How can we convince the govnerment they cannot beat covid?

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ASPartOfMe
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29 Mar 2021, 7:24 pm

Right now it seems enough people will take the vaccine to create herd immunity. That the fears of widespread resistance to vaccination seem unfounded. The demand still outstrips the supply. The media is full of stories of people complaining they can't get it, celebrating when they get it. Blood clot scares, bad side effect stories, nothing is stopping the demand.

We won't really know how much true anti vaxx feeling is out there until.
1. Everybody that should be eligible is eligible.
2. There is enough supply to distribute to all who can safely take it.
3. The vaccine is convenient to get

If that vaccine rollout hits a wall before herd immunity then the type of decisions ironpony is discussing will have to be made. Give up and open up and accept the high number of deaths and long term/permanent disability or have chronic restrictions and lockdowns and the associated economic damage and mental illnesses. Or as would probably happen some sort of compromise resulting in the worst of both worlds.

I would hope the anti-vaxxers do not put us in a position where those types of decisions has to be made.


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Mr Reynholm
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30 Mar 2021, 8:43 am

Covid 19 is the pretext needed by governments to seize power and control over our daily lives and ability to work.



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30 Mar 2021, 8:45 am

Mr Reynholm wrote:
Covid 19 is the pretext needed by governments to seize power and control over our daily lives and ability to work.
I see the sky is still falling where you live.


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MidnightRose
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30 Mar 2021, 6:55 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
Covid 19 is the pretext needed by governments to seize power and control over our daily lives and ability to work.


The government has always been allowed to institute emergency measures to counteract epidemics. Back in the 18th and 19th century local governors could issue quarantine orders. People who fought in the Continental Army against the British, the original patriots, did not see this as a violation of their rights. But nowadays people are suddenly complaining that it is unconstitutional, or tyrannical, or whatever.



kokopelli
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30 Mar 2021, 8:45 pm

uncommondenominator wrote:
Raise your hand if you have polio. One of many things we've "beat", and don't "all have".


As an aside, not only does covid have a higher mortality than polio, the rate of complications from covid is much higher than the rate of complications from polio.



kokopelli
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30 Mar 2021, 8:52 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Right now it seems enough people will take the vaccine to create herd immunity. That the fears of widespread resistance to vaccination seem unfounded. The demand still outstrips the supply. The media is full of stories of people complaining they can't get it, celebrating when they get it. Blood clot scares, bad side effect stories, nothing is stopping the demand.

We won't really know how much true anti vaxx feeling is out there until.
1. Everybody that should be eligible is eligible.
2. There is enough supply to distribute to all who can safely take it.
3. The vaccine is convenient to get

If that vaccine rollout hits a wall before herd immunity then the type of decisions ironpony is discussing will have to be made. Give up and open up and accept the high number of deaths and long term/permanent disability or have chronic restrictions and lockdowns and the associated economic damage and mental illnesses. Or as would probably happen some sort of compromise resulting in the worst of both worlds.

I would hope the anti-vaxxers do not put us in a position where those types of decisions has to be made.


Can you name any human disease that has ever been brought into control by "herd immunity"? Hint: vaccines may bring a disease under control, but there is no such thing as herd immunity when applied to humans.

The term herd immunity arises from farms and ranches in which you have a herd of cattle, horses, or other animals that are kept together and apart from other herds with no intermixing other than introducing new animals from time to time or taking animals out for slaughter or other purposes.

Herd immunity in humans would pretty much require humanity to be spit into small groups that are kept isolated from other small groups for life.



uncommondenominator
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31 Mar 2021, 2:44 pm

kokopelli wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Right now it seems enough people will take the vaccine to create herd immunity. That the fears of widespread resistance to vaccination seem unfounded. The demand still outstrips the supply. The media is full of stories of people complaining they can't get it, celebrating when they get it. Blood clot scares, bad side effect stories, nothing is stopping the demand.

We won't really know how much true anti vaxx feeling is out there until.
1. Everybody that should be eligible is eligible.
2. There is enough supply to distribute to all who can safely take it.
3. The vaccine is convenient to get

If that vaccine rollout hits a wall before herd immunity then the type of decisions ironpony is discussing will have to be made. Give up and open up and accept the high number of deaths and long term/permanent disability or have chronic restrictions and lockdowns and the associated economic damage and mental illnesses. Or as would probably happen some sort of compromise resulting in the worst of both worlds.

I would hope the anti-vaxxers do not put us in a position where those types of decisions has to be made.


Can you name any human disease that has ever been brought into control by "herd immunity"? Hint: vaccines may bring a disease under control, but there is no such thing as herd immunity when applied to humans.

The term herd immunity arises from farms and ranches in which you have a herd of cattle, horses, or other animals that are kept together and apart from other herds with no intermixing other than introducing new animals from time to time or taking animals out for slaughter or other purposes.

Herd immunity in humans would pretty much require humanity to be spit into small groups that are kept isolated from other small groups for life.


Literally all diseases have been brought under control using herd immunity. We use vaccines to generate the same type of airgap as isolation. Rather than the virus having nowhere to go because of physical or spatial barriers, it hits a biological barrier of individuals who cannot spread it, or who cannot spread it far enough fast enough for it to go very far. That's literally the whole point of get vaccinated, wear a mask, stay at home. PREVENTION, ISOLATION, AND MINIMIZATION OF TRANSMISSIONS.

Y'all need to step up your science game.



ironpony
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31 Mar 2021, 11:20 pm

Well it seems that according to some news outlets that a lot of foreigners are being allowed into the US without being tested, so if that's true, maybe the government is starting to give up on covid already maybe?



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31 Mar 2021, 11:25 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well it seems that according to some news outlets that a lot of foreigners are being allowed into the US without being tested, so if that's true, maybe the government is starting to give up on covid already maybe?


Got linx? :mrgreen:


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kokopelli
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01 Apr 2021, 1:21 am

uncommondenominator wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Right now it seems enough people will take the vaccine to create herd immunity. That the fears of widespread resistance to vaccination seem unfounded. The demand still outstrips the supply. The media is full of stories of people complaining they can't get it, celebrating when they get it. Blood clot scares, bad side effect stories, nothing is stopping the demand.

We won't really know how much true anti vaxx feeling is out there until.
1. Everybody that should be eligible is eligible.
2. There is enough supply to distribute to all who can safely take it.
3. The vaccine is convenient to get

If that vaccine rollout hits a wall before herd immunity then the type of decisions ironpony is discussing will have to be made. Give up and open up and accept the high number of deaths and long term/permanent disability or have chronic restrictions and lockdowns and the associated economic damage and mental illnesses. Or as would probably happen some sort of compromise resulting in the worst of both worlds.

I would hope the anti-vaxxers do not put us in a position where those types of decisions has to be made.


Can you name any human disease that has ever been brought into control by "herd immunity"? Hint: vaccines may bring a disease under control, but there is no such thing as herd immunity when applied to humans.

The term herd immunity arises from farms and ranches in which you have a herd of cattle, horses, or other animals that are kept together and apart from other herds with no intermixing other than introducing new animals from time to time or taking animals out for slaughter or other purposes.

Herd immunity in humans would pretty much require humanity to be spit into small groups that are kept isolated from other small groups for life.


Literally all diseases have been brought under control using herd immunity. We use vaccines to generate the same type of airgap as isolation. Rather than the virus having nowhere to go because of physical or spatial barriers, it hits a biological barrier of individuals who cannot spread it, or who cannot spread it far enough fast enough for it to go very far. That's literally the whole point of get vaccinated, wear a mask, stay at home. PREVENTION, ISOLATION, AND MINIMIZATION OF TRANSMISSIONS.

Y'all need to step up your science game.


That is quite funny.

The reality is that vaccines slow down the spread of the disease by quite a bit, but it isn't herd immunity.

And all diseases? That's the funniest part yet.

There are a number of diseases that hardly anyone has immunity for. Rabies is a classic example. A few people do get some immunity from vaccines but even that immunity is far from total. Even if you got vaccinated for rabies two months ago, if you face a probably exposure today, you get vaccinated all over again. The number of people who gain some immunity to rabies from surviving rabies is very small.

Other obvious diseases include anthrax, tularemia, bubonic plague, and hantavirus. Where I live, these are all occasional concerns.

Even with widespread vaccinations for things like measles, that did not stop US outbreaks of measles in 2020.



uncommondenominator
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01 Apr 2021, 6:02 am

kokopelli wrote:
uncommondenominator wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Right now it seems enough people will take the vaccine to create herd immunity. That the fears of widespread resistance to vaccination seem unfounded. The demand still outstrips the supply. The media is full of stories of people complaining they can't get it, celebrating when they get it. Blood clot scares, bad side effect stories, nothing is stopping the demand.

We won't really know how much true anti vaxx feeling is out there until.
1. Everybody that should be eligible is eligible.
2. There is enough supply to distribute to all who can safely take it.
3. The vaccine is convenient to get

If that vaccine rollout hits a wall before herd immunity then the type of decisions ironpony is discussing will have to be made. Give up and open up and accept the high number of deaths and long term/permanent disability or have chronic restrictions and lockdowns and the associated economic damage and mental illnesses. Or as would probably happen some sort of compromise resulting in the worst of both worlds.

I would hope the anti-vaxxers do not put us in a position where those types of decisions has to be made.


Can you name any human disease that has ever been brought into control by "herd immunity"? Hint: vaccines may bring a disease under control, but there is no such thing as herd immunity when applied to humans.

The term herd immunity arises from farms and ranches in which you have a herd of cattle, horses, or other animals that are kept together and apart from other herds with no intermixing other than introducing new animals from time to time or taking animals out for slaughter or other purposes.

Herd immunity in humans would pretty much require humanity to be spit into small groups that are kept isolated from other small groups for life.


Literally all diseases have been brought under control using herd immunity. We use vaccines to generate the same type of airgap as isolation. Rather than the virus having nowhere to go because of physical or spatial barriers, it hits a biological barrier of individuals who cannot spread it, or who cannot spread it far enough fast enough for it to go very far. That's literally the whole point of get vaccinated, wear a mask, stay at home. PREVENTION, ISOLATION, AND MINIMIZATION OF TRANSMISSIONS.

Y'all need to step up your science game.


That is quite funny.

The reality is that vaccines slow down the spread of the disease by quite a bit, but it isn't herd immunity.

And all diseases? That's the funniest part yet.

There are a number of diseases that hardly anyone has immunity for. Rabies is a classic example. A few people do get some immunity from vaccines but even that immunity is far from total. Even if you got vaccinated for rabies two months ago, if you face a probably exposure today, you get vaccinated all over again. The number of people who gain some immunity to rabies from surviving rabies is very small.

Other obvious diseases include anthrax, tularemia, bubonic plague, and hantavirus. Where I live, these are all occasional concerns.

Even with widespread vaccinations for things like measles, that did not stop US outbreaks of measles in 2020.


Literally all diseases that have been brought under control have been done so using vaccines and herd immunity. I felt that the "have been brought under control" part was implied, since if it hasn't been brought under control, we couldn't point to a reason it was brought under control. I guess I expected too much in the reasoning department. I didn't think any rational person would think that I was implying that no diseases exist anymore.

For one thing, there's different magnitudes of "control". There's "people hardly get it, and when they do it's manageable", there's "nobody HERE gets it, but people elsewhere still get it", and then there's "nobody anywhere gets it, it's totally eradicated".

Not everyone can get vaccinated for every ailment. But if enough people get a vaccine, the disease can't spread. We can calculate that tipping point. The very idea that if most people are protected, then everyone is protected to a degree, IS HERD IMMUNITY. COLLECTIVELY, there's enough immunity that the disease can't take hold fast enough to spread, and instead dies off. In that way it can even protect the few who can't get vaccinated or otherwise treated.

As for the measles outbreak in 2020, that happened cos anti-vax morons stopped getting their kids vaccinated, partly thanks to vaccines-cause-autism nonsense, so we went below the HERD IMMUNITY tipping point that was keeping it controlled. Measles WAS in that second category of diseases that were largely gone in some places, but still around in others. Kids weren't vaccinated, and then went with parents on vacation to a place where measles was still common, and brought it back, cos they weren't vaccinated, and then it spread really fast, cos a bunch of thoer kids weren't vaccinated either. If they HAD been vaccinated, even if not ALL of them, the overall HERD IMMUNITY would have prevented it from becoming such a severe outbreak, if not prevented it from being brought home to begin with.

Things like the flu mutate rapidly, so making a hard and fast vaccine is difficult. But that's why we're given flu shots every year, based on the types of flu that seem to be spreading around. Why do you think ppl get those shots? The more ppl are immunized, to whatever degree, the less the disease can spread. THAT'S HERD IMMUNITY. Enough people are protected that those who can't be directly protected are still indirectly protected by the immunity of those around them.

You're being clever, but you're not being very smart. Y'all really do need to step up your science game.



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01 Apr 2021, 12:16 pm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

This post is stupid.

New Zealand managed to do it.

Mitigation efforts we've made here in Canada, especially in certain regions where people followed simple instructions Very Well, have been very effective. That's why we don't have people dropping like flies in the Maritimes or BC like they are in hot spots of Quebec and Ontario, or like they are across many parts of the USA.

Wtf, ironpony?

Vaccination programs are rolling out. Science is real. Herd immunity via vaccines works. Stay the course & do your part and we'll get through this with minimal casualties.

So bizarre to me that after a year, with an end in sight due to vaccines happening, that you'd say "Nah, F it, you know what? Just let my parents and grandparents and anyone who's immunocompromised just die already so I can get on with going to the pub or whatever.." :roll: :roll: :doh:


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02 Apr 2021, 12:51 am

Oh I guess since where I live is going into further lockdown, I just thought things were getting worse, and was at the point where I didn't have much hope for a vaccine working.



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02 Apr 2021, 2:35 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh I guess since where I live is going into further lockdown, I just thought things were getting worse, and was at the point where I didn't have much hope for a vaccine working.


We just had new lockdown measures imposed here in BC, too. Gatherings have been banned since ~November. Now restaurants/bars etc are all closed for indoor dining again. Take out only.

But so what? That's to keep the numbers low. They were spiking up a bit and the variants that are spreading are more contagious than the OG virus. All of these efforts are to ensure Covid cases remain minimal while people get vaccinated - it's all to buy time. Well, and save lives.

I'm not finding it difficult to do my part at all. I'm less social than normal, but whatever, I go to work, wear a mask, go home. Wash my hands. Don't to to gatherings/parties/restaurants or even shopping unnecessarily. I have gone to the beach a handful of times, but usually at night when there are very few people there at all - outdoors in the breeze. Rinse and repeat until all of this stuff is over. It's all really very simple.. don't go hangout with people indoors, wear a mask when you do have to go somewhere like work or shopping, don't touch your face, wash your hands.. and be patient - they can only get so many doses of vaccines and inject them into people so fast. It's happening, though. People should all be vaccinated this year. Tough it out, we're in the homestretch now.


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30 Apr 2021, 9:47 am

Well apparently now there is a new strain of covid that the new vaccine will not work now against the new strain. Is this true? If it is, do people still actually believe we can beat covid, instead of just accepting it. We produce a max vaccine and covid manages to one up us in no time. Do people still think they have a chance, rather than accepting it as normal, like the flu?