Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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cubedemon6073
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24 Nov 2020, 5:22 am

Personal responsibility says that my circumstances are dependent upon the choices I make. Nothing is guaranteed in life means that my choices may not lead to the outcome that I wish for.

Let’s look at this a different way just to keep this extremely simple. We have Green and Black jellybeans. Each bean represents a choice. Green jellybeans represent positive choices and black jellybeans represent negative choices that one makes. We have 10 jars. Eight of the jars are filled 1000 green jellybeans and 200 black jellybeans. Two of the jars are filled with 1000 black jellybeans and 200 green jellybeans. Some of the green jellybeans will lead to better positive outcomes and circumstances and some of the black jellybeans will lead to worse outcomes and circumstances then others.

Destiny, fate, the nature of things, God, or whatnot makes it to where everyone has to choose out of these 10 jars. Let’s say I make sure I avoid the jars with the 1000 black jellybeans. I choose only from the 8 jars with the 1000 green jellybeans and let’s say I’m blindfolded or the jars are covered in a way that I can’t see what I pick out until I pick it out. And let’s say I take one out at certain intervals. Eventually, at some point I will pick out a black jellybean even if the chance is highly unlikely.

I chose the eight jars that had the green jellybeans. I end up with a black one which again represents a choice and let’s say this leads to a negative outcome and negative circumstances for myself and let’s add another caveat. I don’t even know that there are a few black jellybeans scattered within those eight jars with the green jellybeans. Was it my fault that I ended up with a black jellybean? Could I have chosen anything other then the black jellybean in that moment?

This is the issue with personal responsibility and why I see the whole thing as a bunch of poppycock. If I make the right choices and I still end up with negative circumstances then was my circumstances dependent upon the choices I made? Could I have made any other choices then the ones I made? Does personal responsibility make sense If one is guaranteed nothing in life? Does personal responsibility hold up logically? I don’t see how. And, that is why I think personal responsibility is a crock.



TheRobotLives
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24 Nov 2020, 8:48 am

Personality responsibility is about making wiser decisions, not outcome.


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Mountain Goat
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24 Nov 2020, 9:07 am

What if the black jellybeans taste nicer?



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24 Nov 2020, 9:24 am

I like the green beans better. They're very Limey.


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24 Nov 2020, 9:25 am

KT67
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24 Nov 2020, 9:32 am

I got distracted by jelly beans...

A lot of us aspies are brainwashed at school and told we'll succeed then brainwashed in the workplace and told we're useless and nobody wants to hire us.

It's hard to find personal validation from within when all your life you've had external validation. Like being the guy who was good at football in school but broke his leg and never made it as a professional.


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24 Nov 2020, 9:50 am

Brainwashing is like hypnosis: No one can brainwash you without your cooperation.

My life has been the opposite of what you described, KT; my teachers and classmates told me I was worthless and that I would never amount to anything; but once I got into college and then the workplace, my teachers, supervisors, and co-workers often commented on my success.

Except, of course, when they had been working for the company for twenty years, and I got promoted to a supervisory position over them after less than one year on the job.  Then it was, "he got promoted because he's white and a man" or "he's been a suck-up from day one" or some such nonsense.



KT67
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24 Nov 2020, 10:12 am

Fnord wrote:
[color=black]Brainwashing is like hypnosis: No one can brainwash you without your cooperation.


Yes but there's a reason you have to be 18+ to be hypnotised legally in a professional context.

Telling a kid they will succeed on the basis of being smart when they actually should be working on things like people skills/superficial charm etc will just set them up to fail.

A 12/13 yo is still a kid. You have to be careful about the messages you send to children, more so than when you're sending them to adults.

You can tell a kid 'you're smart' or 'you're good at this subject' without 'so you will succeed in life' if you let them know that life is about things like interviews etc not just smartest person in the room gets the job.

If I'd had known how my life turned out, I would've only bothered in subjects I actually enjoyed. I'd have taken novels to school and read the rest of the time. Then read in detention. When I got past my uni degree (this bit is in all seriousness) I would've studied an MA I thought I'd enjoy rather than one which was vocational.


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Fnord
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24 Nov 2020, 10:27 am

Well, if what you say is true, then why did I not fall for all of those disparaging remarks from my childhood?

I say it has a lot to do with accepting personal responsibility for myself.



KT67
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24 Nov 2020, 10:44 am

Some autistic people have better boundaries than others.

Some really don't care what others say.

Also honestly as long as a teacher is grading correctly, study is a lot more independent than interviews. If a kid knows the answer, they know the answer. If a candidate can't do subjective stuff like body language, they don't get hired.


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aghogday
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24 Nov 2020, 11:47 am



PeRSoNaL ResponsibiLiTy
Is About What 'Clothes' 'You'
Choose to FiT iN; When THere is A Choice of Course...

In College, i had a Choice, So i only Chose 3 Degrees

THAT i was interested in: Anthropology, Social Sciences Interdisciplinary,
And Health Science; i was already Increasingly Becoming A Machine as is my
Propensity as An Extremely Systemizing Human With A Really Big Head for

What 'that's Worth

As Metaphor of

Neo-Cortex Lost

From Deeper 'Colors';

Yes, Feelings, Senses,

Moving, Connecting,

Co-Creating Holistically FLoWinG

PArTs of Life NoW That Make A

Synergy of Life Breathing NeW

Colors Lit More Than RusTinG As A

Machine With Few Colors of Art iN HeART And
SMaRT as truly He and S and M Gets rather lonely...

Or Just

Plain

Dull With
Fewer Colors
of Feelings and
Senses to EnJoy As

Just Good Old Bliss Always New Colors

Now; Don't Get me Wrong, Becoming Financially
Independent by Age 47, Took A Lot of Twists And Turns
Beneath the City in the Sewer Systems of DarK AS Such...

Butt It Was All Worth

IT As Now Is All THeRE

IS And Hell Got me to Heaven

Within now; i LEarned Much more

From my Mother's Poor Side of the

Family as it was Colored With Love;

The Other Side Colored With Ambition

Of Only Money and Stuff had No Colors at

All Yet IT

Didn't

Matter

As They

Were Already

Color Blind but You

See it's Like Parosmia
When Sense of Smell
Is Destroyed and it
Comes Back
As Rotting

Flesh;

i've Experienced
that too along with
Loss of Effective Use of the
Other Four 'Normal' Senses
too From A Common Cold
in 2017; Before Covid-19

(Plus, Most All Colors
of Emotions, True, too)

Was Just an

Itch

iN A
Bat's Dream
LoSinG itS Habitat then
to Human Ignorance too..

You See ALL THAT Is 'Parosmia'
to me Now; The Rotting Flesh
All Self-Centered Externally
Around Money and Stuff

Colors

Oh

So Many

Colors indeed

i Took Personal

Responsibility to

Color Life Early
as i surely

Could Have Then
Become More of a
Money Machine And Have
Extra 'Soylent Green Stuff'

in the
Bank

My

Wife

Eventually Spends...

She Wants a New

SUV;

i Deliver

The Goods,

Always Personally

Responsible for the Colors i am...

Meh; More Retirement

Money coming

in Soon

She

Doesn't

Drive; She'll

Get Another

Ride Soon Enough

It's Just Her Money

Anyway, heHe...

i Donate

It All

to the

Hands

That

Feed me;

as i Verily

want

none

of that

Parsomia to Breathe...

Honestly, How Many People

Give 'Everything' Up Not to Ever

Truly NoW BREaTHE NeW Colors of Life Free

A Child's

SMiLes; A Child's

Dances; Babbling Songs

With No ReaSons SaMe

JusT A River

A Poem

With

No Paint

By Numbers

Rhyming Just

FLoWinG NoW

Flooding With

Shores Playing

Naturally Expanding

And Receding Waves Water Ocean Whole

Man (And Or Woman) THiS HEaven Thingie IS A ReAlly Free Breeze

Eternally Now When 'Counts' Becomes Really Real Colors of WinD NeW...

i Was/Am Conservative Enough Not To 'Consume';

Therefore, i am Liberal Enough Now To Be Free...

Giving And

Sharing

What

i Still

Never Run

Out of 'Within';

Amazingly Some

Folks 'Have' NO CLUE

AT ALL What This

Experience
i am
SPeaKinG

Of Within NoW is

How Can 'You' Take

Personal Responsibility

That NO ONE EVER TELLS Ya

IS A POTENTiAL THaT EXiSTS NOW;

Credit All stuff

'Capitalism of

Competition'

Over 'Cooperation (Love)

For All'; Yes, Organized

Deceit for Gain; School

Standardized In

Grey Scale

PriSon Along with

Work, Church, And Even Home Breath too...

Imagine How Much Freedom One Saves by

Not Paying Attention to TRULY 'INSANE' CONSUMER CuLTuRE...

LocKeD iN DeaDLiNeS Never SPiRaLinG Free CLoCKS

Indeed, i
Empirically
MeASure this
Freedom Day By
Day Now Eternally Now...

While the Others Shop i Weave
Through Them Free As the
Breeze Dancing Singing

As Any

Child

Yet

Indoctrinated

As Consumer of

All Stuff That Does NOT Color Life Free...

Soylent Green, Soylent Green, Consuming

All that

Human Is...

Yes, i take
Personality
Responsibility

Not to

Restrict

My Life

And Nourishment

to Soylent Green, Soylent Green...

i REALIZE in CuLTuReS Humans are

Not Evolved to ThriVE iN A Necessary

'Evil' Just to Survive; Soylent Green, Soylent Green...

Meanwhile, i take Personal Responsibility for my Joy

By Dancing

And Singing

FoR ANoTHeR NO

ReaSoN But Bliss...

Funny How Folks

Believe Bliss Is Sin

And Never Find

the FLoWinG

BLiSS SaMe For

ReaL ETerNAlly Now Within...

It Was/Is Already SOld So Long Ago

in 'A Book' And More in Empty SHells of Words...

i LiVE iN

A SHell

i'm Not For Sale....

This Isn't Monday Anymore,

Or Sunday; Yet It'S ETeRNaLLY

NoW NeW STiLL mY FunDay..

Other Than That/This

True i am

JusT FoRTuNaTE too...

As Every Breath Is A New Color A Gift...

Yes; i have Enough PeRSoNaL Responsibility to

Come to See

Life is Good Now...

As This Breath Is Enough for me...

And At Least on All the Colors

Of Shirts My Wife Gets

Online that

Say

in Shells

And Flowers

Sea Life And

The Such

Imprinted

On Her Shirts

"Life is Good";
SHell or ReaL, We
BReATHE More Colors Or Do Not Now...


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Antrax
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24 Nov 2020, 2:10 pm

In life there are things you can control, and things you can't.

Better decisions in the things you can control will lead to better outcomes, but sometimes the factors outside your control predominate. As a quick example not much you can do if you get a terminal illness at a young age.

That said the counter-philosophy that because sometimes factors outside your control predominate that your choices are meaningless is incredibly toxic.

Understand what you can control, and what you can't. Take responsibility for that which is in your power.


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Antrax
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24 Nov 2020, 2:18 pm

By the way if you think life is just luck and that decisions don't matter because of randomness I recommend playing a skill based game with a heavy amount of randomness against someone that is very skilled in that game.

If you're familiar with the board game Settlers of Catan it's a good example. Play someone who is really good at the game, and witness them consistently get to 10 victory points before you almost regardless of how the dice rolls pan out.

A more classic example is Poker. Any given hand is luck based, but over time the players that make better decisions will win more money. Go to a table with all good players and watch your money become their money.


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cubedemon6073
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24 Nov 2020, 7:39 pm

Antrax wrote:
In life there are things you can control, and things you can't.


Of course!

Better decisions in the things you can control will lead to better outcomes, but sometimes the factors outside your control predominate. As a quick example not much you can do if you get a terminal illness at a young age.

Of course!

That said the counter-philosophy that because sometimes factors outside your control predominate that your choices are meaningless is incredibly toxic.

The thing is I don't believe that choices are meaningless either. I believe the control over our lives is more limited then conservative and personal responsibility types believe. I don't believe we have as much control as they would have you believe and because of that I think they do a lot of victim blaming.

Of course one should make positive choices and try to avoid negative ones.

Quote:
Understand what you can control, and what you can't. Take responsibility for that which is in your power.


Agreed! Thing is though my experience is that I and others may disagree on how much I can control and what is truthfully in my power.

The problem that I have and maybe I should have explained a bit better in hindsight is that it isn't personal responsibility and choices I have an issue with its the absoluteness how conservative, personal responsibility advocate types take it to that I have an issue is.

What I think is true is:

a. We have choices.
b. Our choices are limited due to things beyond our control

Both a and b are true. So, personal responsibility and choice is true to a certain extent yet so is fate, destiny, and things being out of your hand is also true.

c. Both extremes and the absoluteness of either a and b are negative.

d. I think a more middle ground is needed.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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24 Nov 2020, 8:08 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
This is the issue with personal responsibility and why I see the whole thing as a bunch of poppycock. If I make the right choices and I still end up with negative circumstances then was my circumstances dependent upon the choices I made? Could I have made any other choices then the ones I made? Does personal responsibility make sense If one is guaranteed nothing in life? Does personal responsibility hold up logically? I don’t see how. And, that is why I think personal responsibility is a crock.


An individual person's personal responsibility is part of an intermeshed system of everyone's personal responsibilities in each of several scales of effect from small and narrow to large and wide.

Re: "If I make the right choices and I still end up with negative circumstances then was my circumstances dependent upon the choices I made?"
In some ways no and yes at the same time for the same thing.
Illustration:
Let's say you are driving somewhere and you take personal responsibility to follow the traffic rules and stop at a red light.
Someone else does not and they choose to run the light from the opposing direction, then hit a car crossing on the green for their direction and both cars crash in to your car where you had responsibly stopped at the red light.

Ultimate fault and consequences are on the driver who irresponsibly chose to run the red.
Their lack of personal responsibility negatively impact your life.

Your personal responsibility is that if you hadn't chosen to travel that route at that time then you would not have been in that wreck, which in no way makes the wreck any fault of yours nor gives you any responsibility for its cause, the sole cause was the person who rejected their personal responsibility and chose to run the red. And you are perfectly justified in choosing to travel by that route at that time with the totally reasonable expectation and understanding that doing so would be safe and normal.

(but what if their brakes had failed? But what if they had a medical emergency? But what if I'd gone a different route and had a wreck anyway? But what if ...? But what if ...? But what if ...? But what if ...? But what if ...? But what if ...? But what if ...? But what if ...? But what if ...? -- but what if there are infinite what ifs?)

Re: Could I have made any other choices then the ones I made?
Both yes and no. The choices you made were a result of the factors which led to making that choice.
Sometimes those factors can be willfully ignored or overcome and sometimes not.
Sometimes the range of available choices in some situations demands certain choices, sometimes not.
For instance, true or false questions on tests, you can chose T, F, or skip the question.

Here's a personal responsibility question from my life yesterday;
After an argument in the apartment manager's office the neighbor involved left for a time then returned to the office and threatened to shoot me. She is bipolar and on medication. Was she able to apply personal responsibility and chose to not threaten me or does the disease prevent her from exercising her will to control her actions?


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