of studies which claim the exact opposite, not the least of which was a survey of incarcerated felons who admitted overwhelmingly that if they perceived or knew that an intended victim was, in fact, armed, they avoided the intended victim. That truth comes to us from the mouths of actual prisoners whose careers were illegal and violent. I need little other evidence to convince me of the basic logic that self-defense measures work day in and day out. The Kleck study that has been replicated several times suggests that 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year save lives, stop crime in its tracks and puts criminals out of business.

cite one or two of these "studies".

I have in other related WrongPlanet.net topics.


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Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


cathylynn
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15 Jul 2015, 9:16 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

The obvious reference is to the "Workers Unite!" call of Marxism. Strangely, the Communists and Marxists who I know are famously supportive of the Second Amendment and self defense. This fact makes me wonder about the political depth and breadth of Liberals Unite, or at least, its scrivners.

To the heart of the post: The primary claim seems to fly in the face of many dozens of studies which claim the exact opposite, not the least of which was a survey of incarcerated felons who admitted overwhelmingly that if they perceived or knew that an intended victim was, in fact, armed, they avoided the intended victim. That truth comes to us from the mouths of actual prisoners whose careers were illegal and violent. I need little other evidence to convince me of the basic logic that self-defense measures work day in and day out. The Kleck study that has been replicated several times suggests that 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year save lives, stop crime in its tracks and puts criminals out of business.

cite one or two of these "studies".

I have in other related WrongPlanet.net topics.

i haven't been able to find them. help me out here.



AspieUtah
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15 Jul 2015, 9:22 pm

cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

The obvious reference is to the "Workers Unite!" call of Marxism. Strangely, the Communists and Marxists who I know are famously supportive of the Second Amendment and self defense. This fact makes me wonder about the political depth and breadth of Liberals Unite, or at least, its scrivners.

To the heart of the post: The primary claim seems to fly in the face of many dozens of studies which claim the exact opposite, not the least of which was a survey of incarcerated felons who admitted overwhelmingly that if they perceived or knew that an intended victim was, in fact, armed, they avoided the intended victim. That truth comes to us from the mouths of actual prisoners whose careers were illegal and violent. I need little other evidence to convince me of the basic logic that self-defense measures work day in and day out. The Kleck study that has been replicated several times suggests that 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year save lives, stop crime in its tracks and puts criminals out of business.

cite one or two of these "studies".

I have in other related WrongPlanet.net topics.

i haven't been able to find them. help me out here.

I don't have them at hand. For now, check out GunFacts.info ( http://www.gunfacts.info ). Also search for firearm studies by Jon Lott Jr., Ph.D., ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott ) and Gary Kleck, Ph.D. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck ).


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Fugu
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15 Jul 2015, 9:24 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

The obvious reference is to the "Workers Unite!" call of Marxism. Strangely, the Communists and Marxists who I know are famously supportive of the Second Amendment and self defense. This fact makes me wonder about the political depth and breadth of Liberals Unite, or at least, its scrivners.

To the heart of the post: The primary claim seems to fly in the face of many dozens of studies which claim the exact opposite, not the least of which was a survey of incarcerated felons who admitted overwhelmingly that if they perceived or knew that an intended victim was, in fact, armed, they avoided the intended victim. That truth comes to us from the mouths of actual prisoners whose careers were illegal and violent. I need little other evidence to convince me of the basic logic that self-defense measures work day in and day out. The Kleck study that has been replicated several times suggests that 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year save lives, stop crime in its tracks and puts criminals out of business.
it does fly in the face of said studies.
here's the original report divorced from the biased news report: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3515001188
The data was pulled from National Crime Victimization Surveys(2007-11) and notes that of 14,000 robberies(crimes involving property loss and injury according to the report.) where the victim was present, self defense with a weapon happened only 127 times.

Quote:
Methods

Data come from the National Crime Victimization Survey for 2007–2011, focusing on personal contact crimes. For property loss, we examined incidents where the intent was to steal property. Multivariate analyses controlled for age, gender of offender and victim, if offender had a gun, urbanicity, and thirteen types of self-protective action.

Results

Of over 14,000 incidents in which the victim was present, 127 (0.9%) involved a SDGU. SDGU was more common among males, in rural areas, away from home, against male offenders and against offenders with a gun. After any protective action, 4.2% of victims were injured; after SDGU, 4.1% of victims were injured. In property crimes, 55.9% of victims who took protective action lost property, 38.5 of SDGU victims lost property, and 34.9% of victims who used a weapon other than a gun lost property.

Conclusions

Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that SDGU is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.


Raptor wrote:
Add hominy (or whatever) fallacies are only one of the many services I provide.
:P
Hominy is gross :(



cathylynn
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15 Jul 2015, 9:27 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

The obvious reference is to the "Workers Unite!" call of Marxism. Strangely, the Communists and Marxists who I know are famously supportive of the Second Amendment and self defense. This fact makes me wonder about the political depth and breadth of Liberals Unite, or at least, its scrivners.

To the heart of the post: The primary claim seems to fly in the face of many dozens of studies which claim the exact opposite, not the least of which was a survey of incarcerated felons who admitted overwhelmingly that if they perceived or knew that an intended victim was, in fact, armed, they avoided the intended victim. That truth comes to us from the mouths of actual prisoners whose careers were illegal and violent. I need little other evidence to convince me of the basic logic that self-defense measures work day in and day out. The Kleck study that has been replicated several times suggests that 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year save lives, stop crime in its tracks and puts criminals out of business.

cite one or two of these "studies".

I have in other related WrongPlanet.net topics.

i haven't been able to find them. help me out here.

I don't have them at hand. For now, check out GunFacts.info ( http://www.gunfacts.info ). Also search for firearm studies by Jon Lott Jr., Ph.D., ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott ) and Gary Kleck, Ph.D. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck ).

lott has been discredited for fudging data. will check out the others.



cathylynn
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15 Jul 2015, 9:38 pm

cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
When the source is Liberals Unite :roll: why even bother to read further?

The obvious reference is to the "Workers Unite!" call of Marxism. Strangely, the Communists and Marxists who I know are famously supportive of the Second Amendment and self defense. This fact makes me wonder about the political depth and breadth of Liberals Unite, or at least, its scrivners.

To the heart of the post: The primary claim seems to fly in the face of many dozens of studies which claim the exact opposite, not the least of which was a survey of incarcerated felons who admitted overwhelmingly that if they perceived or knew that an intended victim was, in fact, armed, they avoided the intended victim. That truth comes to us from the mouths of actual prisoners whose careers were illegal and violent. I need little other evidence to convince me of the basic logic that self-defense measures work day in and day out. The Kleck study that has been replicated several times suggests that 2.5 million defensive gun uses a year save lives, stop crime in its tracks and puts criminals out of business.

cite one or two of these "studies".

I have in other related WrongPlanet.net topics.

i haven't been able to find them. help me out here.

I don't have them at hand. For now, check out GunFacts.info ( http://www.gunfacts.info ). Also search for firearm studies by Jon Lott Jr., Ph.D., ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott ) and Gary Kleck, Ph.D. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck ).

lott has been discredited for fudging data. will check out the others.

the gun facts site has a link to self-defense info that is not currently working. kleck's work is interesting, but has been questioned seriously for being out of line on the very high side compared with the likely actual number of potential crimes.



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15 Jul 2015, 10:32 pm

I don't suppose we could make this the last ever discussion about guns and/or the Second Amendment. I mean, really, this subject has been done to death already here at W.P.



cathylynn
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15 Jul 2015, 10:34 pm

lintar,

there was new information. that makes it worth discussing again.



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16 Jul 2015, 11:35 am

Bundled to save space; a lost art in the world of message boards.

Lintar wrote:
I don't suppose we could make this the last ever discussion about guns and/or the Second Amendment. I mean, really, this subject has been done to death already here at W.P.

Aint never gonna happen. It would not even be affective to ban such discussion since that would, in effect, ban the posting of news stories of shooting incidents which will naturally turn into gun control debates. Best advice if these discussions bother you that much is to simply ignore them.

cathylynn wrote:
lintar,
there was new information. that makes it worth discussing again.

You’ve got to be kidding.
I did read it and about all it is, in effect, is a compilation of tidbits from other “studies” . Like every other hot topic, all the gun control debates are comprised of are studies and statistics wars. Of course there are studies and statistics to support either side. Logic is only going to support one side of this age old debate, though.


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