"Anti Racism" controversy getting ugly in Virginia

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Kraichgauer
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12 Jun 2021, 9:17 pm

cyberdad wrote:
tensordyne wrote:
So called "Black Culture" (Cornel West, et. al) in the US is now being linked with Marxist Black Nationalist Utopian dribble because of CRT.


Cornell West and Henry Louis Gates Jr. are Harvard educated historians and intellectuals who basically document the history of black Americans. How exactly is being a historian associated with marxism?

This seems to be the fundamental objection to CRT and the 1619 project. "I don't want my white kids to hear about what happened to slaves"


8) 8) 8)


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tensordyne
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13 Jun 2021, 8:52 am

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Cornell West and Henry Louis Gates Jr. are Harvard educated historians and intellectuals who basically document the history of black Americans. How exactly is being a historian associated with marxism?

This seems to be the fundamental objection to CRT and the 1619 project. "I don't want my white kids to hear about what happened to slaves"


I used to think the same way, before I learned what was going down in various humanities departments. Cornell West, to the best of my understanding, is highly influenced by certain thinkers, Hegel and Marx among them. I would have to look up Henry Gates Jr. This is all besides the point in some ways. For the record, I am all for children learning history, all of it. I just want the Scholarly Historians teaching it, not ones with an idealogical axe to grind. If Prof. West is doing scholarly work with rigour, I am all for it. But if he mixes in his own preconceived religious ideations into his work, then I am against such activities.

A fundamental objection by those on the Liberal Left to CRT is not about history, it is about Critical Theory and the style of activism associated with it. Modernism is a good thing. Liberal values are important to preserve; however, Marx is anti-modern. CRT acts like a mind-virus on otherwise well-meaning people.

For instance, do you think there are white male hetero-normative ways of knowing called Science (that is inherently oppressive); versus other ways of "knowing" that are just as good as the fruits of Science but ethnic, or associated with particular identities and thus are 'authentic' 8O :roll: Do you think there is no truth, ever, just different groups pushing for power? If you think there is something wrong with believing in ideas like that, then you too dislike CRT!

Don't listen to me though, I am just a concerned citizen, not a specialist. Criticism from a left perspective of these topics is done much better by Helen Pluckrose than I ever could.

The scholarship on the 1619 Project is another topic of interest. That is worthy of its own thread. Forgive me as a believer in Science, tolerance, equality, evidence-based reasoning, and some aspects of Capitalism (and not at all averse to Socialism in the government), that I am not a big fan of Racist Utopianisms.


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13 Jun 2021, 11:25 am

cyberdad wrote:
Ironically under CRT this east Asian woman would have more right speak about race in America than you or I Brictoria :lol:

Perhaps she might be shooting herself in the foot criticising CRT when it gives her a platform to speak about race as a POC.


I realise that this will likely be a huge shock to you, but the majority of people don't care about another person's race, and base their treatment of others on the person's character (and expect to be treated in the same way)...

The internet is good in this way, as it makes it much harder for those who prefer to focus on a person's superficial characteristics over their character\message to judge them - They are either forced to consider people (and their messages) on an equal footing, or to demonstrate their personal prejudices through assumptions they make in their posts about other people's races.


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13 Jun 2021, 7:04 pm

Brictoria wrote:
I realise that this will likely be a huge shock to you, but the majority of people don't care about another person's race, and base their treatment of others on the person's character (and expect to be treated in the same way)...

Well that would certainly be news to indigenous people. Feel free to share that good news with them.

It may be a shock to you but its much easier to treat people based on their character when you move in spaces that only include people that look like you. In keeping this discussion relevant to the thread, the parents who object to CRT and the 1619 project in the article live in predominantly white spaces and they find the inclusion of this content in their children's curriculum an intrusion in the carefully manicured psychological (and artificial) space they are creating for their children.

Truth and reconciliation in America will only come when people accept the past. Only then can they truly move on and start applying MLKs dream (which you have often quoted).

Brictoria wrote:
The internet is good in this way, as it makes it much harder for those who prefer to focus on a person's superficial characteristics over their character\message to judge them - They are either forced to consider people (and their messages) on an equal footing, or to demonstrate their personal prejudices through assumptions they make in their posts about other people's races.


Acceptance of the truth is important, whether it be race, gender, disability or other characteristics. But there are those who don't want to hear about what barriers/problems other people have to endure if it conflicts with their world views. I think it's called selective ignorance.



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13 Jun 2021, 7:17 pm

tensordyne wrote:
A fundamental objection by those on the Liberal Left to CRT is not about history, it is about Critical Theory and the style of activism associated with it. Modernism is a good thing. Liberal values are important to preserve; however, Marx is anti-modern. CRT acts like a mind-virus on otherwise well-meaning people.


This phenomenon is not unique to the United States. In Australia we have the history wars which have been going on since the 1980s where conservatives have accused universities and government broadcasters of being infiltrated by socialist/marxists who have injected feminist and race discourse into the curriculum from high-school to University.

A former conservative Australian prime-minister attacked the pervasive teaching of history in this country as it is (using his words) a black armband view of history. For example he objected to the use of the word "genocide" to describe what happened to Australian aborigines after European settlement. It tarnishes an image/legacy they want to create that selectively leaves out all the bad things that happened.



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13 Jun 2021, 8:36 pm

cyberdad wrote:
tensordyne wrote:
A fundamental objection by those on the Liberal Left to CRT is not about history, it is about Critical Theory and the style of activism associated with it. Modernism is a good thing. Liberal values are important to preserve; however, Marx is anti-modern. CRT acts like a mind-virus on otherwise well-meaning people.


This phenomenon is not unique to the United States. In Australia we have the history wars which have been going on since the 1980s where conservatives have accused universities and government broadcasters of being infiltrated by socialist/marxists who have injected feminist and race discourse into the curriculum from high-school to University.

A former conservative Australian prime-minister attacked the pervasive teaching of history in this country as it is (using his words) a black armband view of history. For example he objected to the use of the word "genocide" to describe what happened to Australian aborigines after European settlement. It tarnishes an image/legacy they want to create that selectively leaves out all the bad things that happened.



sorry to jump into one of your threads

If you had a aborigine prime-minister who said white people were a parasite what would your response be?



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13 Jun 2021, 8:46 pm

enz wrote:
If you had a aborigine prime-minister who said white people were a parasite what would your response be?


I doubt that would ever happen. I don't recall Obama saying that about white Americans.

I think there needs to be a reckoning or some type of reconciliation first that would alleviate the need for a future aboriginal prime-minister ever having to express that type of sentiment.



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13 Jun 2021, 9:02 pm

im not asking if it would happen im asking how you would respond.



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13 Jun 2021, 9:09 pm

If a hypothetical aboriginal prime-minister called white Australians "parasites" In the current atmosphere I would give him/her some slack as he/she might be expressing frustration as a member of the dispossessed/oppressed where equality is still a work in progress.

In a hypothetical post-racist society I would criticise him/her for opening up old wounds.



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13 Jun 2021, 11:59 pm

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If a hypothetical aboriginal prime-minister called white Australians "parasites" In the current atmosphere I would give him/her some slack as he/she might be expressing frustration as a member of the dispossessed/oppressed where equality is still a work in progress.

In a hypothetical post-racist society I would criticise him/her for opening up old wounds.


Is this parasite idea coming from a news story, or something? As a hypothetical, it has an intense edge to it.

The logic in the above is part of the problem. How to handle modernity? First the white man showed up with plows and guns to take away the land. Then they took away the most precious thing of all: the good feeling about group identity based upon supernatural belief... gone.

Therefore, every civilization should consider First Contact rules. Honestly though, I do not give two s**ts about anyone's sense of group identity. That could be because I am an Aspie, or because I only prize knowledge that is independently verifiable outside of any one group's beliefs -- but whatever the cause; I certainly care about people's experiences, and that is the problem.

People link group and individual experiences in multitudinous ways that makes it hard to even discuss this topic. Add in a history of White Christian Males of old singing ("Onward Christian Soldier", "Modern Major General", etc...) about how they are superior because of "science", and Nazis, and the Tuskegee Airman Attrocity, the desire to keep magical beliefs in the world, Critical Studies, etc... and then the problem becomes almost intractable.

Should we not push for a world civilization where group identifications do not even matter? Or at least have a version of the humanities that tries to harmonize, unify and explore humanity within a scientific lense? An Aspie, non-groupy version of the humanities?

Universities and colleges the world over are likely completely taken over by Marxists in their humanities departments, and yep, this is nothing new. The only additional part is I did not understand how bad the anti-science, anti-rational rhetoric is. Are you up on post-modernism and its relation to the Frankfurt School to Social Justice Studies, etc...? I know I am not. What little I know about this topic is already unsettling.

We live in an alt-modern world, like it, or lump it. The far left and the far right both employ religious zombies to infect the world with their illiberal claptrap.


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14 Jun 2021, 12:07 am

tensordyne wrote:
Should we not push for a world civilization where group identifications do not even matter? Or at least have a version of the humanities that tries to harmonize, unify and explore humanity within a scientific lense? An Aspie, non-groupy version of the humanities?.

I'm a globalist, the current divisions based on nationality, class, race, ability etc are an artificial man-made construct. I prefer a planetary system where people follow one universal language (plus whatever regional language they want to speak) something like the galactic federation in Star Wars,

tensordyne wrote:
Universities and colleges the world over are likely completely taken over by Marxists in their humanities departments, and yep, this is nothing new. The only additional part is I did not understand how bad the anti-science, anti-rational rhetoric is. Are you up on post-modernism and its relation to the Frankfurt School to Social Justice Studies, etc...? I know I am not. What little I know about this topic is already unsettling.


Can you please give me one example (just one) where objective, accurate information has been hijacked by marxism? I am always intrigued when somebody expresses this claim with such confidence....



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14 Jun 2021, 1:06 am

Hey cyberdad, from your previous post I take it you are a neoliberal thinker?? IDK, just noting things and guessing. Curious and asked with the honest humility associated with ignorance.

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Can you please give me one example (just one) where objective, accurate information has been hijacked by marxism? I am always intrigued when somebody expresses this claim with such confidence....


Lysenko

And also, get with the times. Marxism is just one component at play. This topic is mostly about Anti-racism and how Ugly the Controversy is in Virginia and related topics. Social Justice Studies has themes, some Marx here, some Post-mod there, groupiness here and there, etc...

Is there heavy representation in Universities for Marxist ideas in the Humanities Departments. Yes, yes there is. Check out the curricula, scholarship and professor titles associated with the humanities to see why.

Sorry, not a fan of how many of the soft sciences are currently being promulgated. Physics and Math are real -- group politics, like you say, is artificial.


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14 Jun 2021, 1:51 am

Edit: Ignorance on my part! lest anyone read that the mean spirited way, which was not my intent!


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14 Jun 2021, 2:23 am

tensordyne wrote:


Communism is largely dead today. Lysenko's theory of Lamarckism in biology was only promulgated because it fitted with Soviet propaganda peddled by Stalin (the idea that if you modified a "comrades" behaviour then good communist behavior/conduct will be inherited by the next generation.

Outside of Communist Russia in the 1950s Lysenko was unknown.



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14 Jun 2021, 5:42 am

cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
I realise that this will likely be a huge shock to you, but the majority of people don't care about another person's race, and base their treatment of others on the person's character (and expect to be treated in the same way)...

Well that would certainly be news to indigenous people. Feel free to share that good news with them.

It may be a shock to you but its much easier to treat people based on their character when you move in spaces that only include people that look like you. In keeping this discussion relevant to the thread, the parents who object to CRT and the 1619 project in the article live in predominantly white spaces and they find the inclusion of this content in their children's curriculum an intrusion in the carefully manicured psychological (and artificial) space they are creating for their children.


I'm guessing it must be one of those luxury "upper-class"\city prejudices, then...

We had students at my country schools who were of Greek, Chinese (from Hong Kong), South African (and more) descent (all of those being either born overseas, or first generation immigrants), as well as some of aboriginal heritage who were treated the same as anyone else by both the school community, as well as their families by the wider community - Of course, we were all from poorer backgrounds (and, except for those who lived in town, from semi-isolated locations), so maybe that's where the difference in outlook and judgement of those who are different comes from - The only thing we cared about in another person was their abilities, not having the luxury to pick and choose who we looked to for help based upon superficialities such as race... It seems to be mainly the "upper class" who get onto the "racism" bandwagon, presumably because it allows them a "socially acceptable" way of showing "pity" to those they deem as inferior to themselves...

In fact, it seems this focus on a person's race does come predominantly from the cities, with (in the case of Aboriginies, for example) those who live a comfortable\typical life in the cities being given much more "publicity" to air their views than those from the country, and those views rarely reflect those of the people struggling in the outback communities where help is needed - What is worse is seeing the hypocracy involved in people claiming to be concerned about the Aboriginal people, yet when there is a thread discussing what they have to endure in the country, those people instead decide that attacking the source presenting the views is more "productive" to their cause than focussing on the problems those people endure... Much like the type of hypocrit who seeks to proclaim their "anti-racism" virtue to the world, while simultaneously seeing nothing wrong with using racial language\stereotypes to denigrate others - Telling those they wish to impress what they think those people want to hear, whilst showing others how they really feel about the subject through their actions.


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14 Jun 2021, 4:07 pm

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Communism is largely dead today.


What a relief that is true. However, I personally hope community, communes and coops, never die out. Madrigal, REI, GNU, Kibbutzem, etc... live long and prosper! It is about the contract. If a social or private contract is well-designed, socialism or capitalism are not the issue. The issue is a lack of what lawyers call "consideration", and the cronyism that exists as a result (that can happen in either case).

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Lysenko's theory of Lamarckism in biology was only promulgated because it fitted with Soviet propaganda peddled by Stalin (the idea that if you modified a "comrades" behaviour then good communist behavior/conduct will be inherited by the next generation.


Well, you asked for, just one, and there it be. Marxism to Leninist-Marxism, to Stalin, to Lysenko. And you shall know them by their fruits.

We can play this game all day. I am more worried about Post-modernism for instance than Marxism because it rejects anything approximating a hard claim. If you want to go back far enough though, I am not a fan of the field of applied dogmatics (aka Philosophy).

Alchemy is to Chemistry; as Philosophy is to Science.

What links the topics of Anti-racism (as defined by Ibram X. Kendi), Post-modernism, the Frankfurt School, Identity Grievance Studies, etc. etc. is groupy-ness, the belief that there is no truth and everything is a social construct to favor one group over all others. This is the central issue. Math and science are not to be trusted; how "authentic" you are is trustable, never forget that! :wink:

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Outside of Communist Russia in the 1950s Lysenko was unknown.


In the past, outside of a few Academics in cloistered Humanities Departments, no one knew about Critical Studies either, but bad ideas from Universities have a way of escaping into the mainstream.

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In fact, it seems this focus on a person's race does come predominantly from the cities...


That adds up. The cities have the universities, and the universities have people who study Critical Studies where everyone gets ethnic labels that are more important than the communities they live in. :lol:


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