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tensordyne
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18 Jun 2021, 5:53 pm

Whoa, I can tell at least one person has been listening to Keto-propaganda. Let's go down the list. :roll:

badRobot wrote:
No, human becomes obese as a result of fat utilization being suppressed by high insulin levels. Meat doesn't do that. Carbs do.


Oh god, small g. Where to begin mansplaining to you that the above is a bunch of nonsense?

Let's start with macronutrients. There are three kinds: carbs, fat and protein. Your brain and muscles preferentially burn carbohydrates, not fat, not protein. Carbohydrates are molecules with the chemical formula in LaTeX of $(CH_20)_n$, aka, 1 or more copies of a Carbon and a Water. Proteins and fats have a more complex set of definitions.

Meat has many components. Meat has some carbs, and lots of fat and protein, as well as endotoxins, heme-iron, etc. The fat in the meat you eat after digestion enters into the bloodstream. Already at this point excess fat intake is an issue, as you only want to digest Omega 3 / 6 fatty acids in proper ratios, which meat does not have. Meat fat also has trans-fats, which is an issue, but the real fun starts when it circulates around in the blood-stream. The list of problems with meat consumption by humans is quite large, as I could go on for pages, let us get back to the fat.

One thing these circulating fats do is cause scaring (kind of like pimples) of the endothelial wall of the circulatory system, which is the basis of heart disease through subsequent plaque creation. When the fat gets to cells, there is a mechanism by which the fat enters past the cell wall. This is a lock and key mechanism that requires insulin.

The more fat you have consumed over time, the more insulin you need. This is a problem for multiple reasons. First, you are now overstressing the pancreas as producer of insulin. Second, the more fat you store away in cells the harder it is to store more fat, which takes more insulin, which makes it... who's on First?

Now your cells have so much fat in them that another problem presents itself, they leak fat. Your cells are also tired of all the fat, thank you very much, and so they become insulin resistant, which does not help. In the final stages of the disease progression the very cells that produce insulin, the pancreatic Islets, or islets of Langerhans cells, get more or less invaded by fat. The damage to these cells then kills off function in the one organ that could be used to restore normal function.

The Standard American Diet is high in processed carbs, fats, salt, and protein and is deficient in fiber, phytonutrients, and much else. To say that fat is good for you is a retarding statement that leads people astray and allows them to listen to quackish charlatans.

Diabetes is a disease of fat toxicity. I am sure you will not believe me due to previously held beliefs, but there it is.


Quote:
obesity epidemic is mostly result of consumption of processed grains.


Already covered.

badRobot wrote:
Pretty much every nutrient from the list of known essential nutrients?


There is not one compound specificied in the sentence above. I understand if you do not want to engage in an obvious trap, but my dear person badRobot, the above is not a valid form of argumentation. I will not engage with those who play pigeon chess.

Quote:
catastrophic environmental degradation is result of industrial agriculture, deforestation and destruction of ecological systems by monocrops are a huge part of the problem.


Animal agriculture is the unnecessary cause of most of the industrial agricultural issues. Monocrops are not good, agreed, but the Amazon right now is being clear cut and razed for cattle.

Quote:
If you wanna fight animal suffering you should start with protesting against having pets and deforestation clearing space for soy beans used in vegan products and wiping out populations and species of wild animals.


Generally speaking, I am against pets. If you need to exploit another animal for survival, or want to take in a rescue animal, I have less scruples about it... I would not miss cats, but dogs are super fun.

Was this on Joe Rogan or something? I think I have finally figured out what the IDW is all about: right-wing atheist type thinkers. It is very odd. They are anti-trans to a person, although breaking things down better would be interesting. :nerdy:

OK, back to Rogan. Most soya beans (90%) are produced as animal feed. Humans in mass numbers will always have an impact on the environment, the real question is what kind of impact do we want to have. Feed meat addiction and leave other people to starve, or do we want to rearrange the system to be more sustainable and equitable for all? :D


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MrsPeel
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18 Jun 2021, 7:34 pm

badRobot wrote:
Quote:
Name a nutrient we get from animals that we can not get in a better form in plants?

Pretty much every nutrient from the list of known essential nutrients?


What about vitamin B12, tensordyne?
If humans were natural vegans why do we still need a source of B12 in our diet, since this is found in animal produce?
I've heard that vegans often need to take supplements for this.



xxZeromancerlovexx
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18 Jun 2021, 8:31 pm

MrsPeel wrote:
badRobot wrote:
Quote:
Name a nutrient we get from animals that we can not get in a better form in plants?

Pretty much every nutrient from the list of known essential nutrients?


What about vitamin B12, tensordyne?
If humans were natural vegans why do we still need a source of B12 in our diet, since this is found in animal produce?
I've heard that vegans often need to take supplements for this.


When I don’t eat meat I get very fatigued. Everyone’s body chemistry is different I guess.


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ArtsyFarsty
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18 Jun 2021, 9:30 pm

MrsPeel wrote:


If you look at traditional diets (pre-industrialisation), very few are truly vegan. Many are plant-based, but most will also include small amounts of meat, seafood, or dairy. For instance, many Indians are vegetarian but eat dairy. In Japan they eat seafood in addition to soybeans, and in China small amounts of pork. White rice is the go-to, not brown, whatever the nutritionists would have you believe. I strongly believe these traditional diets are the best for health.

The thing about traditional diets is that they were limited to what could be hunted, gathered, or farmed... and even that was periodically interrupted by famine and blight. Traditional diets did not have the dubious luxury of factory farming and large-scale food production. Which is why (I know I am an outlier among vegans) I have zero qualms with hunting and subsistence farming to meet one’s nutritional needs; it’s easy to over-consume animal products when we are so fat removed from the process that we no longer feel a connection to the food chain, or respect for the creatures that sacrifice their lives to provide food for us.



tensordyne
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18 Jun 2021, 10:31 pm

MrsPeel wrote:
What about vitamin B12, tensordyne?
If humans were natural vegans why do we still need a source of B12 in our diet, since this is found in animal produce?
I've heard that vegans often need to take supplements for this.


Happy to answer! It seems logical to conclude as you did, but with logic we must always be ready for confounding factors. B12 is in soil and used to be in everyone's drinking water because it is produced by microbes.

B12 is a compound called Cobalamin. Treated water does not contain B12 because it gets rid of the microbes that make it. Funny enough, in surveys they found everyone is B12 deficient, meat eaters included.

There were major scares in the 90's and 80's about B12 deficient Vegan children that still hound Vegans to this day. Short answer to your question, Vegans used to get it before we had modern artificial conditions. Now that we live in artificial conditions, artificial means of adaptation are required.

Now we don't get cholera, but due to that we have to take supplements.


xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:
When I don’t eat meat I get very fatigued. Everyone’s body chemistry is different I guess.


Next time, if you ever decide to go less meaty again, try taking a Carnitine supplement. A lifetime of eating heavy doses of meat has likely changed your gut lining and microbiome. You may need help to transition to a healthier diet. There are MD's who specialize in life-style medicine who can help.

If you are ever serious about trying again, I will Cheerlead you on like no one's business!

ArtsyFarsty wrote:
Which is why (I know I am an outlier among vegans) I have zero qualms with hunting and subsistence farming to meet one’s nutritional needs;


I grew up in Alaska. It is real hard for me in terms of family and so forth to be a Vegan, so I know what you are saying. It is almost like First Contact rules from Star Trek. I do not want to offend anyone with harsh truths about my further thoughts in that direction, so I will keep it at that.

.-------------------------------.
| Interesting comments! |
`-------------------------------'


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ArtsyFarsty
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18 Jun 2021, 10:56 pm

tensordyne wrote:

I grew up in Alaska. It is real hard for me in terms of family and so forth to be a Vegan, so I know what you are saying. It is almost like First Contact rules from Star Trek. I do not want to offend anyone with harsh truths about my further thoughts in that direction, so I will keep it at that.

.-------------------------------.
| Interesting comments! |
`-------------------------------'

Yes. I am originally from the wilds of northern New England, where hunting for survival is a way of life. That’s not the reality in my current (and hopefully temporary) location: The Bowels of Hell; replete with butcher shops and irritating accents.



tensordyne
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18 Jun 2021, 11:13 pm

Ughgh, correction: Prime Directive, not First Contact, although the two are related.

Quote:
Yes. I am originally from the wilds of northern New England, where hunting for survival is a way of life. That’s not the reality in my current (and hopefully temporary) location: The Bowels of Hell; replete with butcher shops and irritating accents.


Neat, my dad is from Maine. Always wanted to experience the Northeast of the US. Been lots of places, just not there very much. Where are these Bowels? You have my sympathies.

Can you believe Scottland is now a top Vegan tourist destination! Mad Cow changes things, I guess. Or if you look at the map of Berlin there are so many vegan restaurants that are all top-notch, want to go, sooooo bad.

Das vegane Menü, bitte.


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tensordyne
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19 Jun 2021, 12:05 am

Can I ask a question?

What does everyone think of Social Justice Critical Studies (aka, Woke) type stuff? I am watching and reading from all sides and collating the data for my own conclusions, but I would be really interested to hear the what's and why's of everyone thoughts on the matter (zero advocacy of anything from me because I just wanna know! promise, Socratic). Thanks :)

Identity seems to be involved with Diet, and a cluster of other topics in odd and seemingly inextricable ways. There is a low probability a conservative in the US will be Vegan, as just an example. The things that trigger people the most are those that have to do about their identity. :evil: :oops: :twisted:

Does Critical Race Theory actually say science is a white, male, hetero way of knowing, or is that BS invented by Racist anti-wokers? I want to be careful. If Science is Racist according to woke-ness, then I have zero chance of using it in arguments with various persons. Honestly, it also kind of triggers the living crap out of me and feels racist! I wish I knew for sure though 8O


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badRobot
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19 Jun 2021, 12:19 am

tensordyne wrote:
Whoa, I can tell at least one person has been listening to Keto-propaganda. Let's go down the list. :roll:

This is not keto-propaganda, this is basic human physiology.

tensordyne wrote:
Oh god, small g. Where to begin mansplaining to you that the above is a bunch of nonsense?

You don't have a grasp on this subject to engage in any explaining. Fat doesn't enter bloodstream, it is distributed through bloodstream as lipoproteins. Whether it's utilized for energy or stashed into body fat depends mostly on insulin level, which is much higher when carbs consumed.

Our brain and muscle don't utilize dietary carbs, they utilize glucose which can be synthesized from amino acids and fats.

Muscles don't prefer glucose, glucose makes up a tiny fraction of energy used by skeletal muscles, majority comes from fat and amino-acids.

Yes, fat is good for humans, that's why primary energy reserve of human body is body fat, not tiny glycogen stores.

tensordyne wrote:

Quote:
obesity epidemic is mostly result of consumption of processed grains.


Already covered.

No it's not. Learn some basics before you start preaching and teaching.

tensordyne wrote:
badRobot wrote:
Pretty much every nutrient from the list of known essential nutrients?


There is not one compound specificied in the sentence above. I understand if you do not want to engage in an obvious trap, but my dear person badRobot, the above is not a valid form of argumentation. I will not engage with those who play pigeon chess.

Open the list of known essential nutrients and table of bioavailability when consumed from different sources. Then compare nutrient densities. Pretty much every essential nutrient is easier absorbed from meat sources.

tensordyne wrote:
Quote:
catastrophic environmental degradation is result of industrial agriculture, deforestation and destruction of ecological systems by monocrops are a huge part of the problem.


Animal agriculture is the unnecessary cause of most of the industrial agricultural issues. Monocrops are not good, agreed, but the Amazon right now is being clear cut and razed for cattle.

This is socioeconomic problem, not dietary. If all people all over sudden switch from beef to soy proteins, it will not slowdown amazon deforestation, industrial agriculture will just destroy more forests for soy bean crops.

Quote:
Generally speaking, I am against pets. If you need to exploit another animal for survival, or want to take in a rescue animal, I have less scruples about it... I would not miss cats, but dogs are super fun.

You are still holding animal captive for your own pleasure and end it's life by putting it down. Fundamentally it's not different from raising cattle.



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19 Jun 2021, 10:44 am

tensordyne wrote:
What does everyone think of Social Justice Critical Studies (aka, Woke) type stuff? I am watching and reading from all sides and collating the data for my own conclusions, but I would be really interested to hear the what's and why's of everyone thoughts on the matter (zero advocacy of anything from me because I just wanna know! promise, Socratic). Thanks :)

Identity seems to be involved with Diet, and a cluster of other topics in odd and seemingly inextricable ways. There is a low probability a conservative in the US will be Vegan, as just an example. The things that trigger people the most are those that have to do about their identity. :evil: :oops: :twisted:

Does Critical Race Theory actually say science is a white, male, hetero way of knowing, or is that BS invented by Racist anti-wokers? I want to be careful. If Science is Racist according to woke-ness, then I have zero chance of using it in arguments with various persons. Honestly, it also kind of triggers the living crap out of me and feels racist! I wish I knew for sure though 8O

These questions are interesting, though perhaps far afield of the main topic here. Maybe post in General or in PPR?


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19 Jun 2021, 10:57 am

I tried veganism for a couple of years but I always felt I was lacking some micro-nutrients. While I still like some "fake meats" (Morning Star sausage patties are great) I now eat a low-fat meat diet. I also Consume 1% milk and 1% cottage cheese and other dairy products.



tensordyne
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19 Jun 2021, 11:20 am

badRobot wrote:
Fat doesn't enter bloodstream, it is distributed through bloodstream as lipoproteins. Whether it's utilized for energy or stashed into body fat depends mostly on insulin level, which is much higher when carbs consumed.


The lipo in lipoproteins means fat. Thanks for agreeing with me. I hope the idiotic nature of your assertions one day dawns on you, but I am not holding my breath.


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tensordyne
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19 Jun 2021, 11:22 am

Quote:
These questions are interesting, though perhaps far afield of the main topic here. Maybe post in General or in PPR?


Thanks, what is PPR?


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tensordyne
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19 Jun 2021, 11:26 am

Quote:
I tried veganism for a couple of years but I always felt I was lacking some micro-nutrients. While I still like some "fake meats" (Morning Star sausage patties are great) I now eat a low-fat meat diet. I also Consume 1% milk and 1% cottage cheese and other dairy products.


So odd. How does one have a low-fat meat diet when meat is full of fat? And, how did you come to your conclusion about lacking nutrients on a Vegan diet?


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BeaArthur
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19 Jun 2021, 11:32 am

tensordyne wrote:
Quote:
These questions are interesting, though perhaps far afield of the main topic here. Maybe post in General or in PPR?


Thanks, what is PPR?

Politics, Philosophy, and Religion. A subforum here.


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19 Jun 2021, 11:37 am

tensordyne wrote:
badRobot wrote:
Fat doesn't enter bloodstream, it is distributed through bloodstream as lipoproteins. Whether it's utilized for energy or stashed into body fat depends mostly on insulin level, which is much higher when carbs consumed.


The lipo in lipoproteins means fat. Thanks for agreeing with me. I hope the idiotic nature of your assertions one day dawns on you, but I am not holding my breath.


No, lipoprotein is not fat, it is a complex biochemical assembly. It's main purpose is to safely transport fats enclosed in outer shell through bloodstream. Lipoproteins exist to prevent horrors described in your "mansplaining".

Horrible process you are describing is a result of damage of inner lining of blood vessels by elevated glucose levels. Some of this damage caused by glycation of otherwise completely harmless lipoprotein particles.