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Do you believe in Simulation Theory?
Yes - I think we are RPG (we control the character, from outside the simulation.) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Yes - I think we are all Artificial Intelligences, who only think we exist as nature creatures. 9%  9%  [ 1 ]
No - I think we exist is base reality. 91%  91%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 11

Fnord
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15 Jun 2021, 3:17 pm

sitko wrote:
... Here's a good video that goes through these points a bit as well...
https://youtu.be/I_KJKEYoaoo
Never let YouTube do your thinking for you.


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sitko
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15 Jun 2021, 3:30 pm

Evidence: The Wigner's Friend experiment.

I watched this video by an author of the book "Simulation Hypothesis" by Rizwan Virk. I recommend it as well:
https://youtu.be/UHlfe2HE_gQ


In it he referenced a famous thought experiment called "Wigner's Friend". This thought experiment was actually completed in Vienna and the result are another bit of evidence that shows reality is NOT objective.

Here is an article:
https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/03/12/136684/a-quantum-experiment-suggests-theres-no-such-thing-as-objective-reality/



Last edited by sitko on 15 Jun 2021, 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sitko
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15 Jun 2021, 3:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
sitko wrote:
... Here's a good video that goes through these points a bit as well...
https://youtu.be/I_KJKEYoaoo
Never let YouTube do your thinking for you.


I'm not, I like watching videos, it's a resource.



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15 Jun 2021, 7:10 pm

Still no proof of simulation.  Does no one believe in the Scientific Method anymore?


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techstepgenr8tion
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15 Jun 2021, 7:15 pm

sitko wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I often find myself listening to a lot of the NDE accounts and stuck in a bit of a bind.


NDE?


VegetableMan wrote:
NDE is an abbreviation for near death experience.


Apologies, what he said ^^.

sitko wrote:
I started to think that perhaps you were just trying to make this more complex than it is. Or you presenting a lot of information without explaining to us stupid people very well...can you elaborate? Because there's tons of names at the end of your missive, which makes me think I could look up their work, if interest was there...

Or I might have to say that I'm an atrocious communicator at times.

I believe that our world is absolutely saturated in Darwinian game theory, almost to the point where little else can matter. I don't know if you've listened to Donald Hoffman's lectures at all on truth vs. fitness payouts or read / listened to his book 'The Case Against Reality' - he seems to be absolutely right about what 'this place' and the rules are.

What bothers me about near death experiences, and so much of what seems to come through as mediumship or channeled messages, essentially tells us the same thing - about a cosmos that's infinite love. It doesn't map onto this world at all. That's why I said above - it seems much more congruent to ridicule these ideas as fantasies of weak or whimsical people, until or unless you have enough experiences that force you to contend with the idea that it's real. Taking it then that it's real, and taking the likelihood that the data on reincarnation is accurate, we're either in a situation where a) literally everything is lying to us all of the time and the goal is to wring out energy, attention, whatever 'it' or 'they' can scavenge off of us to feed themselves, or b) if 'heaven', devachan, bardo, or anything like that is real then it's what one could call a cooperative supercluster. You'd use that terminology because that sort of bliss or peace lacks something - Darwinian game theory and evolutionary competition.

The question - is there really an 'outside' to this which is absolutely nothing like the world we live in, or is it all lies and it's evolutionary game theory all the way through? Admittedly it's really difficult to imagine what principals a world could run on where everything isn't a Darwinian fitness game where one's perpetually fighting for their right to exist. With that in mind the whole NDE phenomena is either a) the other side trying to help us around a particular bend in evolution where exponential technology could cause extinction, hard reset, etc. in the next few centuries or b) it's predators who don't know how not to over-farm their prey, in which case all the woo keeps going until we drive ourselves extinct and then when we die it runs out of things, at least on earth, to feed off of. On some level, like most people, I'd hope there's at least some a) but I don't know that for certain, and the pessimist in me considers that we had the WWI, WWII, holocaust, Stalin's regime, Mao's regime, Unit 731, Khmer Rouge, the only thing that changed was our capacity to end it all with nuclear weapons. To that end I find myself reading John Gray, Lev Shestov, etc. right along with the other stuff because we're really in a ghastly / macabre world where - to the best I can tell - it almost seems like this reality is a generator function for making and uplifting psychopaths. Very little of this adds up in any sane manner.


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15 Jun 2021, 8:53 pm

Quote:
In physics, the observer effect is the disturbance of an observed system by the act of observation.[1] [2] This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner. A common example is checking the pressure in an automobile tire; this is difficult to do without letting out some of the air, thus changing the pressure. Similarly, it is not possible to see any object without light hitting the object, and causing it to reflect that light. While the effects of observation are often negligible, the object still experiences a change. This effect can be found in many domains of physics, but can usually be reduced to insignificance by using different instruments or observation techniques.

An especially unusual version of the observer effect occurs in quantum mechanics, as best demonstrated by the double-slit experiment. Physicists have found that even passive observation of quantum phenomena (by changing the test apparatus and passively "ruling out" all but one possibility) can actually change the measured result. Despite the "observer" in this experiment being an electronic detector—possibly due to the assumption that the word "observer" implies a person—its results have led to the popular belief that a conscious mind can directly affect reality.[3] The need for the "observer" to be conscious is not supported by scientific research, and has been pointed out as a misconception rooted in a poor understanding of the quantum wave function ψ and the quantum measurement process,[4][5][6] apparently being the generation of information at its most basic level that produces the effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)



sitko
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15 Jun 2021, 9:15 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Or more accurately "turtles all of the way UP".


The video above that I said this video explains a lot, even had a "joke" picture, of the Earth sitting on a stack of turtles...



sitko
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15 Jun 2021, 9:17 pm

Fnord wrote:
Still no proof of simulation.  Does no one believe in the Scientific Method anymore?

It's not falsifiable. But, there are many examples that point toward reality not being a base reality but a simulated reality. People here don't really "discuss" things do they, I posted a thing that I hoped would engage other users to maybe discuss this, and you guys, just reply "Nope!"

Not much of a discussion...



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15 Jun 2021, 9:43 pm

For things that we know almost nothing about (like the origins of the universe), there's no clear line between valid abductive argument and making thing up. This reminds me of the probabilistic arguments for god. Simulation theory is better than theism in some ways such as avoiding absurdities like timeless minds but there's not nearly enough evidence, especially for a top-down version like the matrix.

Even if the observer effect were mind-dependent a much simpler explanation than a grand theory like a simulation would be that the phenomena and noumena are much further apart on a quantum scale than on the one we normally perceive, since the quantum scale is not the one our minds evolved to observe.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant ... /#PhenNoum



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15 Jun 2021, 10:05 pm

sitko wrote:
eople here don't really "discuss" things do they, I posted a thing that I hoped would engage other users to maybe discuss this, and you guys, just reply "Nope!"

Not much of a discussion...

It's the same pattern I pretty much see anywhere. Get an discussion of much of anything abstract going (it can even be something as mundane as Bayesian inference), get the attention of the self-appointed morality or rationality police (someone operating from concrete operational mode for life who sees abstract reasoning and exploration as a character flaw), and the whistles, yellow cards, and citations come out.


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techstepgenr8tion
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15 Jun 2021, 10:09 pm

Udinaas wrote:
For things that we know almost nothing about (like the origins of the universe), there's no clear line between valid abductive argument and making thing up. This reminds me of the probabilistic arguments for god. Simulation theory is better than theism in some ways such as avoiding absurdities like timeless minds but there's not nearly enough evidence, especially for a top-down version like the matrix.

It's also possible that there isn't really a base reality to speak of. Something I posted a while back that appeared as a BigThink article: https://bigthink.com/surprising-science ... -existence


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16 Jun 2021, 4:11 am

sitko wrote:
Hi,

I believe in simulation theory, that we are either NPCs or RPGs, in our reality.

I'll present my bits of evidence in replies, and feel free to add your two cents...

Note: You WILL be able to change your vote in the poll, after I've convinced you.

I look forward to your thoughts, ideas and questions.


So...youre saying that we are all either "rocket propelled grenades", or that we are all members of "the National Press Corp"? :lol:



sitko
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16 Jun 2021, 7:11 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
It's the same pattern I pretty much see anywhere. Get an discussion of much of anything abstract going (it can even be something as mundane as Bayesian inference), get the attention of the self-appointed morality or rationality police (someone operating from concrete operational mode for life who sees abstract reasoning and exploration as a character flaw), and the whistles, yellow cards, and citations come out.


Well, I must say, you sir, are a good discussion person. Now, if I could just understand what your saying.

I think I'll try to paraphase what you said:
People all over, judge discussion topics because instead of having a good discussion they prefer to just "dis" people.

That's one reason, I've been trying to find Wrong Planet. This Judgy behavior is what the NTs do. I just find it remarkable that some autistics will treat other autistics the same way that NTs treat autistics. Maybe they learned the bad habits from them.



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16 Jun 2021, 7:17 am

naturalplastic wrote:
So...youre saying that we are all either "rocket propelled grenades", or that we are all members of "the National Press Corp"? :lol:


Oh, I apologize, I just assumed everyone here knew what RPG and NPC stood for, here you go:

RPG - Role Playing Game, these are games like Skyrim, Fallout, Dungeons & Dragons. In these games, the player (a human) drives a Player Character (Avatar) inside the game, the thoughts/ideas of the Player Character come directly from the Playing Human (outside the simulation).

NPC - Non-Player Character - In RPGs, anytime you see a character who isn't controlled by someone outside of the simulation, it is a non-player character. The idea here, is that instead of people in the simulation being controlled by an entity outside of the simulation, they are instead part of the simulation, and created of 1s and 0s. They "Think" that they are real, because of "I think therefore I am".



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16 Jun 2021, 7:32 am

It could be possible that lines of code in a computer program have some sort of sentience that we can't even begin to fathom. We'd have no way of knowing. If the same is true for us, then the creators of this simulation might not even be aware that we exist or have consciousness. In that scenario, this world isn't a video game, rather an accidental creation of "life." Perhaps this is why life as we know it could be seen as meaningless, we weren't created to have purpose.

Maybe outerspace and planets are actually the lines of code in this simulation, with the universe being some sort of program. Any "life" that came about on planets was unintentional, possibly unnoticed, and we exist by a programming fluke intended to make the planets operate better.



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16 Jun 2021, 8:25 am

sitko wrote:
... People here don't really "discuss" things do they, I posted a thing that I hoped would engage other users to maybe discuss this, and you guys, just reply "Nope!"  Not much of a discussion...
If it is a discussion you want, then choose a topic that is more about physical reality than metaphysical philosophy.

Some people see a pseudo-scientific idea they like and latch on to it as if it was the most profound idea ever written, not realizing that it is just another Heaven-And-Earth story updated with a few scientific-sounding buzzwords to make it seem plausible.

Characteristically, this "Simulation Theory" is one of those ideas -- another way to present the concept that we are all pawns in some Great Plan in the mind of the High Programmer (e.g., "God").


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