Page 4 of 4 [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

tensordyne
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 2 Apr 2017
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 209
Location: Kirkland, WA

19 Jun 2021, 12:02 pm

A lipoprotein is a fat protein molecule, one part fat, one part protein. It is not a "complex biochemical assembly". Thus fat enters the bloodstream after digestion, as originally claimed, but denied by you. And lipoproteins are harmless? HDL or LDL? This is what I am talking about. Keto-insanity.

The other things that were written were so nutty, and needed so much unpacking analysis, that about three pages of writing into my response, I gave up. For instance, fat is not "good" for you, it is necessary for you to have Omega 3 / 6 fats in about the right ratio, and that is it.


_________________
Go Vegan!


badRobot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 553

19 Jun 2021, 12:21 pm

tensordyne wrote:
A lipoprotein is a fat protein molecule, one part fat, one part protein. It is not a "complex biochemical assembly". Thus fat enters the bloodstream after digestion, as originally claimed, but denied by you. And lipoproteins are harmless? HDL or LDL? This is what I am talking about. Keto-insanity.

The other things that were written were so nutty, and needed so much unpacking analysis, that about three pages of writing into my response, I gave up. For instance, fat is not "good" for you, it is necessary for you to have Omega 3 / 6 fats in about the right ratio, and that is it.


No, lipoprotein is not a fat molecule. That's why there is word "protein" there. Fat is hydrophobic and not water soluble, it can't be transported in blood stream as is, that's why it is enclosed by shell, this shell hydrophilic on outside surface and lipophilic on the inside to keep fat and cholesterol isolated.

Yes, lipoproteins are harmless, they function as fat and cholesterol transport and are essential for healthy function of human body.

Only glycated and oxidized lipoprotein particles, damaged by elevated blood glucose, are really harmful, they can't be withdrawn from bloodstream by liver and can stick to blood vessel lining when endothelial glycocalyx damaged by elevated blood glucose.

Thinking LDL is bad is just as stupid as thinking red blood cells are bad. They all exist for a reason. It has nothing to do with pro-keto or anti-keto stance, this is basic physiology.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

19 Jun 2021, 12:54 pm

Taking the most extreme policy position possible on meat consumption is unlikely to produce actual change in society - especially since a lot of people don't take kindly to other people moralizing about their diets. When exposed to pushy vegans, people may feel a sudden and irresistible urge to compulsively binge-eat foie gras for a week or two.

It will likely be more productive to encourage people to reduce their meat consumption by a smaller percentage - 10-20 percent, for instance - than to encourage them to become vegan.

1. It will be possible to do so for a lot more people.
2. It will be easier to stick to the diet.
3. It will be less intrusive.

And last time I checked, the attrition rate for veganism/vegetarianism is extremely high (84 % in 2014 according to one study).

So even if one managed to convince someone else to become vegan, there is a *very* high possibility he/she will revert to the old diet soon (sometimes within a few months or even less).

But a "Meatless Monday" (or whatever catchline those crazies down in Marketing come up with) is a lot more manageable for the average Joe, and it affords one the opportunity to try meatless cuisine without having to commit to a radical and (mostly) unrealistic change of lifestyle.

And from an environmental perspective, focusing solely on eliminating meat from the human diet may miss the bigger point; a substantial reduction in the environmental impact of meat production can be achieved if people would shift their meat consumption from beef and lamb to pork, poultry or fish, as the production of the former (especially beef) has larger carbon footprints.



tensordyne
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 2 Apr 2017
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 209
Location: Kirkland, WA

19 Jun 2021, 6:17 pm

Quote:
It has nothing to do with pro-keto or anti-keto stance, this is basic physiology.


Then why are you giving me a hard time about a dumbed-down version of digestion I gave and stating things inline with the Carbohydrate-Insulin Model of Obesity (which has been falsified) as well as stating other talking-points of the pro-keto low carb crowd? Seems pretty pro-keto to me.

If fat is the primary source of energy, why do athletes carb-load before meets, not fat or protein-load?

Quote:
Only glycated and oxidized lipoprotein particles, damaged by elevated blood glucose, are really harmful, they can't be withdrawn from bloodstream by liver and can stick to blood vessel lining when endothelial glycocalyx damaged by elevated blood glucose.


Let's just say for the sake of argument the above was agreed to, except for the "Only" part; even then, the above facts would still in no way contradict the biochemical process I described earlier. In point of fact, you could look at what you said, edited somewhat, as an addendum to my statements.


_________________
Go Vegan!


badRobot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 553

19 Jun 2021, 8:13 pm

tensordyne wrote:
Then why are you giving me a hard time about a dumbed-down version of digestion I gave and stating things inline with the Carbohydrate-Insulin Model of Obesity (which has been falsified) as well as stating other talking-points of the pro-keto low carb crowd? Seems pretty pro-keto to me.

Because your "dumbed-down" version has nothing to do with reality. I don't state talking points of the pro-keto crowd, this is basic knowledge about human physiology.

tensordyne wrote:
If fat is the primary source of energy, why do athletes carb-load before meets, not fat or protein-load?

Carb-loading is broscience. Athletes who follow scientific approach don't carb-load anymore, just make sure glycogen stores are replenished to full capacity before important efforts. Glycogen stores are located in each individual muscle fiber, are tiny and can't be replenished during effort. Glycogen still utilized for anaerobic processes and contributes to overall performance, but it is not primary source of energy.

There is no need to fat or protein load. Fat storages are already large and virtually never bottleneck performance and there are dedicated no protein storages in human body.

tensordyne wrote:
Quote:
Only glycated and oxidized lipoprotein particles, damaged by elevated blood glucose, are really harmful, they can't be withdrawn from bloodstream by liver and can stick to blood vessel lining when endothelial glycocalyx damaged by elevated blood glucose.


Let's just say for the sake of argument the above was agreed to, except for the "Only" part; even then, the above facts would still in no way contradict the biochemical process I described earlier. In point of fact, you could look at what you said, edited somewhat, as an addendum to my statements.


The above facts contradict your description. Facts mean dietary fat is not bad, blood glucose spikes are.



badRobot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 553

21 Jun 2021, 10:54 am

tensordyne wrote:
Happy to answer! It seems logical to conclude as you did, but with logic we must always be ready for confounding factors. B12 is in soil and used to be in everyone's drinking water because it is produced by microbes.


I just looked up data on vitamin B12 concentration in natural sources of water and numbers suggest you would need to consume like 30 liters from a stale pond water that for sure would kill you if consumed on daily basis or drink about metric ton of clean spring water to reach daily recommended value.

The only water-related source of B12 that would reliably provide realistic amounts of B12 is sewage containing fecal matter.

So, sorry, but I don't find this idea likely to be true.



tensordyne
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 2 Apr 2017
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 209
Location: Kirkland, WA

22 Jun 2021, 4:11 pm

Quote:
I just looked up data on vitamin B12 concentration in natural sources of water and numbers suggest you would need to consume like 30 liters from a stale pond water that for sure would kill you if consumed on daily basis or drink about metric ton of clean spring water to reach daily recommended value.

The only water-related source of B12 that would reliably provide realistic amounts of B12 is sewage containing fecal matter.

So, sorry, but I don't find this idea likely to be true.


Wow, you are super smart. Not!

Did you calculate in that we also used to get B12 from microbes in the soil? Or that we also produce some naturally in our gut if you have the right kind of microbiome? Where are you getting these zingers from. Reveal your source. I am incredulous of the idea that you came up with these on your own.

BTW, you could say the same about me. And it would be true! I admit it. I crib the hell off of a few good sources of Vegan knowledge. Proud of it. Here is one taking to town the idea that there is no such things as fat toxicity.



Or how about the question I asked about nutrients you can get from meat that you can not get better in plants, and you said about bioavailable, as if that is always a good thing. A more bioavailable toxin kills you faster. Nutrients have profiles with preferred bioavailability. Just increasing the bioavailability is not a good idea.

So let's see, plants have nutrients that animal products do not; plus meat comes with more of a toxin load than plants; plus so, so many other things...

You know what sucks about being a Vegan (aka, a modern person who is inline with being the human they actually are), you don't just have to know about your stuff, you have to learn about all these other diets too.

Please, give me your next zinger badRobot. :roll: I am so impressed. Oh yeah, I ignored going on here and felt better for it. I just feel for all the less informed fooled by this low-carb nonsense. All the strokes, heart disease and so on, can be avoided, unless you listen to low-carb advice, then you are :skull:


_________________
Go Vegan!


badRobot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 553

22 Jun 2021, 5:01 pm

tensordyne wrote:
Did you calculate in that we also used to get B12 from microbes in the soil? Or that we also produce some naturally in our gut if you have the right kind of microbiome? Where are you getting these zingers from. Reveal your source. I am incredulous of the idea that you came up with these on your own.

Clean soil doesn't contain significant amounts of B12. What you are talking about is soil fertilized by manure, it explains why some societies managed to get enough B12 consuming more of it from unhygienic vegetables/crops and therefore could get away with eating less animal-based foods. Yes, we produce some naturally in our gut, but we don't absorb it, human feces are rich in B12, that's why human sewage is rich in B12.

tensordyne wrote:


Plasma FFA contribute to insulin level just like plasma glucose, this is a well known fact. Insulin regulates energy supply. This guy conveniently doesn't mention that FFAs circulating in your bloodstream is your own fat, released from your own body fat. I guess it counts as "Animal fat". Dietary animal fat enters your bloodstream as lipoproteins.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

23 Jun 2021, 2:27 am

A scientific view on B12 deficiency among vegetarians/vegans:

Woo K.S., Kwok T.C., Celermajer D.S wrote:
Vegetarian diets have been associated with atherosclerosis protection, with healthier atherosclerosis risk profiles, as well as lower prevalence of, and mortality from, ischemic heart disease and stroke. However, there are few data concerning the possible cardiovascular effects of a vegan diet (with no meat, dairy or egg products). Vitamin B-12 deficiency is highly prevalent in vegetarians; this can be partially alleviated by taking dairy/egg products in lact-ovo-vegetarians. However, metabolic vitamin B-12 deficiency is highly prevalent in vegetarians in Australia, Germany, Italy and Austria, and in vegans (80%) in Hong Kong and India, where vegans rarely take vitamin B-12 fortified food or vitamin B-12 supplements. Similar deficiencies exist in northern Chinese rural communities consuming inadequate meat, egg or dairy products due to poverty or dietary habits. Vascular studies have demonstrated impaired arterial endothelial function and increased carotid intima-media thickness as atherosclerosis surrogates in such metabolic vitamin B-12 deficient populations, but not in lactovegetarians in China. Vitamin B-12 supplementation has a favourable impact on these vascular surrogates in Hong Kong vegans and in underprivileged communities in northern rural China. Regular monitoring of vitamin B-12 status is thus potentially beneficial for early detection and treatment of metabolic vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegans, and possibly for prevention of atherosclerosis-related diseases.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4145307/

In other words, vitamin B12 deficiency (which can have serious long term adverse health effects) is quite prevalent among those who adhere to a vegetarian/vegan diet, and one definetely ought to ensure that the dietary needs for B12 are met from other sources - either through fortified foods or dietary supplements.



kokopelli
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,431
Location: amid the sunlight and the dust and the wind

23 Jun 2021, 3:25 am

xxZeromancerlovexx wrote:
I tried being vegan and not only was I tired all the time and fake meat was nasty it really took a toll on me mentally.

I started eating meat and dairy again and feel much healthier. Is it normal for the vegan diet to not work for some people?


I eat just about anything. (Sometimes well past the expiration date, too.)

Years ago, I was a semi-vegetarian for a couple of years because I was having trouble digesting meat. I wasn't a pure vegetarian since I would eat a little meat -- an tuna or turkey sandwich every two to four weeks.

From that period of time, I quickly found that fake meat wasn't worth eating. If you became vegetarian and want fake meat, then just eat meat.

Some of my favorite dishes from back then:

1) vegetable tempura
2) bean sandwich -- I would smush up some pinto beans I cooked overnight, spread them on a whole wheat hamburger bun, add mustard (mustard was what I missed most while a vegetarian, but this helped), onions, and alfalfa sprouts.
3) spaghetti with a mushroom and onion marinara sauce.
4) various stir fried vegetables over rice
5) bean burritos and bean chalupas

I still eat some of these fairly often.

I can see being vegetarian for some reasons, but I have never accepted as rational those who become vegetarians or vegans out of some sense of so-called ethics.



badRobot
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 553

23 Jun 2021, 2:51 pm

tensordyne wrote:


I decided to take a look at obese swine paper, and found out he also conveniently forgot to mention high carb group swines gained 25% more weight.

Second thing he forgot to mention is there was no "low carb" group. Both groups were "high carb", second was "high carb + high fat".

Third thing he forgot to mention is what kind "evil animal fat" was fed to "high carb + high fat" group. Organic grass-fed butter? No, turns out it was hydrogenated soybean oil; 56% trans fatty acid.