Did you ever persuade an NT you were like them?

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Jayo
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22 May 2021, 6:27 pm

When I ask that question, I mean, like on a closer friendship level...where you got into their "circle" and got into some of their activities, get-togethers, etc.?

This goes hand-in-hand with the ability to mask...

What prompted me to post this was, I recall seeing a comment on a separate forum to the effect of "NTs judge others on how similar to them someone is; people on the autistic spectrum judge others on what they have done."
I believe this sums it up succinctly; and this is arguably grounded in evo-psych (evolutionary psychology), as many of us have noted, NTs still think in tribal-affinity terms, as part of "survival" (which is an obsolete way of thinking), and that if someone is like you then it means they possess similar genes to you, they should be treated as close (friends) and someone you want to help and for them to reciprocate in kind.

And basically, us "Aspie folk" like anyone who's reasonably intelligent, well-humoured, and not an a***ole. :D

So, in reflecting on my own life, I have a few moments in my younger adult years when I was accepted into a given fold and I'd managed to mask & mitigate my symptoms by a multi-modal approach of speech therapy, mirror rehearsal, reading up on social rules, etc, etc. I always dressed well, had a good CS/IT job in the second half of my 20s, had a good repertoire of idiomatic expressions, and was "sarcasm-fluent" :P

This certainly helped in bypassing the "NT defence system" of screening out anyone who didn't seem "like me" within the first couple of seconds (or less, as some evo-psych experts have suggested 8O ) - I admit to being a tad manipulative myself in getting them to warm up to me with subliminally calling attention to perceived common bonds, and used other subliminal bonding techniques with females, so that I could have some companionship :)

That's more "white manipulation" - not the dark manipulation that psychopaths use - who, incidentally, are easily able to slip by most "NT defense systems" but I digress.

I think a spark was lit inside me on this line of thinking from a chance meeting with a child/teen psychiatrist in the late 80s, when I was dealing with crushing bullying - neither he nor anyone else knew of Asperger's, but he told me "there are groups of people that bond together, because they are like each other, they have similar ways of thinking or habits or beliefs, and they reject others who don't fit those characteristics - sometimes they can be unreasonable with them, it's just part of their nature, it's not technically your fault." 8O

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Minervx_2
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25 May 2021, 10:29 am

Yes, I have. But here's the thing.

It not like I was making a super-conscious effort to alter who I was just to please other people.

I would be polite, appropriate to the situation, observe how they feeling, and talk about subjects that they can relate to (not just obsess over my own personal interests like some Aspies do). When in doubt, I just ask them questions about themselves.

And lastly, I don't really care if they think I'm an Aspie or NT. All I care about is if the interaction with them goes well. If it's a good friendship, it doesn't matter whether you're Aspie or NT.



Jayo
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26 May 2021, 7:10 am

Minervx_2 wrote:
Yes, I have. But here's the thing.

It not like I was making a super-conscious effort to alter who I was just to please other people.

I would be polite, appropriate to the situation, observe how they feeling, and talk about subjects that they can relate to (not just obsess over my own personal interests like some Aspies do). When in doubt, I just ask them questions about themselves.

And lastly, I don't really care if they think I'm an Aspie or NT. All I care about is if the interaction with them goes well. If it's a good friendship, it doesn't matter whether you're Aspie or NT.


Yes, I totally second this..! ! If only most NTs were more enlightened in adhering to this line of thought. :)
I'm guessing you had to practice this a few times, to gauge nonverbal feedback on a somewhat conscious level, looking for signs of discomfort or "uncanny valley" affect, which would be a cue that you might have appeared "unnatural" or deer-like expression with stilted conversation, but after some practice (speaking from my own experience) the interaction can just "feel right" (an NT thought process) so you don't have that sinking feeling of people shunning you or treating you unfairly later on.



illneverbeold
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26 May 2021, 9:32 am

I'm in my mid 40's and have experienced different circles and clicks through the years, trying relentlessly to 'fit in' but here's the thing, I'm who I am and don't give a rat's a$$ to be part of their mold any longer. Mostly I was welcomed in crowds that drink a lot which I don't find stimulating at all. I've come to the conclusion that my husband and grown daughter (also ASD) is and will be the only best friends I care about and will probably ever have. I find myself with many acquaintences but it never ends up being a true friend. I'm somehow always an outsider. I digress, this is not the fault of the NT people around me, I'm viewed as odd, unaproachable and misunderstood. I find most people are 'surface people' what I mean by that is they choose to confer about things that mean nothing to them. I tend to be 'too much' for them, rarely does someone say they like my candor. I have tired of chasing a dream of being welcomed and appreciated into a group of friends. I am well versed in sarcasm and 'white manipulation' which, I believe is why I've been able to grow my career and easily get a job. My mother refers to all manipulation as negative, I'm not sure if this is the view of the majority of NT thinking or just hers.



Jayo wrote:
When I ask that question, I mean, like on a closer friendship level...where you got into their "circle" and got into some of their activities, get-togethers, etc.?

This goes hand-in-hand with the ability to mask...

What prompted me to post this was, I recall seeing a comment on a separate forum to the effect of "NTs judge others on how similar to them someone is; people on the autistic spectrum judge others on what they have done."
I believe this sums it up succinctly; and this is arguably grounded in evo-psych (evolutionary psychology), as many of us have noted, NTs still think in tribal-affinity terms, as part of "survival" (which is an obsolete way of thinking), and that if someone is like you then it means they possess similar genes to you, they should be treated as close (friends) and someone you want to help and for them to reciprocate in kind.

And basically, us "Aspie folk" like anyone who's reasonably intelligent, well-humoured, and not an a***ole. :D

So, in reflecting on my own life, I have a few moments in my younger adult years when I was accepted into a given fold and I'd managed to mask & mitigate my symptoms by a multi-modal approach of speech therapy, mirror rehearsal, reading up on social rules, etc, etc. I always dressed well, had a good CS/IT job in the second half of my 20s, had a good repertoire of idiomatic expressions, and was "sarcasm-fluent" :P

This certainly helped in bypassing the "NT defence system" of screening out anyone who didn't seem "like me" within the first couple of seconds (or less, as some evo-psych experts have suggested 8O ) - I admit to being a tad manipulative myself in getting them to warm up to me with subliminally calling attention to perceived common bonds, and used other subliminal bonding techniques with females, so that I could have some companionship :)

That's more "white manipulation" - not the dark manipulation that psychopaths use - who, incidentally, are easily able to slip by most "NT defense systems" but I digress.

I think a spark was lit inside me on this line of thinking from a chance meeting with a child/teen psychiatrist in the late 80s, when I was dealing with crushing bullying - neither he nor anyone else knew of Asperger's, but he told me "there are groups of people that bond together, because they are like each other, they have similar ways of thinking or habits or beliefs, and they reject others who don't fit those characteristics - sometimes they can be unreasonable with them, it's just part of their nature, it's not technically your fault." 8O

yes - AA-HAAA.



dragonsanddemons
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26 May 2021, 10:20 am

I’ve always known that I can’t even pretend (successfully) to fit in. Instead, I’ve learned how to avoid drawing any attention (positive or negative) to myself, so as far as anyone else is concerned, I basically don’t exist. Now if I could just figure out how to not do it all the time :?


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mohsart
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27 May 2021, 3:50 pm

Well, since I was diagnosed at the age of 52, I've been able to fit in for some years.
In school I was a weirdo, but since then people mostly thought I was "normal", albeit putting my foot in my mouth a bit more often than most.
Friends and family didn't really believe me when I told them about my suspicions, before I had the assessment.
Buut, I'm pretty sure that most or all of my friends have or should have a diagnosis, be it ASD, ADHD, or something else...

/Mats


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Mona Pereth
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28 May 2021, 11:23 pm

Jayo wrote:
"NTs judge others on how similar to them someone is; people on the autistic spectrum judge others on what they have done."
I believe this sums it up succinctly; and this is arguably grounded in evo-psych (evolutionary psychology), as many of us have noted, NTs still think in tribal-affinity terms, as part of "survival" (which is an obsolete way of thinking), and that if someone is like you then it means they possess similar genes to you, they should be treated as close (friends) and someone you want to help and for them to reciprocate in kind.

Hmm, I think it is an oversimplification. I think both NT's and autistic people tend to judge people based on both similarities to ourselves and actions. The difference is that we're such freaks that we just can't be too fussy about the similarities-to-ourselves part.


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30 May 2021, 11:54 am

I never needed to.

I don't see the point.
Well, intellectually, I understand why it seem necessary.
But I don't see it for a priority.


In my worst states, yet I'm still capable. Physically, it's easy to blend, I need not to mask a thing.
Emotionally, it'll be different. I only need enough emotional regulation to intentionally pass and intentionally entertain people.


However, give me a full set of working executive functioning, remove all forms of fatigue... I'd be a very different person.

I'd be better than NT with no effort in my part -- because in most social dynamics, where I'm capable of thinking and acting my age...
I'm very reliable and very in control of the situation, than at mercy of everything outside me.

So I'd need not to persuade NTs. It's the NTs who's trying to persuade me. :P


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Jayo
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30 May 2021, 1:42 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Jayo wrote:
"NTs judge others on how similar to them someone is; people on the autistic spectrum judge others on what they have done."
I believe this sums it up succinctly; and this is arguably grounded in evo-psych (evolutionary psychology), as many of us have noted, NTs still think in tribal-affinity terms, as part of "survival" (which is an obsolete way of thinking), and that if someone is like you then it means they possess similar genes to you, they should be treated as close (friends) and someone you want to help and for them to reciprocate in kind.

Hmm, I think it is an oversimplification. I think both NT's and autistic people tend to judge people based on both similarities to ourselves and actions. The difference is that we're such freaks that we just can't be too fussy about the similarities-to-ourselves part.


Yeah, true that!! Because we have more limited options, it's "beggars can't be choosers", so we aren't so inclined to put up with this "social hierarchy / social value" B.S. :roll: