Charges against Israeli cop - Killing Autistic Palestinian

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funeralxempire
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21 Jun 2021, 7:43 am

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Two groups of people are making claims to the same portion of land, it's not agreeable but it's not surprising that members of both communities and supporters of both are likely to include people who refuse to compromise so it's almost inevitable that within both factions people who might condone ethnic cleansing exist.

I don't believe the creation of Israel justified pogroms aimed at Middle Eastern Jews, I'd argue that that behaviour ended up harming sympathy for the Palestinian people while contributing nothing to their cause.

I also don't believe that European antisemitism is a justification for driving the Palestinian people from their homelands just because the Jewish people once lived there. Among things it sets a questionable legal precedent, if the Jewish people are entitled to use terrorism to retake a homeland they've largely been unable to control for over a millennium, why can't other people? The UN made a mistake by condoning the terrorism that established Israel but that issue can't really be revisited.

What can be done is to have the international community start to value Palestinian civilian lives as much as Israeli civilian lives and start to impose actual penalties on Israel for human rights abuses just like would be done with other regimes.


Jews face ethnic cleansing in the Middle East. The truth is it is nearly complete and outside of Israel there are no Jews left. From Cairo to Karachi, synagogues have been burnt to the ground and all Jews killed or force out. Jews protecting themselves in the only place left in the Middle East were they survive today isn't "terrorism." The UN used to "condone" Jews defending themselves with lethal force in the face of genocide. Today many "condone" the genocide against Jews and justify it by calling the Jews "terrorists."


Yes, there was a strong hostile reaction to the creation of Israel by the UN. You're describing the reaction and trying to insist the reaction caused the action.


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Daddy63
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21 Jun 2021, 8:23 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Two groups of people are making claims to the same portion of land, it's not agreeable but it's not surprising that members of both communities and supporters of both are likely to include people who refuse to compromise so it's almost inevitable that within both factions people who might condone ethnic cleansing exist.

I don't believe the creation of Israel justified pogroms aimed at Middle Eastern Jews, I'd argue that that behaviour ended up harming sympathy for the Palestinian people while contributing nothing to their cause.

I also don't believe that European antisemitism is a justification for driving the Palestinian people from their homelands just because the Jewish people once lived there. Among things it sets a questionable legal precedent, if the Jewish people are entitled to use terrorism to retake a homeland they've largely been unable to control for over a millennium, why can't other people? The UN made a mistake by condoning the terrorism that established Israel but that issue can't really be revisited.

What can be done is to have the international community start to value Palestinian civilian lives as much as Israeli civilian lives and start to impose actual penalties on Israel for human rights abuses just like would be done with other regimes.


Jews face ethnic cleansing in the Middle East. The truth is it is nearly complete and outside of Israel there are no Jews left. From Cairo to Karachi, synagogues have been burnt to the ground and all Jews killed or force out. Jews protecting themselves in the only place left in the Middle East were they survive today isn't "terrorism." The UN used to "condone" Jews defending themselves with lethal force in the face of genocide. Today many "condone" the genocide against Jews and justify it by calling the Jews "terrorists."


Yes, there was a strong hostile reaction to the creation of Israel by the UN. You're describing the reaction and trying to insist the reaction caused the action.


The strong negative reaction to Jews returning to the Middle East happened way before the reformation of Israel as a nation. Under the British mandate of Palestine hundreds of thousands of Jews were able to initial return but by about 1930 resentment and continuous violence in Palestine forced the virtual end of Jews returning.

I actually believe the opposite. Antisemitism triggered the ethnic cleansing of Jews. It wasn't some reaction to Jews returning to Israel/Palestine. That's a fabricated excuse to kill Jews.



funeralxempire
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21 Jun 2021, 9:01 am

Daddy63 wrote:
The strong negative reaction to Jews returning to the Middle East happened way before the reformation of Israel as a nation. Under the British mandate of Palestine hundreds of thousands of Jews were able to initial return but by about 1930 resentment and continuous violence in Palestine forced the virtual end of Jews returning.


Are we pretending that Zionist violence had nothing to do with that resentment? Did that resentment exist in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq or Iran like it did after the creation of Israel?

You're still claiming the action was caused by the reaction.


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21 Jun 2021, 9:34 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
The strong negative reaction to Jews returning to the Middle East happened way before the reformation of Israel as a nation. Under the British mandate of Palestine hundreds of thousands of Jews were able to initial return but by about 1930 resentment and continuous violence in Palestine forced the virtual end of Jews returning.


Are we pretending that Zionist violence had nothing to do with that resentment? Did that resentment exist in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq or Iran like it did after the creation of Israel?

You're still claiming the action was caused by the reaction.


Not at all. It seems like you fall on the side of believing the resentment created the anti-semitism which lead to the genocide of Jews. Isn't it kind of like saying the Jews deserved it? Isn't that what Hitler said too? It was the Jews' fault?



funeralxempire
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21 Jun 2021, 9:38 am

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
The strong negative reaction to Jews returning to the Middle East happened way before the reformation of Israel as a nation. Under the British mandate of Palestine hundreds of thousands of Jews were able to initial return but by about 1930 resentment and continuous violence in Palestine forced the virtual end of Jews returning.


Are we pretending that Zionist violence had nothing to do with that resentment? Did that resentment exist in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq or Iran like it did after the creation of Israel?

You're still claiming the action was caused by the reaction.


Not at all. It seems like you fall on the side of believing the resentment created the anti-semitism which lead to the genocide of Jews. Isn't it kind of like saying the Jews deserved it? Isn't that what Hitler said too? It was the Jews' fault?


Saying that an act made resentment worse is not saying that genocide was an appropriate response to that resentment and it's revolting that you'd resort to implying I said such a thing, but I'll accept that as you conceding you didn't have any honest point to make.


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21 Jun 2021, 9:47 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
The strong negative reaction to Jews returning to the Middle East happened way before the reformation of Israel as a nation. Under the British mandate of Palestine hundreds of thousands of Jews were able to initial return but by about 1930 resentment and continuous violence in Palestine forced the virtual end of Jews returning.


Are we pretending that Zionist violence had nothing to do with that resentment? Did that resentment exist in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq or Iran like it did after the creation of Israel?

You're still claiming the action was caused by the reaction.


Not at all. It seems like you fall on the side of believing the resentment created the anti-semitism which lead to the genocide of Jews. Isn't it kind of like saying the Jews deserved it? Isn't that what Hitler said too? It was the Jews' fault?


Saying that an act made resentment worse is not saying that genocide was an appropriate response to that resentment and it's revolting that you'd resort to implying I said such a thing, but I'll accept that as you conceding you didn't have any honest point to make.


So you are back again saying that the ethnic cleansing of Jews was a reaction triggered by resentment to Jews returning to their homeland and the creation of Israel. Maybe it was just the catalyst that pushed things over the edge in areas with underlying anti-Semitism?

I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm just trying to follow the logic. Regardless of the reason, ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East is basically complete outside Israel.



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21 Jun 2021, 9:59 am

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
The strong negative reaction to Jews returning to the Middle East happened way before the reformation of Israel as a nation. Under the British mandate of Palestine hundreds of thousands of Jews were able to initial return but by about 1930 resentment and continuous violence in Palestine forced the virtual end of Jews returning.


Are we pretending that Zionist violence had nothing to do with that resentment? Did that resentment exist in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq or Iran like it did after the creation of Israel?

You're still claiming the action was caused by the reaction.


Not at all. It seems like you fall on the side of believing the resentment created the anti-semitism which lead to the genocide of Jews. Isn't it kind of like saying the Jews deserved it? Isn't that what Hitler said too? It was the Jews' fault?


Saying that an act made resentment worse is not saying that genocide was an appropriate response to that resentment and it's revolting that you'd resort to implying I said such a thing, but I'll accept that as you conceding you didn't have any honest point to make.


So you are back again saying that the ethnic cleansing of Jews was a reaction triggered by resentment to Jews returning to their homeland and the creation of Israel. Maybe it was just the catalyst that pushed things over the edge in areas with underlying anti-Semitism?

I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm just trying to follow the logic. Regardless of the reason, ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East is basically complete outside Israel.


Antisemitism has been common throughout the entire Christian and Muslim world and some of those attitudes likely even predate either of those religions.

With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.

I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).

Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.

I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.


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21 Jun 2021, 11:34 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Antisemitism has been common throughout the entire Christian and Muslim world and some of those attitudes likely even predate either of those religions.

With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.

I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).

Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.

I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.


Does pointing out past tolerance of Jews people or the lack of tolerance in Europe historically justify modern ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East? Does it make it less bad? I'm not sure what the point of stating that is. It's similar to argument that resentment over the formation of Israel justifies ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel and elsewhere.



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21 Jun 2021, 12:06 pm

Israel is a racist state

Israel is a terrorist state

Anti-Zionism is NOT Anti-Semiism

Supporting Israel supporting the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, who are themselves Semitic, therefore supporting Isrsel makes one Anti-Semitic

See, I can play word games too.


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21 Jun 2021, 12:16 pm

Anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism in my opinion. It's just a weak, Hitleresque attempt to justify ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East.

It's like saying the Jews deserve or are asking for genocide simply because they want to live in their homeland.



funeralxempire
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21 Jun 2021, 12:17 pm

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Antisemitism has been common throughout the entire Christian and Muslim world and some of those attitudes likely even predate either of those religions.

With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.

I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).

Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.

I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.


Does pointing out past tolerance of Jews people or the lack of tolerance in Europe historically justify modern ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East? Does it make it less bad? I'm not sure what the point of stating that is. It's similar to argument that resentment over the formation of Israel justifies ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel and elsewhere.



The violent actions of states against the Jewish people really don't amount to a justification of genocidal actions by the Israeli state. The policies of Iraq or Egypt several regimes ago don't justify exterminating the Palestinian people.

I described the history of antisemitism to suggest that just because it is currently an issue that there's no reason attitudes can't just much like they have in Europe. That doesn't mean that Europe is free of antisemitism, but certainly support for violent expressions of it isn't like it once was. Reconciliation and better relations are possible but it's not unreasonable for their neighbours to consider ethnic cleansing a deal-breaker for good relations.

You keep trying to suggest that I'm making excuses for genocide when only one of us is openly supporting a state that engages in genocidal actions.


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funeralxempire
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21 Jun 2021, 12:19 pm

Daddy63 wrote:
Anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism in my opinion. It's just a weak, Hitleresque attempt to justify ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East.

It's like saying the Jews deserve or are asking for genocide simply because they want to live in their homeland.


Supporting Zionists stealing the Palestinian homeland is like saying the Palestinians deserve or are asking for genocide simply because they want to not be removed from their homeland to make room for colonial settlers.

Imagine if indigenous Americans decided they were entitled to exterminate all of the people living on our homelands to reestablish our homelands as ethno-states. If Israel can, why can't we? :chin:


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21 Jun 2021, 12:22 pm

Did Daddy63 just say Anti-Zionism is worse than Anti-Semitism and that its Hitleresque to be Anti-Zionist???

That's it I'm screenshotting this BS and sending it to the Palestinian instagram. Daddy63 prepare to be famous on an instagram group of millions of people mocking this BS. When comments reach that level of stupid I'm not even going to waste time arguing. Screenshotting and having a good laugh is my new strategy for dealing with this


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21 Jun 2021, 12:24 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Antisemitism has been common throughout the entire Christian and Muslim world and some of those attitudes likely even predate either of those religions.

With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.

I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).

Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.

I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.


Does pointing out past tolerance of Jews people or the lack of tolerance in Europe historically justify modern ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East? Does it make it less bad? I'm not sure what the point of stating that is. It's similar to argument that resentment over the formation of Israel justifies ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel and elsewhere.



The violent actions of states against the Jewish people really don't amount to a justification of genocidal actions by the Israeli state. The policies of Iraq or Egypt several regimes ago don't justify exterminating the Palestinian people.

I described the history of antisemitism to suggest that just because it is currently an issue that there's no reason attitudes can't just much like they have in Europe. That doesn't mean that Europe is free of antisemitism, but certainly support for violent expressions of it isn't like it once was. Reconciliation and better relations are possible but it's not unreasonable for their neighbours to consider ethnic cleansing a deal-breaker for good relations.

You keep trying to suggest that I'm making excuses for genocide when only one of us is openly supporting a state that engages in genocidal actions.


Protecting Jewish people in the face of ethnic cleansing in the Middle East isn't a genocidal action. Targeting and systematically removing an entire ethnicity of people from region or country is ethnic cleansing and that's exactly what happened to Jews in the Middle East and it explains why there are none left outside of Israel.

You seem to want to blame the Jews for defending themselves in the face of this ongoing genocide when they themselves are the target of that ongoing genocide. The logic is difficult to comprehend.



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21 Jun 2021, 12:26 pm

salad wrote:
Did Daddy63 just say Anti-Zionism is worse than Anti-Semitism and that its Hitleresque to be Anti-Zionist???

That's it I'm screenshotting this BS and sending it to the Palestinian instagram. Daddy63 prepare to be famous on an instagram group of millions of people mocking this BS. When comments reach that level of stupid I'm not even going to waste time arguing. Screenshotting and having a good laugh is my new strategy for dealing with this


Yes. When Jews are blamed for defending themselves in the face this ongoing genocide in the Middle East, it's Hitleresque and much worse than standard Anti-Semitism.



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21 Jun 2021, 12:28 pm

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Antisemitism has been common throughout the entire Christian and Muslim world and some of those attitudes likely even predate either of those religions.

With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.

I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).

Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.

I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.


Does pointing out past tolerance of Jews people or the lack of tolerance in Europe historically justify modern ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East? Does it make it less bad? I'm not sure what the point of stating that is. It's similar to argument that resentment over the formation of Israel justifies ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel and elsewhere.



The violent actions of states against the Jewish people really don't amount to a justification of genocidal actions by the Israeli state. The policies of Iraq or Egypt several regimes ago don't justify exterminating the Palestinian people.

I described the history of antisemitism to suggest that just because it is currently an issue that there's no reason attitudes can't just much like they have in Europe. That doesn't mean that Europe is free of antisemitism, but certainly support for violent expressions of it isn't like it once was. Reconciliation and better relations are possible but it's not unreasonable for their neighbours to consider ethnic cleansing a deal-breaker for good relations.

You keep trying to suggest that I'm making excuses for genocide when only one of us is openly supporting a state that engages in genocidal actions.


Protecting Jewish people in the face of ethnic cleansing in the Middle East isn't a genocidal action. Targeting and systematically removing an entire ethnicity of people from region or country is ethnic cleansing and that's exactly what happened to Jews in the Middle East and it explains why there are none left outside of Israel.

You seem to want to blame the Jews for defending themselves in the face of this ongoing genocide when they themselves are the target of that ongoing genocide. The logic is difficult to comprehend.


Targeting and systematically removing an entire ethnicity of people from region or country is ethnic cleansing and that's exactly what has been unfolding against Palestine.

You seem to want to defend ethnic cleansing of a people as a means by which to potentially secure safety while ignoring that there's no guarantee it will do anything more than lead to long-term problems, using your condemnations of genocide as a blatantly hypocritical emotional shield.

These folks should get to commit genocide because they suffered genocide and genocide is bad mmkay.
:roll:


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