Soytheist - "Veganism Is A Privilege" Debunked

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Mikah
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16 Jun 2021, 6:41 pm

Should we stop other carnivorous or omnivorous animals from eating meat? Just curious. I have a very nervous looking dog next to me.


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16 Jun 2021, 6:46 pm

RushKing wrote:
Fnord wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Please provide links to the legal definitions for "Carnism" and "Speciesism", and the penalties for their practice.
The legality of an action does not necessarily determine the morality of a decision.
Ahh... but religion does, which supports my assertion that Veganism is a religion.
I need to be religious to oppose certain actions? Listen to yourself dude.
"Ethics" is what we do under certain conditions.  "Morality" is why we do it.  Religion is how we justify morality.

• Ethics: "Eat or be eaten." -- Law Of The Jungle

• Morality: "Shehitah [kosher slaughtering] must be done by means of a swift, smooth cut of a sharp knife whose blade is free of any dent or imperfection.  Shehitah entails severing the trachea and the esophagus in accordance with the oral tradition, which requires that five improper procedures be avoided, lest they invalidate the shehitah and render the animal unfit to be eaten.  They are: (a) hesitation or delay while drawing the knife, (b) excessive pressure or chopping, (c) burrowing the knife between the trachea and the esophagus or under the skin, (d) making the incision outside the specified area, and (e) laceration or tearing of the trachea or esophagus, which would result from an imperfect blade."

• Religion: "The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, ... "Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud..." -- Leviticus 11:1-3

When it comes to survival, simple ethics is good enough for me; but once you start talking about "morality", let us go only one step further and find out what God has to say about it -- all of Leviticus, chapter 11, for example.

Unless you are also an atheist.

In which case, this whole topic is pointless.


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shlaifu
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16 Jun 2021, 7:30 pm

It's questionable though where to draw the line with animals and personhood. Pigscare smart, cows are dumb but chicken seem to be more or less machinic. And what about insects?
is it okay to kill them for food? what about if you kill them without eating them? we do that with rodents and insects, but also larger animals to control their population.

and how does that measure up to a living ecosystem? if you don't look at plants individually, but at whole biomes?

you very quickly end up with Jainism, where they only eat certain parts of plants so they don't kill the plant. No root vegetables. Of course, they unknowingly eat insects and microbes with their veggies which supply them with vitamin B12. And serious Jains also try to not kill the Bacteria on their skin. So they don't wear clothing and take a towel to gently soak up sweat, rather than brutally rubbing it off.
Those are the only vegans I know that at least are trying to not draw the line arbitrarily.

Everything else is arguably arbitrary.
our current meat consumption is destroying us snd the planet, but so is an awfully large percentage of our lifestyle.
Obviously, factory farming is a different matter that deserves to be discussed seperately from eating animals as such.


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tensordyne
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16 Jun 2021, 11:06 pm

Bias detection confirmed.

Quote:
Religion: "The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, ... "Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud..." -- Leviticus 11:1-3


Thanks for looking it up. This is the cultural bias I was alluding to. It does not matter whether I argued with you to not eat any animal, or that you could eat ones without divided hoof, or anything going against your interpretation of Lev. 11:1, if you believe in the Bible, argumentation means nothing because now your diet is an article of faith.

Quote:
Unless you are also an atheist.

In which case, this whole topic is pointless.


More confirmation of bias. My take, if you have sentiments like the above, chances are valid arguments will amount to nothing and are pointless because they go against GOD! :roll:


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salad
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17 Jun 2021, 12:40 am

Why is it a sin to eat meat? Humans, like other living creatures, are a part of the circle of life and as part of the kingdom animalia and descendants of a long line of omnivores there is 0 evidence that proves eating meat in of itself is necessarily a bad thing. Theres evidence that meat eaters are less healthy than their vegetarian counterparts, evidence too much meat is bad for you, evidence that certain types of meat are less healthy, etc. but as of yet I've never seen a single reliable well conducted study that shows eating any animal product is inherently unnatural and unhealthy unconditionally. Even the studies showing meat eaters as less healthy than their vegetarian counterparts fails to take into account the sheer variability in a cohort as broad as meat eaters since the default is omnivorous diet and thus everyone to some extent eats meat unless they go out of their way to be vegan, and given such variability and the million confounding factors influencing this result theres a lot more correlation than can extrapolate to definitive causation that eating any animal product, no matter the quantity or type, is bad for you

It says something that the healthiest people on earth and the people with the record number of centenarians, Okinawans, arent vegan but omnivores. Their secret is that they eat meat in very moderate amounts, their meat is mostly lean like fish, and their diet is mostly fruits and vegetables. However where is the evidence of the Okinawans being Vegan? No evidence

If the objection to eating animal product is that it is immoral then I can understand that line of reasoning, but there has to be a frank admittance of the fact that eating animals is not comparable to slavery: slavery isnt essential to base survival whereas eating is. Eating animals provides a plethora of healthy nutrients, complete proteins and certain vitamins like B12, and even the quality of certain nutrients are higher in animal products than plants, such as the iron found in meats.


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17 Jun 2021, 8:44 am

Unless a person is a member one of the religions that prohibits eating meat, there is no "sin" in doing so.  Unless a person lives where the government has outlawed the eating of meat, there is nothing illegal about doing so.  The whole Animist/PETA/Vegan movement is an effort by worshippers of non-human animals to foist their beliefs upon the rest of us.  Nothing more.


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tensordyne
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17 Jun 2021, 11:23 am

Now we are making progress.

Quote:
Unless a person is a member one of the religions that prohibits eating meat, there is no "sin" in doing so.


That is part of the problem. When your morality comes from a book or tradition, instead of from reason and choices, you can not argue against it. In the Bible, it says you shall be able to eat such-and-such and do this, but not that -- but why? Because the book says so, and if you believe in it, no argument for or against will make any bit of difference.

Not fair!

This is a recurrent problem Vegans have when trying to talk to people about Veganism. Unstated cultural biases override any argumentation. I was actually pretty surprised when I first went Vegan how well covered the arguments for Veganism are.

Quote:
The whole Animist/PETA/Vegan movement is an effort by worshippers of non-human animals to foist their beliefs upon the rest of us. Nothing more.


You make a strong, if irrational claim, so let us address it.

I used to believe the same thing (* with caveats *). If Veganism was just about saving the animals (let us call that the PETA stance), personally, I would not be a Vegan. BTW, this is a common fallacy. Did you ever, even for a millisecond, consider the converse to the stance above? Here is the converse:

There are robust, logical and moral reasons for going Vegan, but this challenges believers in various faiths identity, so instead of owning up to reality, they deny the arguments Vegans present so they can feel better. :oops:

And also, who is worshipping animals? A lot of Vegans are Atheist, amongst other philosophies -- are you telling me they are secretly worshipping animals, or... Proof, please! :roll:

I think you are using Animist in a non-standard way??? Are you claiming Vegans are zoophilists; or are you claiming that they have a secret shamanic belief system with animal ancestors (e.g. like Native American religions, aka Animism)? :twisted: :lol:


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17 Jun 2021, 11:38 am

As stated before, the concept of "Morality" comes from religion.  Citing Morality is citing religion by proxy, even if no specific religion is stated.  Remove the concept of moral/immoral behavior from discussions of Veganism, and you may be able to convince more people, especially those of us who are tired of having "religion rammed down our throats".

Morality aside, I would be willing to try a Vegan diet again if it was enjoyable and satisfying.  By the former, I mean having meals so delicious that I actually look forward to the next one.  By the latter, I mean feeling so much better that I never look back and wish that I could eat meat again.

I am looking for a total conversion by experience alone -- no pointless debates, no morality sermons, and no guilt-trips either.

So far, however, not only have my attempts at Veganism failed to meet the criteria I mentioned above, but they have been more expensive and labor-intensive than a non-Vegan diet.  Sadly, there are no inexpensive "MacVegan" fast-food restaurants in my area, if any exist at all.


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salad
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17 Jun 2021, 11:41 am

Fnord wrote:
As stated before, the concept of "Morality" comes from religion.  Citing Morality is citing religion by proxy, even if no specific religion is stated.  Remove the concept of moral/immoral behavior from discussions of Veganism, and you may be able to convince more people, especially those of us who are tired of having "religion rammed down our throats".

Morality aside, I would be willing to try a Vegan diet again if it was enjoyable and satisfying.  By the former, I mean having meals so delicious that I actually look forward to the next one.  By the latter, I mean feeling so much better that I never look back and wish that I could eat meat again.

I am looking for a total conversion by experience alone -- no pointless debates, no morality sermons, and no guilt-trips either.

So far, however, not only have my attempts at Veganism failed to meet the criteria I mentioned above, but they have been more expensive and labor-intensive than a non-Vegan diet.  Sadly, there are no inexpensive "MacVegan" fast-food restaurants in my area, if any exist at all.


Why not then try the pasco-vegetarian diet as a middle ground? It's basically vegetarianism, so milk and eggs are allowed, but with fish added as the only source of meat as compromise since fish are healthy and with less sapience than other animals it is deemed more moral to eat.


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17 Jun 2021, 11:56 am

salad wrote:
Why not then try the pasco-vegetarian diet as a middle ground? It's basically vegetarianism, so milk and eggs are allowed, but with fish added as the only source of meat as compromise since fish are healthy and with less sapience than other animals it is deemed more moral to eat.
Because you are either Vegan or you are not.

My diet is already mostly fish, vegetables, hen's eggs, and rice -- my wife is a Filipina, and she is an excellent cook.  Asian cuisine is one of the best "liberal" or "permissive" forms of vegetarianism, and if you can stay away from things like deep-fried tofu, it is even good for your heart.


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17 Jun 2021, 12:00 pm

Fnord wrote:
Unless a person is a member one of the religions that prohibits eating meat, there is no "sin" in doing so.  Unless a person lives where the government has outlawed the eating of meat, there is nothing illegal about doing so.  The whole Animist/PETA/Vegan movement is an effort by worshippers of non-human animals to foist their beliefs upon the rest of us.  Nothing more.

Animism is not a “movement”; it is the world’s oldest religion and, with few exceptions, it does not prohibit the consumption of animal products. I am an animist because I regard all animate and inanimate beings as having a “soul”. I am vegan not because of that (otherwise I wouldn’t be eating plants, either), but because I am disgusted by eating animal flesh and bodily fluids.



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17 Jun 2021, 12:13 pm

ArtsyFarsty wrote:
... I am disgusted by eating animal flesh and bodily fluids.
Then please do not come down on me for finding the Vegan diet merely disappointing.


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17 Jun 2021, 12:23 pm

Fnord wrote:
ArtsyFarsty wrote:
... I am disgusted by eating animal flesh and bodily fluids.
Then please do not come down on me for finding the Vegan diet merely disappointing.

I haven't :scratch: . So far, all I have done was

1. Agree that ethical veganism = privilege

2. Disentangle animism from PETA and veganism, because the former has very little to do with the latter two



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17 Jun 2021, 12:28 pm

Quote:
As stated before, the concept of "Morality" comes from religion. Citing Morality is citing religion by proxy, even if no specific religion is stated. Remove the concept of moral/immoral behavior from discussions of Veganism, and you may be able to convince more people, especially those of us who are tired of having "religion rammed down our throats".


Religion means different things to different people, but insisting on morality, whatever it is, "comes from religion", is nonsense. It is also one of the hidden assumptions of most Christians, so it grates on me in a bad way. Religion, in its most common definition is belief in the supernatural as revealed truth by a prophet or magisterium. Why is such belief necessary to just talk about right versus wrong?

Whomever you are, you will make choices affecting others lives based upon your reasoning. This is the essence of morality: choices and reason. To say otherwise is to cram religion down the throats of the non-believer, and I know you are against such use of force.

Is it moral, for instance, to deny something factual? What am I allowed to have "rammed down our throats", as it were? And that feeling of ramming, it could be just as easily interpreted as a desire to resist legitimately needed change.

Quote:
Morality aside, I would be willing to try a Vegan diet again if it was enjoyable and satisfying. By the former, I mean having meals so delicious that I actually look forward to the next one. By the latter, I mean feeling so much better that I never look back and wish that I could eat meat again.


I find myself incredulous, but understanding. I live in the greater Seattle area, so I have options. If you live in Delaware, or, a lot of places, you will have a tougher time of it. Amy's makes a line of plant-based microwave meals. There are other options. Plus, when your health is on the line, quibbling about the price it takes to be healthy seems, cheap?

Rice and veggies are cheaper than meat. There are counter-claims about the "plant-based is expensive" non-starter. :mrgreen: We can talk about logistics if that is a concern.

I have no problem looking forward to my next Vegan meal. Is it possible that cultural attitudes are coloring your thinking, controlling your feelings? There are many things people eat that are Vegan that they look forward to all the time. For instance, I looked forward to Lentil soup before I was a Vegan, and still do.

Just please, for goodness’ sake, eat as little animal-based as you can, for the sake of future humans, if for no other reason. Thanks! :heart:


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17 Jun 2021, 12:34 pm

We evolved as omnivore creatures, some of us don’t want to change that.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie ... ting-scene

Actually thanks to hunting we are bipedal, bipedalism is an evolutionary advantage for hunting bigger preys, and that made us agile enough to throw spears

and thanks to eating meat we evolved big brains.


Hmm actually there’s a reason why carnivore/omnivore species are often way smarter than herbivore species.


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17 Jun 2021, 12:38 pm

Well, since you said "please" ...

:wink:

I live in Anaheim.  The last dedicated veggie restaurant within about 10 miles closed down permanently about halfway through the pandemic.  Otherwise, I have to travel about 25 miles to eat at a Hindu-run restaurant; but I have heard that some of each meal is blessed by their "gods" before they plate it up.  This bothers me, so I have not been there since before the pandemic.

Have you tried any of the "Beyond" brand?  No meat or meat products at all.  Even the heme used to provide the meat-like flavor, color, and texture is a plant extract.  I have one or two "Beyond" burgers once a week.  This gives me my burger "fix".


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