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Joe90
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07 Jul 2021, 11:37 pm

Well, this experiment proved that there are double standards. If an NT does something, whatever it is, whatever the circumstances or context, it is logical and is OK. If an Aspie does the same thing, it is rude, selfish, inconsiderate and breaking social rules.


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cyberdad
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08 Jul 2021, 12:01 am

Joe90 wrote:
Well, this experiment proved that there are double standards. If an NT does something, whatever it is, whatever the circumstances or context, it is logical and is OK. If an Aspie does the same thing, it is rude, selfish, inconsiderate and breaking social rules.


It's an interesting point. I think for NTs there is more an organic process in reaching an understanding of how things will go. Drinking in groups goes back to village life where everyone knew each other and the rite of drinking allowed one "break bread" (so to speak) in a jovial atmosphere even with one's enemy or a stranger in the village and let bygones be bygones.

Half the fun is nobody knows how the night is going to end. That's literally why I said its probably not great idea for people on the spectrum who prefer some certainty when they go out.



nick007
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08 Jul 2021, 2:37 pm

nick007 wrote:
I hadn't been in Social Skills section in a long time until now. I read that post & replies as well as the replies here. Without really thinking about it, it does seem to be something of a double standard. However there are some other important differences to factor in besides the Aspie doing it to NTs & an NT doing it to an Aspie. One important thing to keep in mind is that James has a history of going to bars & being social with people there who are not really his friend. No offensive James. In that post he only stated that the people he was with 1st were regulars, he did NOT say that they were his friends. Joe if your post had said that the girl was a regular instead of saying she was a friend, I woulda been preparing to post a different reply here when I got to your 2nd post in this thread.
I realized that I majorly misunderstood what you were trying to point out with this post Joe. When I 1st read James post after reading your post here before reading replies, I thought you were trying to argue that there was a double standard in the other direction where your hypothetical NT "friend" was in the wrong for ditching you but James was not in the wrong for ditching his drinking buddies. That double standard would make perfect sense to me considering James history with bars & him not using the word "friend" in that post. I'm sorry I got confused.

Your rite Joe there def does seem to be a double standard here between your post & his post where an NT "friend" ditching an Aspie is acceptable but an Aspie ditching some drinking buddies who were never real friends is a horrible Aspie misstep. Perhaps some of this double standard is due to us Aspies being a small minority group. NTs are the majority & it is their word we are forced to live in(look at the name of this forum) so it is their rules we are expected to follow when dealing with them. There is a legal saying that goes "ignorance of the law is no excuse" & I think it could apply to social rules as well & social rules can vary quite a lot depending on numerous factors including social hierarchy & us Aspies do tend to be at the bottom of the social totem-pole. This is a support site where a lot(probably most) of us are trying to learn & wanting to do right by others & the only way we can do better in the future is if others are straight with us about how things work in the real world. Us Aspies are well known for being very direct & blunt & we can sure be that way to each other sometimes. This is the only theory I can think of rite now for the double standard here. I may very well be grasping at straws here & could be way off. I have been at least a little misanthropic these days cuz of this f#cked-up world :shrug:


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Joe90
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08 Jul 2021, 4:44 pm

It makes being on the spectrum very hard and unfair though.
But when I read a thread about a social faux pas or whatever, I don't side with the 'greater', I put myself in both party's shoes and the one I feel is the most 'wrong' I will say, but without sounding too harsh.

So if I feel like the Aspie was doing something most NTs typically wouldn't do or is deliberately being a jerk, I will probably side with the NT depending on the circumstances of the situation of course. If the Aspie was doing something NTs would typically do then I won't jump all over the Aspie's case. After all, Aspies are humans too and no human is perfect.

But you'd have thought on an autism forum Aspies would side with each other, being so some Aspies are so resentful against NTs. I'm not resentful against anyone, people are people at the end of the day; some people are jerks more than others, whether they're Aspie or NT or some other neurology. It's not fair really to say in every hurtful situation an Aspie has to experience "oh, they're not being jerks, they're just NTs being NTs".

It's like NTs are allowed to ignore you if they're having a bad day and as Aspies we will be lacking empathy if we get hurt for being unexpectedly ignored by an NT neighbour or colleague. But if an Aspie is having a bad day and we ignore a neighbour or a colleague due to shutdown or whatever, we're being rude and could hurt the NT's feelings. That gets me the most.


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cyberdad
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08 Jul 2021, 9:16 pm

Joe90 wrote:
It's like NTs are allowed to ignore you if they're having a bad day and as Aspies we will be lacking empathy if we get hurt for being unexpectedly ignored by an NT neighbour or colleague. But if an Aspie is having a bad day and we ignore a neighbour or a colleague due to shutdown or whatever, we're being rude and could hurt the NT's feelings. That gets me the most.


I think you are projecting your own views onto NTs but that's not how they think. You are relying on something called a heuristic where your friend behaved in a particular way on that day and it reflects (according to you) how she would behave all the time. In reality you are missing the situational factors (bar-hopping, groups, drinking, inebriation, wanting to have fun) that probably influenced her behaviour that night.

You friend was not having a bad day, it sounds like she was having a great time. If you want to hang around with NTs its important to be flexible and (if I were you) not bring it up with her as she'd think you were being clingy/needy.

The simple solution is if you don't like being left with strangers you don't know then just call it a night. Nobody is going to judge you. I know many NTs who will join a group going to a bar and stay for an hour or two have one drink then just tell their friends they have another engagement but it was "nice catching up". Everyone is cool with that.



Joe90
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09 Jul 2021, 1:04 am

cyberdad wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
It's like NTs are allowed to ignore you if they're having a bad day and as Aspies we will be lacking empathy if we get hurt for being unexpectedly ignored by an NT neighbour or colleague. But if an Aspie is having a bad day and we ignore a neighbour or a colleague due to shutdown or whatever, we're being rude and could hurt the NT's feelings. That gets me the most.


I think you are projecting your own views onto NTs but that's not how they think. You are relying on something called a heuristic where your friend behaved in a particular way on that day and it reflects (according to you) how she would behave all the time. In reality you are missing the situational factors (bar-hopping, groups, drinking, inebriation, wanting to have fun) that probably influenced her behaviour that night.

You friend was not having a bad day, it sounds like she was having a great time. If you want to hang around with NTs its important to be flexible and (if I were you) not bring it up with her as she'd think you were being clingy/needy.

The simple solution is if you don't like being left with strangers you don't know then just call it a night. Nobody is going to judge you. I know many NTs who will join a group going to a bar and stay for an hour or two have one drink then just tell their friends they have another engagement but it was "nice catching up". Everyone is cool with that.


Haven't you read my previous posts here?
This situation didn't happen, I totally made it up, I was just doing an experiment to see who's side the posters would take compared to Jamesy's thread in the social skills section titled "did I do bad?" If you have a look at that thread you'll see for yourself that some posters took the NT's side saying that Jamesy was very rude for leaving his friends without saying goodbye when he was bar hopping and that he hurt their feelings and all that s**t.


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cyberdad
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09 Jul 2021, 1:56 am

Who is Jamesy?



Joe90
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09 Jul 2021, 2:03 am

cyberdad wrote:
Who is Jamesy?


A member here.


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cyberdad
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09 Jul 2021, 2:10 am

Well replace OP with Jamesy then and my posts are still valid.



Joe90
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09 Jul 2021, 2:26 am

cyberdad wrote:
Well replace OP with Jamesy then and my posts are still valid.


No, it was the other way around in Jamesy's thread. Jamesy was the one who left his NT friend at a bar without telling them and went to another bar with another group, then got a text the next morning from his friend saying how hurt they were because he left them. But some people in the thread were saying he's rude and inconsiderate for leaving them without saying goodbye.
So if an NT leaves an Aspie friend at a bar it's normal, acceptable, bar hopping, inebriation, having fun, etc.
If an Aspie leaves an NT friend at a bar it's rude, inconsiderate, uncalled for, mean, selfish, etc.

The NT always wins.


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cyberdad
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09 Jul 2021, 2:32 am

Joe90 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Well replace OP with Jamesy then and my posts are still valid.


No, it was the other way around in Jamesy's thread. Jamesy was the one who left his NT friend at a bar without telling them and went to another bar with another group, then got a text the next morning from his friend saying how hurt they were because he left them. But some people in the thread were saying he's rude and inconsiderate for leaving them without saying goodbye.
So if an NT leaves an Aspie friend at a bar it's normal, acceptable, bar hopping, inebriation, having fun, etc.
If an Aspie leaves an NT friend at a bar it's rude, inconsiderate, uncalled for, mean, selfish, etc.

The NT always wins.


Oh ok. Well that's just the NT being inflexible, If I was Jamesy I would laugh it off and let the friend come to terms with it.