Page 1 of 1 [ 10 posts ] 

thinkinginpictures
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,109

03 Jun 2021, 7:51 am

Scientists has always been attacked for having certain political opinions, as the majority of scientists are leaning to the left of the political spectrum.

But could it be that it is the other way around? That the scientific findings themselves are what makes the scientists lean left?

An example is man-made climate change. Leftists wants more climate control, therefore scientists votes for the leftists.

Or Science tells us that people on UBI (Unconditional Basic Income) has better health and less stress than those recieving other kinds of welfare benefits. This makes scientists favor UBI, a leftist idea, instead of benefits which requires work in return.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... ell-being/

I think Scientists should be our World Leaders. No more politicians. No more voting. Facts can stand on its own, facts do not change by votes. Therefore universal suffrage should be abolished.



Mikah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2015
Age: 33
Posts: 2,061
Location: England

03 Jun 2021, 8:40 am

Modern Science is a prisoner of politics, one of its many self-imposed prisons. It's not that scientists are left wing, it's that scientists that aren't left wing or hold unfashionable views find it very difficult to be (honest and forthright) scientists these days and are often chased to the fringe or out of the profession entirely.

Bruce Charlton wrote a whole book on the topic:
https://corruption-of-science.blogspot.com/


_________________
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man -
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began: -
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!


GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

03 Jun 2021, 10:29 am

Here is a political question:

You have $ 1,000,000,000,000. What should you spend it on?

UBI?
Cancer treatment?
The fight against climate change?
Anti-Asteroid Nuclear Fusion Inter-Planetary Ballistic Missiles?

That is a political question where no scientific proof can guide us to the correct decision. And since we have limited resources at our disposal (something science *can* prove), we cannot simply choose "all of the above".

Political decisions require value judgments about different competing - and often mutually exclusive - outcomes.

As such, facts cannot stand on their own.



QuantumChemist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,427
Location: Midwest

03 Jun 2021, 10:31 am

As a scientist, I try to stay out of the political realm most of the time. (I used to be a republican, but gave up most of those views to become more middle of the road when that party became deeper right leaning a few years ago.). My old home state of Kansas is a strongly republican state, so you stand out if you do not express those views openly there. I changed my perspective when I left that state. A former governor was threatening to cut state funding for higher education, which would have cost me my job at the university. I moved on to a better place that actually respects higher education. There can be things that drag me into that area of political discussion on occasion. I am still human with opinions, but am working on being less so.

An example: A former president waged a war against real scientists, so that pit me against him and his policies. In one of his first weeks in power, he slashed funding for science education grants and fired good scientists that did not agree with his way of thinking. I cannot support someone who rejects the principles of science simply because it does not fit their whims. I am happy he is no longer in power as I do not have to waste mental energy thinking about the ramifications of his bad policies in my area anymore. His attempts to lead the masses with bad advice on medical treatments with chemicals was a real PITA to me. I had to spend quality time away from focusing on my research projects by explaining to others why these ideas were not just bad, but outright harmful to do.



QuantumChemist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,427
Location: Midwest

03 Jun 2021, 10:48 am

GGPViper wrote:
Here is a political question:

You have $ 1,000,000,000,000. What should you spend it on?

UBI?
Cancer treatment?
The fight against climate change?
Anti-Asteroid Nuclear Fusion Inter-Planetary Ballistic Missiles?

That is a political question where no scientific proof can guide us to the correct decision. And since we have limited resources at our disposal (something science *can* prove), we cannot simply choose "all of the above".

Political decisions require value judgments about different competing - and often mutually exclusive - outcomes.

As such, facts cannot stand on their own.


One cannot simply throw money at problems without creating other ones. You would have to prioritize each problem to see what could be budgeted. The catch is in what gets prioritized is also part of an opinion based upon the data at hand.

That being said, I am not without bias. I would spend the money developing anti-matter generation (using solar light) and designing a functional annihilation reactor to produce electrical energy. Part of this involves NLO materials that can convert EMS higher than visible light into lower forms that can be usable for solar cells. It is not an easy thing to do, but could reduce the environmental damage that other power sources cause. Annihilation is a higher form of nuclear energy production that is 100% energy conversion from matter/anti-matter, given off over the entire EMS. Current nuclear technology is no where near that good in power conversion.



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,952

03 Jun 2021, 12:21 pm



It's 'Funny'; Trying To Convince Folks That Emotions
Rule Life on A Site Mostly Dedicated to Folks With

Issues with Social-Empathic-Intelligence Who

Are Among Those of the Broader Autism

Phenotype of Very Systemizing

Mechanical Cognition

Minds Without

As Many Colors of Emotions/FEELINGS

That Actually Influence Others to Inspire

Them to Actually Move. In Other Words, 'Politics'; The

The REAL Politics of Inspiring Others to Actually Act In Life;

Of Course, Yes, Until About the Age of 53, i Was Also Slow to

Understand the 'Facts' of Life; That 'REAL' Life isn't A Spread Sheet

All Of Numbers And Equations; or An Automative Repair Shop With

A Flow Chart to Solve Problems That Occur With Cars Seamlessly As Such;

Particularly

Now With

Replaceable

Computer Parts;

My God How Did Our Country

Get So Ignorant With A Total Liar;

A Three Ring Orange Circus Criminal of One Man In Charge;

Oh Goodness, Politics Is Never Truly Science; Indeed, IT IS 'The Art of The Deal';

Even If Ya Have to Get Ghost Authors To Write A Bible And Rule A Roman Empire too...

Oh Yeah, Religion Is Politics too; It is the Glue That Keeps Folks On the Same Choir Sheet In Church too.

Betcha, if i was A Shut-in, in my Bedroom For 66 Months, Spending the Last 33 Months of That on the Autism

Spectrum on a Site Specifically Tailored for Autistic Folks And Other Neurodiverse People Even Assessed

As Totally And Permanently Disabled By Both Law and Medical Doctors Same; In Just A Little Over A Year;

With Just A Free Solo Public Dance, With No Lessons at All, i Would Be Notified of Just How Famous

And Legend, i am After Doing that for a Little Over 2,000 Miles; WeLL It's True, in Trump Town

(By the Way, Shortly After i Recovered From the Pain, i Documented On 'This Site', To Come, There
Were No Limits FOR ME After That Around the July Through August 'Time Frame' of 2013, Then)

USA, You'd Practically Have to Deal With the Worst Pain Known to Humankind for 66 Months

To Have Tough Enough Skin to Even Do it the Length of a Football Field, Hehe; Particularly

In Walmart, Where Toxic Patriarchy Still Roams Most in Deep South States of Trump Land 'Hear'...

Anyway, the Installer Contractor for my New Front Door And Storm Glass Door From Lowe's Reminded

me Yesterday of Just How Far my Politics of Dance Influence Went as in Just A Year i Became Famous Enough

In the Halloween Season of 2014, For Boys In Middle School, To Dress Up Like Me With Shorts And Colorful Shirts

And Shades to Go Tricker-Treating as i was Recognized as Famous Enough in the Community All on my Solo

Dance Journey For Boys in Middle School To Be Inspired Enough by my Don't Give an F Attitude What Anyone

Thinks About me to Be

more

Like me

Than Other

'Super Heroes' For Halloween Hehe...

Oh Yeah, And in Case Anyone Believes this is Hyperbole;

One Perusal of Just One Last Blog Post With Over 1000 Selfies

With the Most Beautiful Metro Women Smiling Like They Were in

The 50's Dancing With 'Elvis Presley', Should Remove All Doubts of 'Hyperbole'

In How 'So-Called Word Think Intellect' is Not Required, Not Even A Word to Change the

World in Some Real Measurable Way; Even if it is only The Most Beautiful Smiles of Ecstatic Joy

(Yeah, Baby, i'm Still A Scientist By Old 'Scare Crow' Intellect At Least; Measure it all, i still Do
Observable As such Still Now; Yet IF You 'See', i am Also A ReFormed Lion And Tin Man too)

Perhaps

Ever

Gathered

in One Place

And One Time

On A Blog Post Ever HAha...

Other than That Sitting At A Restaurant

With My Sister And Her Gay Friend Who Rose

Up From Relative Poverty And All the Bullying One

Receives in a Trump Place of Life That Way Becoming

A Highest Level Paid Federal Employee Retiring At Higher

Pay Than Homophobic Mike Pence As Vice President; i Didn't Have

Many Approved Societal Achievements to Express; However, The Women

Waitresses Insisted That i Take a Selfie Photo With Them After i Complied

With Their Request For me to Dance in the Restaurant Solo For Them; Note,
i Kept My Shirt on; However, At The Dance Hall in the Parking Lot i endured
Requests From Young Women Crowded in Cars for me to take it off! Some Days

It isn't the Scientist

Who Leads;

And

Not Even the Leader

Who Inspires 'What' Most Drives the Human Species to 'Dance'...

Anyway, Of Course, i Still Have The Photo; The Empirical Evidence for that day...

Even the Car Load of Women; Yet i Won't Share That to Keep the Innocent 'Sweet';

We Are Never Gonna Have A Leader in Politics, Who Doesn't DO Something to

Move the Human Spirit to Action... Either Positive OR Negative Now...

i Do It In a Positive Way For No Pay...

Others Are Never Satisfied

And Empty Within;

Never Filled

Up With Only

Greed for the Love They
Will Never Generate Within or Genuinely Give Free...

On the Other Hand, Who In the Hell Would Wanna Be a

'Head of State

Politician'...

Rhetorical
Question it is...

i'll Stick with the Politics

of Dancing; The Reality of Loving Free, Just Being 'The Wind'...

In Short, Folks Have Different Personality Types That Can And Will
Change DRAMATICALLY too; Yet 'Scientist' And 'Leader' Are Generally on

The Opposite Spectrum Polar Points of the Human Condition; In short, IT WON'T WORK...

MOST LEADERS WILL CONTINUE to wanna be leaders; MOST SCIENTISTS WILL DO their special interest,

mostly solo too...

For me it was

Just a Special

Interest; Just A Different

Kind Than What Bill Gates,

Steve Jobs, And Elon Musk Enjoy AND JUST
DO WITH LASER FOCUS NO MATTER WHAT COMES NEXT...

i Don't Give Any F's About Being Famous Or Legend; Just Give

me A Smile of A Beautiful Woman And i am Whole And Complete Enough...

Yes That's my Special Interest, MaKinG Women Smile; Apparently The Young Men

Understood THE UltiMate Reward....

More About Those Rewards

of Poetry In 'Some Other

Topic', The Same; Hehe...

"Mama Don't Let Your Boys

Grow Up to Be Cowboys", if Ya

Want Them to Feel Whole and

Complete Not Drowned in A Tear And Beer Song

Or A Spread Sheet, Or A Science Project, Etc., too;

Teach 'em More to Be Like me, HeHe; Free Dance,
Song, And Smiling Women is Heaven at least NoW FoR Me..

And Just to 'Think', i Never Even Have to 'Grab Trump Cats' Or Say

A Word, in Dance At Least, to Feel 'Their Pleasure'; Yet Poetry is A Longer Story..

Oh Yeah, And Don't Forget Again, i Did All This Approaching 60 Years-Old and More still now;

Never too Late to Live

As Long

As We

Are

Breathing Now Free...

About 99 Percent of Folks

Don't Let Go Like This Until

Right Before Death to Be 'Wind'; Sadly in this

Life That's the Only Heaven Real They May Experience..

In

Shortest

Forevermorenow...
Longer Now... Why Wait...

Most Folks Are Just too Stuffed
With What They've Been Spoon-Fed From Birth...

Of course, iN only my Expanding View Still Now
Even One Smile Makes All i Do Worth it Still Now
And Just to Feel my Wife's Smile, Even More Beautiful; Heaven Breathes FoR ME AT Least..:)

"One Book Is Not Enough"

-me

Image

Image



_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


roronoa79
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Jan 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 882
Location: Indiana

03 Jun 2021, 5:32 pm

Scientists become political when they reach scientific conclusions that have implications that are inconvenient to those in power.

When climate change became increasingly obvious to climatologists, those who benefit from industries which cause climate change saw their wealth threatened. They then made it a political issue by paying politicians to say that climate change isn't settled science. (It is).

When medical science began to show that tobacco was unhealthy, those in the tobacco industry saw their wealth threatened. They then paid their politicians to argue against any public steps to curb tobacco use with vague excuses about personal responsibility and government overregulation.

Economics might be the science most politicized by the right. Current capitalist consensus benefits those with wealth. Those people are going to use their wealth to suppress economists who suggest that steps need to be taken to reduce poverty, environmental damage, and curb inequality. Those who benefit from inequality pay their politicians to channel public funds toward America- and capitalist-friendly economists; while also doing everything in their power to use politicians and the media to vilify left-of-center economists.

Science is almost always apolitical until it goes against the interests of those with power. If it goes against capitalist orthodoxy, then it isn't settle science and the debate needs to go on longer. Supposedly.

To the anti-science right there is no amount of debate that is enough to settle an issue like climate change. They know on some level they can't win the climate debate. They've decided to settle for prolonging it. They've settle for throwing billions of dollars at the issue so they can get the tiny 1% of climate scientists on their side that they need to convince their contrarian base that they think the things they think that the wealthy want them to think because they're such gosh darn smart free-thinkers, and not because they would rather be spoonfed knowledge by those with wealth and power than by scientists who never wanted this issue to be political. They just did not account on corporate puppet politicians and pundits being more concerned by wealth than reality.

Conservatives don't get unfairly run out of scientific circles because they're conservatives. They just are recognized for what they are: ignorant of the facts, corporate shills, or contrarians masquerading as free-thinkers. That, and if you actually take an objective, educated view of the facts in climate and social science, you would have a hard time remaining a conservative wrt those issues.

Conservatism gave up on scientific fact when it started to undermine corporate profits, American power, American exceptionalism, and biblical literalism.
To those who build their lives on those things, no amount of debate will ever be sufficient, and education suffers for it.


_________________
Diagnoses: AS, Depression, General & Social Anxiety
I guess I just wasn't made for these times.
- Brian Wilson

Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν
Those with power do what their power permits, while the weak have no choice but to accept it.

- Thucydides


The_Znof
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2011
Age: 51
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 616
Location: Vancouver Canada

03 Jun 2021, 6:02 pm

aghogday wrote:


.
In short, IT WON'T WORK...

MOST LEADERS WILL CONTINUE to wanna be leaders; MOST SCIENTISTS WILL DO their special interest,

mostly solo too...




mostly solo means the real scientists and not the Politicians posing as such though. :mrgreen:

Image

speaking of ignorant experts, Plato suggested Philosphers rule.



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,952

03 Jun 2021, 9:29 pm

The_Znof wrote:
aghogday wrote:


.
In short, IT WON'T WORK...

MOST LEADERS WILL CONTINUE to wanna be leaders; MOST SCIENTISTS WILL DO their special interest,

mostly solo too...




mostly solo means the real scientists and not the Politicians posing as such though. :mrgreen:

Image

speaking of ignorant experts, Plato suggested Philosphers rule.












Most of my Life, my Mind Was Described As A Computer By Others;

And in the Work Place, i Was Described As A Valuable Commodity;

What 19 Years of School, 3 Degrees, Most of the Way Through

Near to the Top of the Class, And 33 Years of Work Retiring

At Close to the Top of the Federal Standard Pay Grade Early

At Age 47; Yes, Early From What May Be Described As 'Autism Burn-out';

Yes, What That Taught

me is the Humble

Pie That i Basically

'Knew' Nothing of Value

in Life as my Poverty Was

Only Using Half A Mind; Smart

Without Art and Heart Without Art

Leaves S And M And Basically He; i Determined

To Get Really Rich And Truly THRiVE iN Life,

i Would Dance Free, i Still Do and it Works;

In Other

Words,

Dance Rules
And Now i Thrive;

My Wife Also Rules;

Which Means it's Not Necessary

For me to Do Any Adulting Now; And i Do Not..;)



_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,104
Location: The 27th Path of Peh.

04 Jun 2021, 10:03 pm

It depends what area of science. Broader systems and their integrity won't go well with maximum extraction of natural resources for widgets or millions of tons of CO2 getting pumped into the atmosphere. OTOH if you start looking at things like genetics, heritability, especially IQ, that's where science tends to go 'based' and where you get scholars chased out of positions, off stages, etc.. That last point is something that both Sam Harris and Steven Pinker have expressed concerns about publicly, ie. the stifling of discussion around it almost turns into a freebee or false credential for the far right and yields no liberal or reasonably left-of-center adjusted story as to what to do with the contents of said containers.


_________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privelege of owning yourself" - Rudyard Kipling