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IsabellaLinton
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20 Jul 2021, 1:56 pm

I understand that some killers are autistic. That's statistically inevitable. But when there's a mass killing, do they ever tell how many of the victims were autistic?

In that Colorado grocery-store mass shooting, at least one of the victims was developmentally delayed. I believe I even read that she had been in Special Olympics. Nothing much is said about the victims' disabilities as they pertain to crime statistics.

I won't even get into SA crimes or relationship abuse.



The_Znof
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20 Jul 2021, 4:23 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I never heard that stereotype in my whole life until I joined WP.

This seems to be the only place people say it.

I'd rather see threads and media coverage about the fact we are often conned, victimised, or gas lighted.


the media is too busy gaslighing everybody by injection inside or almost a cleaning to stop for us!

well they stop for Eliot Rogers and Sandy Hook guy, but that stuff is a gas too IMO.

Ted Turner wears farty pants and shares them with Murdoch as they laugh to the bank



Last edited by The_Znof on 20 Jul 2021, 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Znof
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20 Jul 2021, 4:31 pm

Joe90 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Will you stop with the garbage about autism and criminality!

It’s the most asinine thing!


This.

I also heard that adults with ADHD are very well known for getting into trouble with the law, but I don't even know if that's true or not. It can sometimes depend on one's upbringing. I was brought up to be respectful, secure, decent and honest, and nobody in my family has ever committed a crime, so I'm not likely to either. Also I don't drink or take drugs and I choose my friends wisely.


I think it is good stats that show the adhd/crime link, but there is a recent study that shows comorbid ASD can keep ADHD people from committing crimes..

Im pressed for time and cant find it, another member posted it couple weeks ago here, in a Franz thread



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20 Jul 2021, 5:44 pm

The main trait of impulsivity is what is usually ties to crime.

It doesn't necessarily have to be ADHD as a whole or some particular difference; only of that impulsivity.



From where I came from, it is not as relevant nor widespread.

If anything, that stigma around autism and crime is simply bizzare.
The obsession around killers in general is also bizzare. Simple as that.

The perception around impulsivity here is a bit different -- because the views around emotions and identity have subtle differences.



So if someone confronts me about autism and crime in real life... I'd just laugh out loud and make a joke with them. :lol:


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Joe90
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20 Jul 2021, 5:47 pm

The main reason why I tend to closet my ASD is because I'm scared people will think I'm capable of going on a murder rampage. Maybe this offensive stigma is only against men on the spectrum, and I do feel sorry for Aspie guys. :(

I never knew autism would get such a bad press though. I always thought people with Schizophenia would be the ones stigmatized because the general public see them as ''unpredictable'' and ''crazy''. I thought autistic people would be seen as ''innocent'' and ''naive'', like people with downs syndrome are. But I suppose all it takes is a small handful of autistic people to murder people and the whole group of autistic people suffer the stigma. :roll:


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IsabellaLinton
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20 Jul 2021, 5:51 pm

The_Znof wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Will you stop with the garbage about autism and criminality!

It’s the most asinine thing!


This.

I also heard that adults with ADHD are very well known for getting into trouble with the law, but I don't even know if that's true or not. It can sometimes depend on one's upbringing. I was brought up to be respectful, secure, decent and honest, and nobody in my family has ever committed a crime, so I'm not likely to either. Also I don't drink or take drugs and I choose my friends wisely.


I think it is good stats that show the adhd/crime link, but there is a recent study that shows comorbid ASD can keep ADHD people from committing crimes..

Im pressed for time and cant find it, another member posted it couple weeks ago here, in a Franz thread


Crime isn't just about mass shootings, though. Crime can mean speeding in your car, shoplifting, tax evasion, or any other offence where you live. I'd agree that ADHD might play a role in any crime but there are so many other factors too. I just don't see ASD being a contributing factor for most crime and I don't understand the link even in the media's perception. Most autistic people are hyperempathetic and wouldn't even hurt a fly.

I can only imagine what the stats would look like for interpersonal crimes against autistic partners. Every autistic person I know has been victimised in one way or another, whether sexual abuse, violence, extortion, or con jobs. I include men, women and trans friends in that observation.



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20 Jul 2021, 6:04 pm

The_Znof wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Will you stop with the garbage about autism and criminality!

It’s the most asinine thing!


This.

I also heard that adults with ADHD are very well known for getting into trouble with the law, but I don't even know if that's true or not. It can sometimes depend on one's upbringing. I was brought up to be respectful, secure, decent and honest, and nobody in my family has ever committed a crime, so I'm not likely to either. Also I don't drink or take drugs and I choose my friends wisely.


I think it is good stats that show the adhd/crime link, but there is a recent study that shows comorbid ASD can keep ADHD people from committing crimes..

Im pressed for time and cant find it, another member posted it couple weeks ago here, in a Franz thread


Ultimately it isn't the diagnostic labels that makes the different, it's how those traits interact with regards to an individual's impulse control.

Some folks who have ASD/ADHD comorbid are more inhibited than others and more likely to refrain from transgressive behaviour than others. Other factors might be relevant too.

Someone who's relatively highly inhibited still might lash out violently during a meltdown, that may end up being viewed as criminality.

Someone who's fairly highly inhibited might be able to justify criminality due to circumstance; a person who's homeless and unemployed is more likely to rationalize shoplifting in that circumstance than prior to being in that circumstance; a person who's highly resentful to their workplace might rationalize theft from that workplace they wouldn't consider otherwise, etc.

Some portion of people with ASD tend to be quite impressionable, for those people if they're in an environment where certain norms are regularly violated they might begin to do so as well, which has the potential to result in criminality.

Difficulty with understanding social norms, especially if combined with poor impulse control can lead to escalating hostile social situations that might not have escalated, which has the potential to result in criminality.

Ultimately poor impulse control is going to be the primary factor, although in certain contexts other deficits might also impact how someone with those two comorbid might be at risk for violating the law.

Being naive and impressionable, while also struggling socially has the potential to leave one surrounded by bad influences. Having poor social judgment and poor impulse control has the potential to leave one in situations where no good choices exist. Being overly loyal to the wrong person can lead one to following others down bad paths.

None of those things are ADHD or ASD, some of them are common in one or both of those populations but some of them are just circumstance and have more to do with one's support network and how toxic their mindset is.


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20 Jul 2021, 6:09 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I can only imagine what the stats would look like for interpersonal crimes against autistic partners. Every autistic person I know has been victimised in one way or another, whether sexual abuse, violence, extortion, or con jobs. I include men, women and trans friends in that observation.


I wonder how much partner abuse of autistic partners is by autistic partners.

I don't believe all of us are saints, especially based on the amount of rage many people with ASD, especially men with ASD seem to express at times. Especially when I consider most people who struggle with outbursts of rage tend to understand the need to control them and not post them on forums like this.

The stats would likely skew worse if undiagnosed individuals were counted given that they'd be dealing with all the problems without support.


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IsabellaLinton
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20 Jul 2021, 6:14 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
The stats would likely skew worse if undiagnosed individuals were counted given that they'd be dealing with all the problems without support.


I agree completely. ^

Sure we have meltdowns. I have them too and some of them involve throwing things or hurting myself. But, would you agree that most meltdowns make autistic people want to retreat from society and go into a shutdown mode afterward, rather than lashing out at other people or plotting a crime? Even when I'm impulsive and freaking out in a meltdown I'd rather get away from the people and roll up in a ball, than get into interpersonal violence / conflict.



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20 Jul 2021, 6:45 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
The stats would likely skew worse if undiagnosed individuals were counted given that they'd be dealing with all the problems without support.


I agree completely. ^

Sure we have meltdowns. I have them too and some of them involve throwing things or hurting myself. But, would you agree that most meltdowns make autistic people want to retreat from society and go into a shutdown mode afterward, rather than lashing out at other people or plotting a crime? Even when I'm impulsive and freaking out in a meltdown I'd rather get away from the people and roll up in a ball, than get into interpersonal violence / conflict.


I wouldn't assume any criminality connected to a meltdown involves plotting, since... I know I certainly can't plot in that stat.

I'm basically assuming behaviour like throwing stuff, screaming, threatening harm, self-harm and hitting people who try to intervene might occur.

Even if the goal is withdrawal, hitting others is certainly criminality; some of the other stuff is assault in places that distinguish between assault and battery. The fact that it's a fight-or-flight response with the ultimate goal of escaping the overwhelming situation doesn't change whether or not it was criminal. When I was younger if I was in that situation and cornered there's a good chance I'd retreat directly through whoever was cornering me.

Men that have been socialized to express negative emotions as anger/rage would be more likely to hit others in that situation than others, but there certainly are plenty of men with ASD raised in cultures like that because that's still common in our culture.

Women get socialized to express their negative emotions in different ways so stuff like this likely skews against men more than women, even if women can also end up internalizing the same negative mindsets and coping skills as men.


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IsabellaLinton
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20 Jul 2021, 6:58 pm

I agree with your logic. But still, considering only a small percentage of people are autistic, and an even smaller number of them are having meltdowns at any given time, and an even smaller number of those people would lash out in some type of action that would be considered criminal as opposed to just "weird" or "crazy", I don't see where the media would justify making such sweeping allegations against the autistic community at large.



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20 Jul 2021, 7:08 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I agree with your logic. But still, considering only a small percentage of people are autistic, and an even smaller number of them are having meltdowns at any given time, and an even smaller number of those people would lash out in some type of action that would be considered criminal as opposed to just "weird" or "crazy", I don't see where the media would justify making such sweeping allegations against the autistic community at large.


I think the media needs to hire people to break down medical reporting accurately because it isn't just autism where this sort of misunderstanding/exaggeration of what studies say occurs.

These things always come off in a sensationalist way even when they're just quoting studies; it's like they're incapable of writing in a dry and bland manner.


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20 Jul 2021, 7:09 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I just don't see ASD being a contributing factor for most crime and I don't understand the link even in the media's perception.



It comes from Uta Frith in particular, though Baron-Cohen has a huge role.

Quote:
Narcissists, borderline and psychopathic personalities are introduced as people lacking "affective empathy" – the ability to feel others' feelings. Baron-Cohen's new paradigm classifies these personality types as "zero-negative": a zero amount of affective empathy being a negative condition, because the ability to self-regulate the way they treat others is significantly compromised.

By contrast, Baron-Cohen defines people with Asperger's syndrome or classic autism, which is his own field, as "zero-positive". Like the zero-negatives these people lack affective empathy, but in addition they score zero on "cognitive empathy" – thinking others' thoughts

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blo ... aron-cohen

while Baron-Cohen does not claim Autistics do more crime, others use the no empathy smear from him and Frith to slander us.

I have just started reading how they teach empathy to autistics, and it is disturbing, but also funny how stupid and pardoxical some of the things they say are, as they often lack empathy.



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20 Jul 2021, 7:31 pm

The_Znof wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I just don't see ASD being a contributing factor for most crime and I don't understand the link even in the media's perception.



It comes from Uta Frith in particular, though Baron-Cohen has a huge role.

Quote:
Narcissists, borderline and psychopathic personalities are introduced as people lacking "affective empathy" – the ability to feel others' feelings. Baron-Cohen's new paradigm classifies these personality types as "zero-negative": a zero amount of affective empathy being a negative condition, because the ability to self-regulate the way they treat others is significantly compromised.

By contrast, Baron-Cohen defines people with Asperger's syndrome or classic autism, which is his own field, as "zero-positive". Like the zero-negatives these people lack affective empathy, but in addition they score zero on "cognitive empathy" – thinking others' thoughts

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blo ... aron-cohen

while Baron-Cohen does not claim Autistics do more crime, others use the no empathy smear from him and Frith to slander us.

I have just started reading how they teach empathy to autistics, and it is disturbing, but also funny how stupid and pardoxical some of the things they say are, as they often lack empathy.


That's such BS. Autistic people are the most sensitive people I know. We definitely feel sympathy for other people even though some of us are weak in expressive empathy because of alexithymia.

Too bad B-C and the media don't emphasise our difficulty reading nonverbal behaviour, which sets us up for being too naive and being exploited by people we thought we should trust. That's where criminal behaviour happens, but it's against us rather than BY us.



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25 Jul 2021, 4:24 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Especially when I consider most people who struggle with outbursts of rage tend to understand the need to control them and not post them on forums like this.



autistics understand dont post autistic rage on an autistic forum?

count me out of that one!

ps - are you autistic?



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25 Jul 2021, 5:15 pm

The_Znof wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Especially when I consider most people who struggle with outbursts of rage tend to understand the need to control them and not post them on forums like this.



autistics understand dont post autistic rage on an autistic forum?

count me out of that one!

ps - are you autistic?


Do you believe that all of the posters here post their rage without any inhibitions? Obviously there's instances where posters do vent their rage here, but I'd be very surprised if what we see posted is even the tip of the iceberg.


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