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salad
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25 Jun 2021, 2:55 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
I think this would be a great conversation to have with your fiance. You worry what she will think, so why not ask what she thinks? The topic is just the tip of the iceberg as to what kind of men you both would want to raise sons to be, and being on the same page with these kinds of things is important to a marriage. It is easier to work through differences now while you both are still in the glow of discovery.

Overall, I agree with the others: it is OK for men to cry, but in my experience men try not to cry in front of other men. The problem is, a lot of difficult pain can build up inside if you spend too much time suppressing your natural reactions, and eventually all the suppressed emotion can come out in toxic and inappropriate actions. Better to know when you can safely break down and cry than assume and suppress.


I for sure never cry in front of others, that isn't the problem. For me the problem is crying at all, even in private. it feels so weak and pathetic that I cry when no one in my culture ever cries.


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kraftiekortie
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25 Jun 2021, 7:55 am

I'm of (Belorussian) Russian-Jewish descent on my mother's side. My grandmother was born in Minsk, and came to the US at age 6 in 1910.

People who were part of the "great wave of immigration" were frequently very stoic people (men and women).



salad
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25 Jun 2021, 12:33 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I'm of (Belorussian) Russian-Jewish descent on my mother's side. My grandmother was born in Minsk, and came to the US at age 6 in 1910.

People who were part of the "great wave of immigration" were frequently very stoic people (men and women).


It's hard not to be stoic during the age of wars where life was precarious and hardships a reality of living.


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kraftiekortie
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25 Jun 2021, 4:16 pm

That's right. They had to be stoical in order to survive.

I am one who acknowledges that I can never fully understand the suffering many people went through in the past. People of all races and ethnicities. The Jews don't have a monopoly on suffering; neither do most other ethnic groups.

I knew a person who was a Holocaust survivor. I knew this because he had the "number" tattooed onto him. He didn't feel sorry for himself. In fact, he showed me the wounds he got during his time in the concentration camps. He was proud of those wounds.

I found it a bit cuckoo----but, then again, I was only 12 years old at the time.



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25 Jun 2021, 10:26 pm

Ya'll know what toxic masculinity is? It's this. The fact that you feel shame for having emotions and showing them is what is wrong.

Kraftie mentioned some of the reason that the "men shouldn't cry" but a big part of that is just sexism.

If Crying = weakness then why are women/girls can without shame? Simply it's because women have been seen as emotional and weaker than men. So if a man cries, he is like a weak, irrational woman. That's the mentality which has been persistent throughout ages.

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I for sure never cry in front of others, that isn't the problem. For me the problem is crying at all, even in private. it feels so weak and pathetic that I cry when no one in my culture ever cries.

I call BS. There are some people that aren't particularly expressive with emotion but that's not the case of an entire culture because people are individuals. If all of them are claiming to never cry, they are lying.

Being able to express your emotion; ones that make you feel vulnerable is a strength. Even those of us that are taught it's okay to show tears can still struggle with feeling self assured and strong enough to let others see it. So for boys/men who have had that kind of toxic bs "Men don't cry" shoved down their throats all their life, it is even more a strength. Being able to show vulnerability takes a hell of a lot more strength and courage than not showing 'tears'.

Unfortunately because there are people with dumbarse mentalities you do have to be careful of who you let see the 'unguarded' you because it is possible they will harm you/shame you. Protecting yourself is more important. But if you find people that are more open and that you can trust there is absolutely no reason you should feel shameful about expressing whatever you are feeling.


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funeralxempire
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25 Jun 2021, 10:43 pm

salad wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I think this would be a great conversation to have with your fiance. You worry what she will think, so why not ask what she thinks? The topic is just the tip of the iceberg as to what kind of men you both would want to raise sons to be, and being on the same page with these kinds of things is important to a marriage. It is easier to work through differences now while you both are still in the glow of discovery.

Overall, I agree with the others: it is OK for men to cry, but in my experience men try not to cry in front of other men. The problem is, a lot of difficult pain can build up inside if you spend too much time suppressing your natural reactions, and eventually all the suppressed emotion can come out in toxic and inappropriate actions. Better to know when you can safely break down and cry than assume and suppress.


I for sure never cry in front of others, that isn't the problem. For me the problem is crying at all, even in private. it feels so weak and pathetic that I cry when no one in my culture ever admits to crying cries.


Fixed that for ya. I'm certain some do no matter how stoic they present. They just do it in private.
Others cope in other more toxic ways, but why be like them?


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salad
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25 Jun 2021, 11:02 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
salad wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I think this would be a great conversation to have with your fiance. You worry what she will think, so why not ask what she thinks? The topic is just the tip of the iceberg as to what kind of men you both would want to raise sons to be, and being on the same page with these kinds of things is important to a marriage. It is easier to work through differences now while you both are still in the glow of discovery.

Overall, I agree with the others: it is OK for men to cry, but in my experience men try not to cry in front of other men. The problem is, a lot of difficult pain can build up inside if you spend too much time suppressing your natural reactions, and eventually all the suppressed emotion can come out in toxic and inappropriate actions. Better to know when you can safely break down and cry than assume and suppress.


I for sure never cry in front of others, that isn't the problem. For me the problem is crying at all, even in private. it feels so weak and pathetic that I cry when no one in my culture ever admits to crying cries.


Fixed that for ya. I'm certain some do no matter how stoic they present. They just do it in private.
Others cope in other more toxic ways, but why be like them?


No the men in my culture really dont ever cry. Ever. When I was in Palestine i used to see even boys who were tortured and beaten by Israeli soldiers who talked about it nonchalantly without any emotions

I'm a far cry from that level of badassitude since my weak and pussilimanious self still has PTSD from stuff that happened when I was 6. SIX!! I'm the black sheep of my family and culture. The kinds of things that depress and cause me to feel emotional pain boys in Palestine brush off without any emotion

I try to live up to that ideal but I always fall short


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cyberdad
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25 Jun 2021, 11:14 pm

salad wrote:
No the men in my culture really dont ever cry. Ever. When I was in Palestine i used to see even boys who were tortured and beaten by Israeli soldiers who talked about it nonchalantly without any emotions


Just out of curiosity why did you immediately refer to your Russian step-father when I asked you about your culture having warrior roots?

The land of Palestine has been the place of more conflict over a longer period of time (at least 5000 years) than literally any other part of the globe, I think this creates a certain stoic nature among the people.

But interestingly I have seen many pictures/videos of palestinians crying after a conflict with the IDF. The Israelis claim this is just done for the camera. What do you think?



salad
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25 Jun 2021, 11:21 pm

cyberdad wrote:
salad wrote:
No the men in my culture really dont ever cry. Ever. When I was in Palestine i used to see even boys who were tortured and beaten by Israeli soldiers who talked about it nonchalantly without any emotions


Just out of curiosity why did you immediately refer to your Russian step-father when I asked you about your culture having warrior roots?

The land of Palestine has been the place of more conflict over a longer period of time (at least 5000 years) than literally any other part of the globe, I think this creates a certain stoic nature among the people.

But interestingly I have seen many pictures/videos of palestinians crying after a conflict with the IDF. The Israelis claim this is just done for the camera. What do you think?


Well maybe at the moment the men definitely can cry and the women are always allowed to cry, but behind closed doors men dont wsnt to be seen weak by other men so they avoid crying in front of each other

Also my step father isnt Russian. My biological father is Russian


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cyberdad
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25 Jun 2021, 11:25 pm

salad wrote:
Well maybe at the moment the men definitely can cry and the women are always allowed to cry, but behind closed doors men dont wsnt to be seen weak by other men so they avoid crying in front of each other

Also my step father isnt Russian. My biological father is Russian


I think you need to seperate Russian and Palestinian culture. BTW Russia has also been a land of constant warfare which goes back thousands of years.



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25 Jun 2021, 11:28 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I
People who were part of the "great wave of immigration" were frequently very stoic people (men and women).


Certainly the jewish people from eastern Europe are among the most hardy/stoic in the world given the pogroms they experienced.



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25 Jun 2021, 11:48 pm

salad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
salad wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I think this would be a great conversation to have with your fiance. You worry what she will think, so why not ask what she thinks? The topic is just the tip of the iceberg as to what kind of men you both would want to raise sons to be, and being on the same page with these kinds of things is important to a marriage. It is easier to work through differences now while you both are still in the glow of discovery.

Overall, I agree with the others: it is OK for men to cry, but in my experience men try not to cry in front of other men. The problem is, a lot of difficult pain can build up inside if you spend too much time suppressing your natural reactions, and eventually all the suppressed emotion can come out in toxic and inappropriate actions. Better to know when you can safely break down and cry than assume and suppress.


I for sure never cry in front of others, that isn't the problem. For me the problem is crying at all, even in private. it feels so weak and pathetic that I cry when no one in my culture ever admits to crying cries.


Fixed that for ya. I'm certain some do no matter how stoic they present. They just do it in private.
Others cope in other more toxic ways, but why be like them?


No the men in my culture really dont ever cry. Ever. When I was in Palestine i used to see even boys who were tortured and beaten by Israeli soldiers who talked about it nonchalantly without any emotions

I'm a far cry from that level of badassitude since my weak and pussilimanious self still has PTSD from stuff that happened when I was 6. SIX!! I'm the black sheep of my family and culture. The kinds of things that depress and cause me to feel emotional pain boys in Palestine brush off without any emotion

I try to live up to that ideal but I always fall short


All I'm saying is you only see those people some of the time.


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26 Jun 2021, 1:56 am

salad wrote:
No the men in my culture really dont ever cry. Ever. When I was in Palestine i used to see even boys who were tortured and beaten by Israeli soldiers who talked about it nonchalantly without any emotions

I'm a far cry from that level of badassitude since my weak and pussilimanious self still has PTSD from stuff that happened when I was 6. SIX!! I'm the black sheep of my family and culture. The kinds of things that depress and cause me to feel emotional pain boys in Palestine brush off without any emotion

I try to live up to that ideal but I always fall short


That is different than just culture. In the face of traumatic events people respond in different ways. One way is the symptoms of PTSD, another is to shut down. When you have cultures that impose "men are strong and don't cry" and thus also doesn't teach boys anything about them; it's not that odd, that in the face of trauma they would default to numbness.

It's a survival method (as Kraftie talked about) to kill/box/numb your emotions. Accompanied with disassociation and a bit of brainwashing to make a person warped. It's entirely possible that under the pressure to be the toxic ideal to 'not cry' in itself can trigger a survival mode as well. Nothing about it is badass, it's just sad


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26 Jun 2021, 2:26 am

salad wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
salad wrote:
In my culture it is absolutely forbidden for men to cry and I've never ever met a guy whose cried. My dad belted me on the face as a kid for once crying and he emphasized that men dont cry


In many warrior cultures boys who cried were shunned as weak. Do you think this is where this stems from?


To be fair my father who belted me for crying was Russian and I dont remember Russia being a warrior culture


Yes they are, or at least been so for a very long time in history.


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26 Jun 2021, 2:35 am

i remember a morbid old joke about the mean old man who died, and on the autopsy table the pathologist opened up the mean old man, only to be splashed by a torrent of tears that the old man had accumulated within him all his life, never having released them.



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27 Jun 2021, 5:57 pm

Crying was discouraged in my family, as was displaying any extreme of emotion. It just annoyed my parents so I learned not to do it. I find it difficult to blame them for this because I too find people crying annoying, even my partner and daughter whom I love and don't want to feel they can't express themselves freely. I try not to let my annoyance show (which is ironic, because I'm still suppressing what I'm really feeling).

Personally, I find it physically difficult to cry. It's like I don't know how to do it properly, I can't get all the pieces moving at the same time. Or I can't allow myself to really let go. I run a lot and sometimes I cry when I run. Like the exertion breaks the dam and it all floods out. I'll be in the middle of nowhere and I'll have to stop and have a bawl and then carry on. I find it quite funny but it'd probably look really weird if anyone ever saw me do it!