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Do you believe in Simulation Theory?
Yes - I think we are RPG (we control the character, from outside the simulation.) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Yes - I think we are all Artificial Intelligences, who only think we exist as nature creatures. 9%  9%  [ 1 ]
No - I think we exist is base reality. 91%  91%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 11

techstepgenr8tion
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16 Jun 2021, 8:43 am

Fnord wrote:
Characteristically, this "Simulation Theory" is one of those ideas -- another way to present the concept that we are all pawns in some Great Plan in the mind of the High Programmer (e.g., "God").[/color]

And if it doesn't grant 'God', Neo-like Matrix story, or big imaginary friend to glom onto then it's BS without a purpose.


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16 Jun 2021, 8:45 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Characteristically, this "Simulation Theory" is one of those ideas -- another way to present the concept that we are all pawns in some Great Plan in the mind of the High Programmer (e.g., "God").
And if it doesn't grant 'God', Neo-like Matrix story, or big imaginary friend to glom onto then it's BS without a purpose.
And if it does grant "God", then it is just another religious belief, of which we already have way more than enough.


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16 Jun 2021, 9:00 am

A final blow to the claim that we live in a computer simulation...

Christian Philosopher James Anderson wrote:
The simulation hypothesis itself is based on scientific theories and concepts derived from our experiences of the world.  It is predicated, at least in part, on what we take to be empirical scientific knowledge (what brains are and do, what computers are and do, etc.).  But if we accept the simulation hypothesis then we acquire a defeater for all of our empirical beliefs and thus for all of our scientific beliefs.  Simply put, if the simulation hypothesis is true, we can’t trust the science on which the simulation hypothesis is based, in which case it would be irrational to believe the simulation hypothesis.  It looks like the simulation hypothesis has a deeply self-defeating character to it.

Source:  Simulation Theory Debunked 

Dr. James Anderson is an ordained minister in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church.  Dr. Anderson came to RTS from Edinburgh, Scotland, and specializes in philosophical theology, religious epistemology, and Christian apologetics.  His doctoral thesis at the University of Edinburgh explored the paradoxical nature of certain Christian doctrines and the implications for the rationality of Christian faith.  His research and writing has also focused on the presuppositionalism of Cornelius Van Til, particularly his advocacy of the transcendental argument.  Before studying philosophy, Dr. Anderson also earned a Ph.D. in Computer Simulation from the University of Edinburgh.  He is a member of the Society of Christian Philosophers, the British Society for the Philosophy of Religion, and the Evangelical Philosophical Society.


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Last edited by Fnord on 16 Jun 2021, 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

sitko
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16 Jun 2021, 9:06 am

Fnord wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Characteristically, this "Simulation Theory" is one of those ideas -- another way to present the concept that we are all pawns in some Great Plan in the mind of the High Programmer (e.g., "God").
And if it doesn't grant 'God', Neo-like Matrix story, or big imaginary friend to glom onto then it's BS without a purpose.


Do we often get questions by our Sims Character? Or our Fallout Character? Why is God/Matrix/or Imaginary Sky Friend required to make something purposeful? Do all those philosophers worry about purposeful thinking?

Fnord wrote:
And if it does grant "God", then it is just another religious belief, of which we already have way more than enough.


Religion is based on faith. This is based on observation, experiments, and some intuition. Of course, we as simulated people might not be ABLE to see the hard facts that prove the Simulation Theory, it would be programmed out of us.

Many physicists/philosophers believe this theory has some merit, people like: Nick Bostrom, Rizwan Virk, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Elon Musk, Joe Rogan, (ok some of those aren't scientists.)



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16 Jun 2021, 9:14 am

As I quoted above: "Simply put, if the simulation hypothesis is true, we can't trust the science on which the simulation hypothesis is based, in which case it would be irrational to believe the simulation hypothesis. It looks like the simulation hypothesis has a deeply self-defeating character to it."

Why believe in a self-defeating religion, especially one in which none of its tenets can be irrefutably proven?


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Last edited by Fnord on 16 Jun 2021, 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

sitko
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16 Jun 2021, 9:15 am

Fnord wrote:
A final blow to the claim that we live in a computer simulation...
Christian Philosopher James Anderson wrote:
The simulation hypothesis itself is based on scientific theories and concepts derived from our experiences of the world.  It is predicated, at least in part, on what we take to be empirical scientific knowledge (what brains are and do, what computers are and do, etc.).  But if we accept the simulation hypothesis then we acquire a defeater for all of our empirical beliefs and thus for all of our scientific beliefs.  Simply put, if the simulation hypothesis is true, we can’t trust the science on which the simulation hypothesis is based, in which case it would be irrational to believe the simulation hypothesis.  It looks like the simulation hypothesis has a deeply self-defeating character to it.

Source:  Simulation Theory Debunked 


Have you heard of Unity? It's a game programming library. In it is a "Physics Engine". Simulations would have rules just like reality has rules. But, it might cause us to re-think some science, sure.

I don't think this line is based on anything other than this person's opinion:
"But if we accept the simulation hypothesis then we acquire a defeater for all of our empirical beliefs and thus for all of our scientific beliefs."
Why? Our beliefs are based on our experiments in our reality, either real or simulated. That fact that they work so well, in what we see and experience, makes me think that we don't have a defeater of science. Our science is based on the rules of our reality.



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16 Jun 2021, 9:18 am

You are basing your beliefs on computer games and ... your own beliefs!

Where are the practical demonstrations of your beliefs?


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Last edited by Fnord on 16 Jun 2021, 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

sitko
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16 Jun 2021, 9:18 am

Fnord wrote:
[/color=black]As I quoted above: "Simply put, if the simulation hypothesis is true, we can't trust the science on which the simulation hypothesis is based, in which case it would be irrational to believe the simulation hypothesis. It looks like the simulation hypothesis has a deeply self-defeating character to it."

Why believe in a self-defeating religion, especially one in which none of its tenets can be irrefutably proven?[/color]


It's not a religion. A religion is based on faith. Simulation Theory is based on our experiments, observations and intuition. Am I repeating myself? Why do you keep repeating the same argument?

I looked at your "source" It's a religious nut. (that might be harsh) Not a scientist or philosopher. Here is his "about" from his blog website:

"Parker’s Penseés is a blog by me (Parker Settecase) dedicated to my thoughts. God woke me up in 2013 and gave me a deep hunger for wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. As I read I found I had lots of thoughts to share; so I started this blog in 2016. Currently I’m working on a masters in theological studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. As I continue to read and learn, I’ll continue to share my thoughts with you. I have another blog called What Then Shall I Read where you can see my thoughts on various books I’ve read. Enjoy your stay!"



Last edited by sitko on 16 Jun 2021, 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

techstepgenr8tion
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16 Jun 2021, 9:20 am

sitko wrote:
Fnord wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Characteristically, this "Simulation Theory" is one of those ideas -- another way to present the concept that we are all pawns in some Great Plan in the mind of the High Programmer (e.g., "God").
And if it doesn't grant 'God', Neo-like Matrix story, or big imaginary friend to glom onto then it's BS without a purpose.


Do we often get questions by our Sims Character? Or our Fallout Character? Why is God/Matrix/or Imaginary Sky Friend required to make something purposeful? Do all those philosophers worry about purposeful thinking?

I think you might have taken my purpose for saying that too literally.


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16 Jun 2021, 9:21 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think you might have taken my purpose for saying that too literally.


I take EVERYTHING too literally. That's part of my autism. Ideally, we would use "/s" at the end of "jokes"...



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16 Jun 2021, 9:26 am

sitko wrote:
Fnord wrote:
As I quoted above: "Simply put, if the simulation hypothesis is true, we can't trust the science on which the simulation hypothesis is based, in which case it would be irrational to believe the simulation hypothesis. It looks like the simulation hypothesis has a deeply self-defeating character to it."Why believe in a self-defeating religion, especially one in which none of its tenets can be irrefutably proven?"
It's not a religion. A religion is based on faith. Simulation Theory is based on our experiments, observations and intuition.
WHAT experiments and observations?  Intuition proves nothing.

Without proof, your hypothesis is based on faith -- it is a religion.
sitko wrote:
I looked at your "source" It's a religious nut. (that might be harsh) Not a scientist or philosopher...
He has a PhD.  What is YOUR claim to fame?


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16 Jun 2021, 9:49 am

Fnord wrote:
Mere belief proves nothing.





Let me Do my Best to Put This In Terms You May Not Understand;

Yet, I'll Give it A Try in "Plain English"; Best i Can And Will

As Existential Intelligence Is More the Purview

of Poetry Than Science...

THE ESSENCE OF BELIEF

IS WHAT THE FORM OF 'SUGAR PILL' HOUSES...

This is no Simulation Theory, it is Real For those
Who Reap The Cause and Effect, Real Benefits too....

A Clue is MaKinG All of Life A 'Sugar Pill' At Essence of Belief...

Perhaps it might even Open Your Mind A Bit Ascending Transcending

A Bit Past Your 'Neo Cortical Part of Conscious Existence' to Not Live

In Such A Left Brain Metaphor Restricted Measure of Existence; True,

iMaGiNE

A Place

With No

Distance, Space,

Time or Matter;

Better

Yet

BREaTHE Free Eternally

Now; Make it All A Sugar Pill At

Essence; Sow Every Word A Song;

Sow Every Step A Dance; And Perhaps

You'll Reap All the SMiLes You Meet And

Greet in Life Same And Different as We All Are Now...

Anyway As Far As Simulation Theory Goes; Minds Much Greater

Than Ours in Science Like Neil DeGrasse Tyson Entertain the Possibility

That That is Part of Reality too; In Other Words, He has iMaGiNaTioN Too...

Hey,

i Didn't

Always Have

It Either; Just like

You, At one Point i Scored

A 195 on the Aspie Quiz too...

And 45 on the AQ Scan As Opposed

to Relatively Speaking, 92 and 11 Now;

What this Means, Whether You Have the ability

to See it or not, is i Expand my Human Potential

Exponentially As i Still Have All the Knowledge Crystalized

Before to Go Along With The Fluid Intelligence in Flow that Comes So Easily Now...

Bottom Lines

Baby is

i Make

The MaGiC of

SMiLes Come to

Those Who Exercise

More of their Human Intelligence,

Existentially SPeaKinG So; i've Been

Observing You Long As Well As All the

Others Here; Not Much Has Changed it Seems

With You; Yet Others Continue to Evolve; Ask Your Self Why,

Or Not;

That's Up to

You as Far as i Feel

And Sense, it's Never too

Late to Make The Concrete A River of Heavenow;

Remember (or not) i have Close to A Photographic Memory

For Text; i remember Your Views of Jesus Actually Being Real

According to Story As Written; However, it Seems You Don't Have

What it takes to Defend The 'Magic Sugar Pills' You BeLiEVE iN Life...

i Personally See that As 'Weak'; You May Look At it Whatever Way You So Wilt...

Other than That According

to What You've Stated

You Believed in, in the

Past, The Dude Yeshua for

Real Never Had a Pen, or A Blog,

So We Will Never Know What He Actually Said or Did...

Like You Profess, Mere Belief Proves Nothing; Yet Only

Relatively Failing, When It's Just Empty Shells of Words With No Essence...

And to Be Clear, The Essence of Belief is the Synergy of All Our Mind; The Vibrations, Frequencies The

Energy; Yes the Feelings, The Senses, That Combine to Make Our Existence Real Now And Improving At Best...

If Ya Wanna

Materially

Reduce it

to Terms like

Serotonin, Dopamine,
Oxytocin, And Epinephrine

You May Do That As Well;

Yet It's Not Necessary at All

When One Employs Intuition

From Evolved Innate Instincts

More Like An ENFP Than

An INTJ As True

The Second

Was my Personality

Before too; True, Those Personality

Tests Are Antiquated too; yet still i move

Around them All With Ease As Need Be with Relative Free

Will In Zen of Ego too As Art; Oh Lord Horatio And Ripley Believe

It or not; You Are Not Seeing Bigger Pictures of Existential Intelligences Now

From What i Observe at least, As An All Volunteer Participant, Anthropology Observer;

And Don't Get Me Wrong, If You Can And Will; Your Rational Intellect is of Great Value When it comes to Keeping

the Measures of Science in The Discussions Here; it's Just that You Are Not Bringing A Balance into A Larger Picture

of Art in smART

And Art

in

HeART Now

It Seems to me;

iMaGiNE SMiLinG
Ecstatically With

1000's of Beautiful

Women Just Bringing

(Reaching 60 Years-Old)

Smiles to them From An

Act of Art With No Words,

Just Dance; You See It's Not Always

The Intellect of Words That Makes Heaven Real Now...

The Essence is Within; Otherwise, Just Empty Shells of Words And Human Beings Same And Different...

Perhaps, It's Difficult For You to Understand; Yet A Song And A Dance From Soul is the Essence of BELieVE NoW...

And To Be Clear, Soul is What We Feel and Sense Beyond the Form of Empty Shells of Words And Human Beings Same...

Science Does Not Adequately

Measure Our Inner

UNiVERSE

As It's Always

Changing Now;

Impossible to

Do Through that

Old Tool That Measures

Buildings of Human Yet
Not Synergy of Soul All Flesh and Blood Energy Now...

i For one Am Very Satisfied With The Programmer of This Simulation For Real; Hint: me.

And Other than That Our Philosophies At Core Are Most Often Ruled With How We FeeL and

Sense Within; My Cup Is OverFLoWinG Through DarK And LiGHT; i Co-Create my Reality With Relative Free Will

As i Keep the Boot Camp Up Here; And the Other Place More Like Heaven Down With the Souls in India More;

Whatever Works...

(For You too)

-All

Thumbs Up!

-me



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16 Jun 2021, 9:51 am

Ordinary English, please?


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Udinaas
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16 Jun 2021, 10:05 am

Fnord wrote:
A final blow to the claim that we live in a computer simulation...
Christian Philosopher James Anderson wrote:
The simulation hypothesis itself is based on scientific theories and concepts derived from our experiences of the world.  It is predicated, at least in part, on what we take to be empirical scientific knowledge (what brains are and do, what computers are and do, etc.).  But if we accept the simulation hypothesis then we acquire a defeater for all of our empirical beliefs and thus for all of our scientific beliefs.  Simply put, if the simulation hypothesis is true, we can’t trust the science on which the simulation hypothesis is based, in which case it would be irrational to believe the simulation hypothesis.  It looks like the simulation hypothesis has a deeply self-defeating character to it.

Source:  Simulation Theory Debunked 

Dr. James Anderson is an ordained minister in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church.  Dr. Anderson came to RTS from Edinburgh, Scotland, and specializes in philosophical theology, religious epistemology, and Christian apologetics.  His doctoral thesis at the University of Edinburgh explored the paradoxical nature of certain Christian doctrines and the implications for the rationality of Christian faith.  His research and writing has also focused on the presuppositionalism of Cornelius Van Til, particularly his advocacy of the transcendental argument.  Before studying philosophy, Dr. Anderson also earned a Ph.D. in Computer Simulation from the University of Edinburgh.  He is a member of the Society of Christian Philosophers, the British Society for the Philosophy of Religion, and the Evangelical Philosophical Society.

This is a worse argument than the ones in favor of a simulation. If we live in a simulation with consistent rules, our experiences could be a reliable source of knowledge about the contents of said simulation. Science doesn't need to presuppose that what we observe is the base reality, only that it behaves in predictable ways.



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16 Jun 2021, 10:13 am

Fnord wrote:
Ordinary English, please?





It's Worth Noting, to Others At

Least That i am 'Extraordinary';

That Seems to Be The Issue At Core Here...

Sorry, my FRiEnD;

Can Not

Will

Not

Bring

Myself

Down to 'Your

Level' And Explain this;

How Will Someone View

A Reality They Have No Way to 'See' for Now;

Like i said, i Gave it a Shot; Others May Reap A Greater Benefit...

You Just

Provided

A Bit of

'Dark' Muse

Sadly For What

You Seem Not to Be Able to 'See'...

Yet It's True; i Earned This, It Was
Not Given to me by anyone else either...

If 'This' Is a Simulation Theory; It IS A Rather 'Poor Attempt', Overall, now;

It Appears to me at Least, THeRE is Room For Improvement For Whatever 'God(S)' Exists now...



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16 Jun 2021, 10:21 am

Udinaas wrote:
... If we live in a simulation with consistent rules, our experiences could be a reliable source of knowledge about the contents of said simulation...
No, if we "live" in a simulation, our experiences and our knowledge -- heck, our entire history -- could just as easily be implanted into our memories, and be only as reliable for us as the programmers want them to be.

Informing the participants that they are part of a simulation -- even by accident -- influences the outcome of the simulation.


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