Reply personal responsibility is a crock: here is why

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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 6:53 am

I believe the point is not to PRECLUDE success even if the odds are apparently against you.

And if you’re not a “success” in one aspect of life, you could be a success in another. One could be scientifically successful, say, without being socially successful.

There are many manifestations of success…not all of them are of a conventionally successful nature.

The “personal responsibility” aspect, to me, implies that one should never give up, no matter what. Setbacks are inevitable….but they usually could be overcome in some fashion.

I can barely screw in a lightbulb….and I suck in making money—this does not preclude me from success in other fields of endeavor.



browneyedgirlslowingdown
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09 Jun 2021, 10:45 am

Hmmm, I view personal responsibility as a response to outcomes based on my choices. Choices do not occur in a vacuum, they are shaped by someone's intersectional identity which comes with race, class, nationality, so and so forth. So it's not as simple as jelly beans. Someone born in Mexico City versus Lagos isn't going to have the same choices or the same type of choices, even if the choices are equal as the way they choose will be shaped by culture. So for me I accept that life is hard and full of suffering (Buddhism), I also accept that nothing is black and white, and it's completely gray, regardless of my choices there will be positive and negative outcomes. The question is am I responsible enough to deal with those outcomes? With the complexities of life? For example to some women having children and getting married are positive choices, but to me, they have costs associated with them, as does not getting married and having children. I am personally responsible for dealing with the outcomes regardless. I don't think seeing anything as black and white makes any sentence, nothing is all good or all bad.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 10:59 am

People in Lagos (and Mexico City) make adjustments all the time. There is no one, linear way to make a living in both of those places.

One has to make a living on one's own in some fashion, since there's a small amount of social services in Nigeria and Mexico (especially Nigeria). Their families do take care of people who are "down on their luck"---but the stigma to that is great, so that people have little option but to make their way somehow.

One cannot just "give up" in those countries.



browneyedgirlslowingdown
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09 Jun 2021, 11:01 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
People in Lagos (and Mexico City) make adjustments all the time. There is no one, linear way to make a living in both of those places.

One has to make a living on one's own in some fashion, since there's a small amount of social services in Nigeria and Mexico (especially Nigeria). Their families do take care of people who are "down on their luck"---but the stigma to that is great, so that people have little option but to make their way somehow.

One cannot just "give up" in those countries.


Are you referring to personal responsibility in terms of self-sufficiency specifically? I thought we were talking about choice? My post is specifically about choices, all kinds not solely self-sufficiency.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 11:10 am

I'm speaking of "choice" as well as "self-sufficiency."

Example: Many Nigerians (and other Africans) who are university-educated happen to be cab drivers in the United States. I doubt very much they grew up with an aching desire to be a cab driver.

This also happens even among Americans born and raised here. One might hold a PhD, yet are forced to work in Walmart because of economic necessity.



browneyedgirlslowingdown
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09 Jun 2021, 11:16 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I'm speaking of "choice" as well as "self-sufficiency."

Example: Many Nigerians (and other Africans) who are university-educated happen to be cab drivers in the United States. I doubt very much they grew up with an aching desire to be a cab driver.

This also happens even among Americans born and raised here. One might hold a PhD, yet are forced to work in Walmart because of economic necessity.


Ok, and still choices and the outcomes are still an individual's personal responsibility in my view. There is no perfect choice there are losses and gains associated with every single one. Being a doctor in Nigeria or a cab driver in the states may seem like very different things one being good and one being bad, but there are positives and negatives to both choices. Personal responsibility would be the ability to weigh this reality and live with the outcomes to me. It is deeply personal, and not up to anyone to decide which is the better choice if anything you can choose to lay out the pros and cons to support the person, but they have to know what reality they are most capable of responding in a responsible manner to.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 11:22 am

I don't disagree at all with you. I believe "weighing the pros and cons" are very important.

But I also believe that there are times when "weighing the pro and cons" are a luxury to somebody who must work in retail in order to have a roof over his/her head.

I'm just a clerk. I had no ambition as a younger person. I just wanted to get away from my mother, and have my own place. Even though I got a BA in speech pathology and English, maintained a 3.8 GPA, and won a couple of awards, I still have that "lack of ambition." I'm still a clerk after 40 1/2 years working as a civil servant. I am lucky, actually, that I was able to "weigh the pros and cons."



browneyedgirlslowingdown
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09 Jun 2021, 11:33 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't disagree at all with you. I believe "weighing the pros and cons" are very important.

But I also believe that there are times when "weighing the pro and cons" are a luxury to somebody who must work in retail in order to have a roof over his/her head.

I'm just a clerk. I had no ambition as a younger person. I just wanted to get away from my mother, and have my own place. Even though I got a BA in speech pathology and English, maintained a 3.8 GPA, and won a couple of awards, I still have that "lack of ambition." I'm still a clerk after 40 1/2 years working as a civil servant. I am lucky, actually, that I was able to "weigh the pros and cons."


I think personal responsibility would escape someone who could not weigh the pros and cons, and that is my whole argument. If you can't make choices or do not perceive choice in your circumstances then you can not be personally responsible for outcomes and are more likely to blame society or someone else for your situation completely (victim mentality or entitlement mentality). At the most basic level, you have choices. Your thoughts moment to moment elicit choice. Outside of a child or someone without cognition, this is reality. I view entitlement identity and victimhood identities as luxuries I cannot afford.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 11:36 am

I view “entitlement” and a “victim” mentality” in precisely the same light as you do.



browneyedgirlslowingdown
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09 Jun 2021, 11:39 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I view “entitlement” and a “victim” mentality” in precisely the same light as you do.


sweet! a rare occurrence indeed :-)


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aghogday
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09 Jun 2021, 2:38 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Hey, can someone weigh in and give their thoughts please? Kraftie? Aghogday, others? Cornflake, may I have your thoughts?

Am I really right in what I'm saying? I think so. The stats from the bureau of labor of statistics seems to support what I say for disabled people. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/disabl.pdf

Is AngelRho right or biased himself?

How do we tell either way what is exactly what?

Anyone besides AngelRho, am I wrong in anyway? Am I truthfully biased? Is AngelRho right or biased in some way as well? I think he is biased in a number of things. But, maybe I am as well.

If I am, please show me and give your thoughts?




People Measure Success Differently; Not Unlike Kraftie,
i Had None off 'This World's Capitalistic Ambitions'; Just

Enough Subsistence to Survive And Love Enough For me;

i Was Raised Outside of the World of Capitalism And Inside
The World of Love; In Fact, i Would STILL Be Happy Serving

Out Shoes After Graduating With 3 College Degrees At A Bowling

Center As Every Human SMiLE i Meet And Greet With Cheers Is A Brand

New UniVerse in Connection to Move And Co-Create With As Well; Not Everyone

Is About Human; Some Folks Are More About Things; And That Is Part of Human Nature

too; i Wasn't Diagnosed With Autism, Until i Was Assigned A Zillion And One Things to
Do At Work, Doing Mechanical Cognition And Social Cognition With Wide-Open-Door-Policy

For Both; Took till age 47, and i Was So Far Down; No Way i Was Gonna Get Diagnosed with

Bi-Polar Until 53, When i Finally Came Out of that Hole Then of Pain and Numb of Depression
And Anxiety And About 19 Overall Stress Associated And Exacerbated Disorders Where my

Natural State of Being Is Deliriously Happy Since Birth; Just Natural Hypomania That i Have
The Ability to Control As Long As i Do Not Have Much Stress; Yeah, i Could Have Served

Out Rental Shoes And Smiles All My Life; Fortunately, i Am Back to Doing That in Terms

of Dance And Song, Instead of Rental Shoes in Return For Cheers of Joy; Hehe not

Everywhere; Yet

i've Learned

to Undertand

How DarK Makes

LiGHT; Yes True everyone

Has Different Views of THeiR

UniVerse; Everyone is Born with

Different Potentials in Different Environments

That May Enhance Potential or Detract From it too;

Again, Just Because One Person Can And Will Do It;

Does't Mean it's Truly Not Impossible For Someone Else to Do it;

If i Had to Sweep Carpet For A Living With A Broom; i'd Go Stark

Raving Nuts too; As Not Only The Touch of the Man Made Carpet Drives

me Nuts; Even The Sound of a Broom Brushing Across the Carpet; Can't Hardly

Stand to Touch Almost Any Human Made Material; Super Sensitive Tactile Sensitivity

Is A Thing; And So Is Super Empathic too; Working With Happy Folks Fine; Not So Much

When Ya Can And Will Feel All Their Hell too; My Point is, We All have A Narrow View of

What Comprises
Heaven or Hell

For Another

Person; Never

Assume What We Can or Cannot

Do Is What The Other Person Can or Cannot Do;

Once Again Cheers; Trying to Walk Even A Step in 'Their' Footprints;

Let's Face It; This is A Site for Autism; Some of Us Are Super Sensitive

To the Point We Almost Practically LiVE iN The Skin of Others; And Others

Are Like 'Foreigner' Says; Just as 'Cold As Ice'; It's A Spectrum; It's Definitely A Spectrum;

Seen Both

Sides

Of

Cheers

And Grey Scale

to BLacK Abyss Life;

i Sure Ain't Complaining;

And i Sure Ain't Hating Up on

Any Person Less privileged Collecting

All the Goods of 'The World'; Just Without Much 'Billy Joel' Soul....

Anyway, Cheers; Have A Nice Day; Life is So Much Better When Money And Stuff Ain't Part oF it TO DO...
to

Me At Least..:)



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cubedemon6073
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09 Jun 2021, 7:50 pm

browneyedgirlslowingdown wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't disagree at all with you. I believe "weighing the pros and cons" are very important.

But I also believe that there are times when "weighing the pro and cons" are a luxury to somebody who must work in retail in order to have a roof over his/her head.

I'm just a clerk. I had no ambition as a younger person. I just wanted to get away from my mother, and have my own place. Even though I got a BA in speech pathology and English, maintained a 3.8 GPA, and won a couple of awards, I still have that "lack of ambition." I'm still a clerk after 40 1/2 years working as a civil servant. I am lucky, actually, that I was able to "weigh the pros and cons."


I think personal responsibility would escape someone who could not weigh the pros and cons, and that is my whole argument. If you can't make choices or do not perceive choice in your circumstances then you can not be personally responsible for outcomes and are more likely to blame society or someone else for your situation completely (victim mentality or entitlement mentality). At the most basic level, you have choices. Your thoughts moment to moment elicit choice. Outside of a child or someone without cognition, this is reality. I view entitlement identity and victimhood identities as luxuries I cannot afford.


Here is my question though.

Why is a person not allowed to blame society for one's circumstances no matter the situation?

To not be allowed to blame society puts society as a whole on this pedestal of perfection. In other words, the society, the values, beliefs, its tenets and how it regards people can never have the possibility of ever being wrong and/or open to question. Therein lies another issue I have with personal responsibility. It is always that person's fault due to the choices he/she made and society can never be wrong. That to me is cult-like thinking.

To me, American society behaves almost like a cult. You question it and you question things like personal responsibility and you're considered entitled, unamerican, communist, etc.

As for the entitlement mentality, I believe I am owed truth in advertising as in if I'm paying for a product or service I should be able to know exactly what I am receiving and what this product and service will do for me the money I will pay. And, that is why I think a number of college students in the states should receive forgiveness for their loans they were encouraged by supposed experts to take out. And, because the lending companies like Sally Mae have questionable practices. I think we're entitled to know exactly what college does and what it doesn't do. A number of students were led to believe that a college degree led to a job. In a way, they graduated to it.

And, those who really don't understand the professions out there other than their own should not be providing career advice. In other words, teachers should only provide career advice for those who wish to be teachers. That's it. Nothing more! The school system needs to stay within its scope which is educating students. That's it! Nothing more!



kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 10:17 pm

There are times when the ethos of the general society can stymie people.

I’m not saying that a person’s lot in life is totally their own fault. Because it frequently isn’t. It’s more complex than that.

All I’m saying is that people should never give up aspiring to better things.

I am one who might be satisfied with “too little.” I never got promoted on my job; yet I don’t feel all that bad about that. Even though I got a bachelors degree while working.

Spending one’s life “playing the victim” relegates a person to perpetual victimhood.



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09 Jun 2021, 10:24 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
How about Christina Sandefur? Lawyer. Fought for terminally ill patients’ rights by helping write Right To Try. Also fights for private property rights in Arizona. Basically, she’s a TRUE Robin Hood: Not one who steals from the rich and gives to the needy, but rather recovers what the government steals and returns it to the citizens. I wonder if she needs to ask permission before doing the right thing? #personalresponsibility


#hastygeneralization

If you actually knew what a hasty generalization is, you’d know I’m not making one.

The problem for you is every example challenges your narrative. I can keep going. You cannot rationally defend your point.


And, guess what the Bureau of Labor Statistics challenges your points. And, yes I know exactly what a hasty generalization is.

Find me stats in which the vast majority of people were able to pull themselves from their own bootstraps.

Find me stats in which the vast majority of people with disabilities were able to pull themselves from their own bootstraps.

All you're giving me is testimonials and selected samples. You can name 5000 people who were able to pull themselves from their own bootstraps. If you have 100,000 who could not then that would be a drop in the bucket.

Same thing with disabilities. For every Temple Grandin who succeeded how many autistics ended up claiming SSDI, live with their parents, end up in group homes or commit suicide.

You're giving examples of those who did succeed but that's meaningless without comparing it against those who sunk and could not succeed.

You believe I don't know the meaning of what a hasty generalization is. Okay, then define it then. You say I'm using it wrong. How? How am I using it wrong? What is the right way that it is supposed to be used and why is that the right way and why are other ways wrong? That's the thing! All you've have said in the pages of conversations is that I'm wrong and this is what is. No explanation. No explaining on how you even get there. Whether it is with God, personal responsibility or anything we've discussed or disputed.

You're drawing your conclusions based upon small and incomplete sample sizes. That's a hasty generalization.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/log ... ralization

And, if you're kicking my ass at this. If you are so sure you're right on this. Why continue? Why continue to have any conversation with me? What exactly is your stake in this exactly? Why do you care what I say on here. You could easily drop out of the conversation which you said you would do many times? My friend, you're not beating me at anything. All you're doing is the erosion effect with the I'm right and you're wrong.

You've proven nothing good sir. All you've done is said a lot of sophisticated verbiage for the entire 37 or so pages of this entire conversation but it has little to no substance to it.

I ask how water is wet and how it gets to be wet. How does it get to be that way? You would say that water simply has that nature. It simply is wet.

Or, how do plants grow? Brawndo has electrolytes that makes plants grow? But, how does Brawndo make plants grow? Well, plants have electrolytes? But what are electrolytes?

This is you AngelRho even though your words are more sophisticated.

AngelRho, you refuse to see that your points, arguments and belief system could possibly have holes and flaws to them just like other personal responsibility advocates I've dealt with. You are completely and utterly locked into this whole American mythos that anyone can do anything and anyone can pull themselves by their bootstraps which is not true. Yes, you have people who do but how many do not and cannot?

The bureau of labor statistics I posted twice is staring at you in the face. Get your head out of your ass!

What makes you think that the vast majority of poor people are able to pull themselves by their boot straps? Same question with disabled people?

This is all mostly irrelevant.

My point in bringing up faith was to demonstrate how our beliefs are all built on our axioms and presuppositions. You are committed to a victim mentality; I am not. You made the assertion that “Personal responsibility is a crock” and supported that statement with quasi facts about victims and personal grievance groups. The problem there is that if your standard for defending your position is “personal responsibility is a crock because victims,” which you support with flimsy, politically motivated, government statistics that you assume are reliable, then there’s little or no reason for someone like me to expend effort in defeating your argument. You do a good enough job of that on your own. Instead, it’s more fun for me to dismiss your assertion on purely logical grounds. If personal responsibility is a crock because victims, then all it takes to defeat this argument is ONE example of a person who owns up to personal responsibility. Doesn’t even have to be a success story. Could be failures: the Chosin disaster, the NAZI last stand at Stalingrad, Masada, the CSA, Mike Sherman’s coaching career (haha). Could be Brian Piccolo or Temple Grandin.

Denial of personal responsibility is often disastrous. Pharm regulations force pharms to depend on government grace before they are allowed to release life-saving medicine. Once government got out of the way, a completely new kind of vaccine was rapidly developed, and now it appears for the time being that America’s Biden Flu fever might almost be broken if not already. The opposite would be the NAZI command structure, which was consistent with party ideology—the German people were victims of Jews, Hitler was a victim of traitors and power struggles, and so forth.

You know who DIDN’T toe the NAZI party line on the battlefield? Erwin Rommel. Rommel was an unstoppable force in North Africa. His policy towards enemy POWs was always to be a gentleman and grant captives dignity, earning the awe and respect of the enemy. He did this out of his own initiative, not by waiting for the blessings of high command.

Rommel was what I consider a true victim. He was recalled to Berlin, asked to defend the German homeland, was swiftly ignored, and then for all the good he did HE was put on notice as a traitor. What was left of Germany was worse off for it. Yet in the face of an absurd government gone insane, Rommel maintained his own integrity all the way to his death. #personalresponsibility



browneyedgirlslowingdown
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09 Jun 2021, 11:11 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
browneyedgirlslowingdown wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't disagree at all with you. I believe "weighing the pros and cons" are very important.

But I also believe that there are times when "weighing the pro and cons" are a luxury to somebody who must work in retail in order to have a roof over his/her head.

I'm just a clerk. I had no ambition as a younger person. I just wanted to get away from my mother, and have my own place. Even though I got a BA in speech pathology and English, maintained a 3.8 GPA, and won a couple of awards, I still have that "lack of ambition." I'm still a clerk after 40 1/2 years working as a civil servant. I am lucky, actually, that I was able to "weigh the pros and cons."


I think personal responsibility would escape someone who could not weigh the pros and cons, and that is my whole argument. If you can't make choices or do not perceive choice in your circumstances then you can not be personally responsible for outcomes and are more likely to blame society or someone else for your situation completely (victim mentality or entitlement mentality). At the most basic level, you have choices. Your thoughts moment to moment elicit choice. Outside of a child or someone without cognition, this is reality. I view entitlement identity and victimhood identities as luxuries I cannot afford.


Here is my question though.

Why is a person not allowed to blame society for one's circumstances no matter the situation?

To not be allowed to blame society puts society as a whole on this pedestal of perfection. In other words, the society, the values, beliefs, its tenets and how it regards people can never have the possibility of ever being wrong and/or open to question. Therein lies another issue I have with personal responsibility. It is always that person's fault due to the choices he/she made and society can never be wrong. That to me is cult-like thinking.

To me, American society behaves almost like a cult. You question it and you question things like personal responsibility and you're considered entitled, unamerican, communist, etc.

As for the entitlement mentality, I believe I am owed truth in advertising as in if I'm paying for a product or service I should be able to know exactly what I am receiving and what this product and service will do for me the money I will pay. And, that is why I think a number of college students in the states should receive forgiveness for their loans they were encouraged by supposed experts to take out. And, because the lending companies like Sally Mae have questionable practices. I think we're entitled to know exactly what college does and what it doesn't do. A number of students were led to believe that a college degree led to a job. In a way, they graduated to it.

And, those who really don't understand the professions out there other than their own should not be providing career advice. In other words, teachers should only provide career advice for those who wish to be teachers. That's it. Nothing more! The school system needs to stay within its scope which is educating students. That's it! Nothing more!



I think maybe I wasn't clear enough, of course, society is at fault for the way the very choices you are forced to make are shaped, but they are still your choices. At any point, you can choose to do nothing and blame society and everyone else for your problems entirely. This to me is not personal responsibility, personal responsibility would be accepting that life is unfair, that society shapes all things and that you are forced to choose between things that are not equal that have strengths and weaknesses and pros and cons. This is the nature of existence in my view. I think it's irresponsible to think that you can only have good outcomes or bad outcomes, everyone has both some more or less because life isn't fair.


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Your broader autism cluster (Aspie) score: 153 of 200
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Systemising Quotient (SQ) 78
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CAT-Q 156 Compensation 56 Masking 48 Assimilation 52


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09 Jun 2021, 11:28 pm

all my life i have been calumnied by bullies who told me that i was morally defective because i didn't "jerk myself up by my own bootstraps" - they always spouted "personal responsibility" even as god granted them superior genes and let them be born on third bass and thinking they hit a triple.