Critical Race Theory B- what is it, and why NOT teach it?

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cyberdad
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15 Jul 2021, 1:38 am

Bradleigh wrote:
but so many of the anti-CRT people are basing their opinions just on feelings that it makes them uncomfortable and they could imagine that it is actually going too far.


I would go further and say "all" the anti-CRT people are basing their opinions on feelings.

Its quite bizarre given religious studies are compulsory in many schools and yet parents are happy for their children to learn fairy tales that won't help them to get a job, get healthy or get laid.



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15 Jul 2021, 1:52 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
It sounds like we'd both agree that anyone who actually treats their students that way, especially elementary school students, has no business teaching it in a public setting (anyone who'd say that people espousing the later with a megaphone are nonexistent right-wing boogeymen only needs to have a very solid, alive, and breathing Robin DiAngelo pointed out to them and understand as well that she has a lineage of authors she's drawing from).


What I agree upon is that children under the age of 12 do not need to learn the horrors of slavery

I don't think a child under 12 has the cognitive capacity to understand the nuance of historical context in that the founding fathers guided the fledgling nation through tribulations and should be accredited for their roles in the war of independence and the drafting of the US constitution. Its too much for them to also learn that (objectively speaking) Washington and Jefferson were human traffickers, jefferson raped a child and Washington engaged in violence against his slaves.

By 13-14 I think they are cognitively mature enough to be exposed to this material and certainly if highschool history covers the Nazi holocaust then the holocaust against native Americans and black people should also be included in all its entirety + the legacy of systemic racism continues today. The latter in particular is what white parents are angry about.

The question of whether a 15-16yr old white kid would have self-esteem issues being taught about systemic racism is adults projecting their own prejudices/biases on their kids. Emerging adults are capable of understanding they live in a society that has remnant legacies of Jim crow.

A good starting point is the Jane Elliot experiment which should be mandatory in all schools
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... -72754306/

If I was a teacher in America the first thing I would tell the kids that 40% their country is comprised of PoC then I would ask the kids to turn around guess what the percentage is in their class. The answer in a significant proportion of American schools would be zero %. That should get the kids thinking about how that happened.



Bradleigh
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15 Jul 2021, 2:11 am

cyberdad wrote:
By 13-14 I think they are cognitively mature enough to be exposed to this material and certainly if highschool history covers the Nazi holocaust then the holocaust against native Americans and black people should also be included in all its entirety + the legacy of systemic racism continues today. The latter in particular is what white parents are angry about.


I think that it can be underestimating children to assume that they can't know bad things happened. What grade are kids usually taught of Anne Frank?


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TheRobotLives
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15 Jul 2021, 3:33 am

Bradleigh wrote:
The problem is that not everyone is on an even foot with these things, like only being the only one responsible for failures. It is like looking at a bunch of people that were raised in poor families and telling them off for not being as successful as people that were raised in a rich family.

That dogma you are quoting maybe helped some, but it is ignoring real systematic issues. And it has been so long since the problems like civil rights were supposedly fixed, but there are still issues that are still happening today, that just ignoring them isn't fixing it. How many more people have to die from unequal treatment based on race by the police, before it gets to become equal? Are those lives worth it? And what other discrimination exists? It wasn't and isn't too hard to find black people talking about how they have been treated differently based on their skin.

Everyone has to make the best of their situation.

CRT isn't changing that.


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cyberdad
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15 Jul 2021, 3:37 am

Bradleigh wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
By 13-14 I think they are cognitively mature enough to be exposed to this material and certainly if highschool history covers the Nazi holocaust then the holocaust against native Americans and black people should also be included in all its entirety + the legacy of systemic racism continues today. The latter in particular is what white parents are angry about.


I think that it can be underestimating children to assume that they can't know bad things happened. What grade are kids usually taught of Anne Frank?


And that's one of my points. There is a kids version of the "story of Anne Frank". It just talks about her life and glosses over her getting arrested and sent to camp.

kids won't be told about another young girl named Sally Hemmings because little Sally was forced to work 17hr days as a child slave and suck Thomas Jefferson's cock at night time. Its actually a horror story and one that is difficult to stomach.



cyberdad
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15 Jul 2021, 3:38 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Everyone has to make the best of their situation.

CRT isn't changing that.


So why the hysterics?



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15 Jul 2021, 3:48 am

cyberdad wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Everyone has to make the best of their situation.

CRT isn't changing that.


So why the hysterics?

Mostly, white people are not oppressors, and black people are not victims.

It's a huge lie to cover up personal failures.

This is likely the Marxist thinking of blaming the collective, not the individual.

So, maybe Fox News viewers are told that they're stopping their children from being brainwashed.


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Bradleigh
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15 Jul 2021, 4:16 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Everyone has to make the best of their situation.

CRT isn't changing that.


So why the hysterics?

Mostly, white people are not oppressors, and black people are not victims.

It's a huge lie to cover up personal failures.

This is likely the Marxist thinking of blaming the collective, not the individual.


Not sure where the assumption that all or most white people are oppressors comes from. Kind of sounds like a strawman argument rather than something based on fact.

The evidence is still there to find that people are disadvantaged based on the colour of their skin. Sounds a bit crummy in itself to say something like the difference of on average wealth of people of different races is because of their own personal failures. As an example, people of colour often find themselves more likely to be followed by security guards.

Saying that everyone just has to make the best of their situation kind of just sounds like an excuse nothing in response to anything. People say that their children are being eaten hungry lions, nothing should be done because everyone has to make the best of their situation. It shows a huge amount of apathy.


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So, maybe Fox News viewers are told that they're stopping their children from being brainwashed.


Or these people are being brainwashed by Fox News. They managed to convince a bunch of people in a relatively short time that young children are being taught to hate themselves for being white, with absolutely no evidence.


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cyberdad
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15 Jul 2021, 4:39 am

Bradleigh wrote:
Saying that everyone just has to make the best of their situation kind of just sounds like an excuse nothing in response to anything. People say that their children are being eaten hungry lions, nothing should be done because everyone has to make the best of their situation. It shows a huge amount of apathy..


Sounds like the idea behind Hunger games. it's easy to default to darwinian survival of the fittest when you are on the side that has all the cards stacked in their favour.



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15 Jul 2021, 6:12 am

 ! Cornflake wrote:
While some topic drift is to be expected, it seems that the drift here is introducing rather too many sub-topics with the effect of diverging from the thread's topic - so please, drift back onto the topic "Critical Race Theory B- what is it, and why NOT teach it?"

Note also that this isn't the place to offer up any support for CRT - that's better addressed on the "Part A" thread, here: viewtopic.php?t=398565#p8823092


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15 Jul 2021, 7:49 am

cyberdad wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
it's more the idea that someone's going to be teaching their kids ideas that can't be questioned in a manner that overshoots the mark and creates a whole new set of problems is what's setting people off right now.


Please show me one example where one element of the CRT curriculum where information has been gathered that is not falsifiable?

This relies on critical analysis of sources for history. The American founding fathers assumed slavery would be a permanent feature of American society so meticulous records were kept of slaves, their names, age, gender as they were classified as property or chattel. Farmers kept inventory of cattle, stock animals and slaves for taxation purposes and this information has always been available in archives waiting to be unearthed for historic study.

There are numerous diaries where the slave owners kept of what they did to slaves. Luckily many of these have ended up in museums where they should be but I am sure thousands upon thousands of personal diaries have been locked away by embarrassed descendants or burned. Third newspapers have literally thousands of references to slaves, natives, blacks and what was published gives a good picture of the mindset of people at that time. Books both fiction and non-fiction also provide sources for historians.

All historic information is subject to critical review, but in an objective and unbiased manner not tainted by "white guilt" bias that seems to be the only defence the anti-CRT people have to oppose CRT.

Your knowledge of US history and our founding documents is extremely flawed. But more to the point, there is no un-biased review of history (or anything else). There is bias in every textbook and every education system. What CRT does is insert the narrative that the entire founding and existence of the United States is based on anti-black racism. You have to want to believe such nonsense to think that it has any basis in reality.



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15 Jul 2021, 7:53 am

Very well said roronoa79! You nailed it!



techstepgenr8tion
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15 Jul 2021, 8:34 am

cyberdad wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
It sounds like we'd both agree that anyone who actually treats their students that way, especially elementary school students, has no business teaching it in a public setting (anyone who'd say that people espousing the later with a megaphone are nonexistent right-wing boogeymen only needs to have a very solid, alive, and breathing Robin DiAngelo pointed out to them and understand as well that she has a lineage of authors she's drawing from).


What I agree upon is that children under the age of 12 do not need to learn the horrors of slavery

I don't think a child under 12 has the cognitive capacity to understand the nuance of historical context in that the founding fathers guided the fledgling nation through tribulations and should be accredited for their roles in the war of independence and the drafting of the US constitution. Its too much for them to also learn that (objectively speaking) Washington and Jefferson were human traffickers, jefferson raped a child and Washington engaged in violence against his slaves.

By 13-14 I think they are cognitively mature enough to be exposed to this material and certainly if highschool history covers the Nazi holocaust then the holocaust against native Americans and black people should also be included in all its entirety + the legacy of systemic racism continues today. The latter in particular is what white parents are angry about.

The question of whether a 15-16yr old white kid would have self-esteem issues being taught about systemic racism is adults projecting their own prejudices/biases on their kids. Emerging adults are capable of understanding they live in a society that has remnant legacies of Jim crow.

I think the 'self esteem' thing is an acknowledgement that the social world is a world of dominance based on pathological narcissism and if their kids gained humility they'd be 'wiser' but lose the social arms race - and it's an argument of the sort that deserves a solid 'go ---- yourself'. We don't want them being idiots in the world who don't know what's going on, we also don't want them to find some other idiocy to fall into - which there are all sorts of people who want to be prophets of one thing or another and can't wait to get into a school room and make followers. Sometimes they're ideologues, sometimes they're grandiose narcissists, I'm sure the two aren't mutually exclusive either. Point being - we're in a place where we can't have people oversteering to correct a problem (rather than just the bland 'teach history unvarnished') because it will become it's own profitable monster and a wonderful new extortion racket for people who want power and control. People who'd argue for 'self esteem' are one kind of dangerous idiot, the people who'd argue that their kids need - not historical facts drummed in - but, literal, actual claims of 'You're racist because of your skin color' are a different kind of dangerous idiot. Telling both to go pound salt is equally important.

What kids of this generation, of any race, need is critical thinking skills and the ability to tell whose giving them facts that they can slot as best they can and whose trying to force a whole operating system on them, and that's particularly a place where there's a constant battle between people who want to sell children a whole operating system, those who might partially be doing that already and don't want to give up power, and then the third possibly rarer but - IMHO - correct group who'd suggest that we can't have a working civilization, especially with as much X-risk as we have coming at us, if we don't turn out kids who haven't been taught critical thinking, equal self-criticism, and a real awareness of what kinds of social and ideological malware is out there. To that later point there's no place for selling children simplified software suites that bypass critical thinking.

The thing that's really obnoxious with the discourse around CRT right now, to which there seems to be plenty of signal that it's this way by design, is it forces social cleavage not on facts but what people want the facts to be. I don't mean facts about history but about the performance of CRT. It's a situation where you have plenty of left of center and even leftists saying things that people just assume are Trumpist right-wing talking points and they jump into central tendency of 'Ah, that sounded absurd, someone else over here is saying it's all sunshine in rainbows, I'll wager it's 30% of the way out from the sunshine and rainbows guy'. I think this is where people are replacing CRT in the discussion with 'What's wrong with teaching actual American history from other points of view about things that really happened?' - the proper answer to that is 'Nothing, and anyone whose arguing against that isn't credible'. The follow up to that might be 'Then what the heck are we talking about?', to which the response would be - 'Go see what CRT is, not what it would be 'nice for it to be''.



The guy in the video below seems to be a liberal, ie. too far right of left to have a valid opinion on the topic, thankfully he's doing less opining and more trying to shake out what's in the source material and do so without steering too hard into approval or disapproval (slightly the later but he's drawing it from the sources).


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15 Jul 2021, 11:29 am

Mr Reynholm wrote:
Very well said roronoa79! You nailed it!

Please elaborate on what parts of what I've said you think are wrong or which you think somehow support your argument.


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15 Jul 2021, 11:54 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
..and then the third possibly rarer but - IMHO - correct group who'd suggest that we can't have a working civilization, especially with as much X-risk as we have coming at us, if we don't turn out kids who haven't been taught critical thinking, equal self-criticism, and a real awareness of what kinds of social and ideological malware is out there.

Slight belated correction - 'don't turn out kids who have been taught'. Ended up saying the opposite of what I meant there.


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15 Jul 2021, 12:37 pm

Bradleigh wrote:


Okay, what first hand evidence can you give that CRT that says this that white people are just evil and racist?


the crazy lady who went to Yale* is linked to CRT.

She says it is about PTSD, but so far I see all nasty b***h syndrome no PTSD, and I should know, I have both

*by went to Yale I dont mean she's alum, she have a speech there.



even more disturbing, the part of Yale she spoke in is linked to Eugenics and Autism, I read it in The War on Autism last night Here is a screen of part of it

Image



Last edited by The_Znof on 15 Jul 2021, 12:58 pm, edited 5 times in total.