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Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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31 Jul 2021, 9:40 am

I find conversations with people except my son (diagnosed with Asperger's back when you could get that diagnosis), anyway, I find complicated conversations so frustrating that I mostly keep to subjects like the weather forecast.

Does anyone get extremely annoyed when they repeat the stuff that didn't answer the question, especially when you know they're wrong? Example: When we're about to change from daylight savings time and you try to figure out whether and *why* you need to get up earlier or later by the clock if you like to see the sunrise. And this guy says, "Okay, first off, the sun doesn't really come up at a different time (which maybe a 5-year-old needs to be told)...." and goes on to get to the wrong conclusion (by which time I had it figured out and wish that I hadn't brought the thing up). And you try to explain to him why he's wrong, and he starts over "Okay, let's go through it again. The sun doesn't really come up at a different time...."

After about the third time I just had to walk away and kind of punch my fist into the other hand. Just really agitated. I know it doesn't matter but there's just such a buildup of agitation unless I get away from it.



naturalplastic
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31 Jul 2021, 9:57 am

@Differentpage

Okay...If you had asked me this question I would respond like this:

If the sunrise was say around five am, but the next day was the daylight savings time change thing... and it was... Spring...which means you "spring forward"...which means that you set your clock an hour ahead....then...that will mean the next morning your clock will read five am at the time that it was four am the morning before.... So to rise (with the five am sun) would mean to get up an hour "later" according to your newly reset clock. So in the Spring you would get up at six am to view your sunrise that happened around five am the previous morning.

If it were autumn ...when you "fall back", then it would be the opposite. And you would set alarm to four am to catch the previous mornings' five am sunrise.

Would my above answer be an example of the kind of answer you want? Or would it be the kind of answer these people give you that you dont want?



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Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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31 Jul 2021, 10:18 am

That wouldn't be annoying. It's a carefully reasoned answer.

Also, if I pointed out to you that I thought you were wrong (which I don't), you would probably listen to my explanation and see if it could be right or explain where I went wrong, not keep repeating what you said before.

Edited to add: I thought about it and realize that maybe they think I just didn't understand what they said the first time, and that repetition will help, especially if they say it more slowly. Maybe I need to learn how to "play well with other people." (For the non-USA, this is sometimes written on report cards, whether a child plays well with others.) I still wish people would consider whether they might be wrong.



AngelL
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31 Jul 2021, 1:48 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

So youre the "Rain Man" stereotype of aspergers come to life. Lol!

So...how many digits of Pi have you memorized?


One of the advantages of being a social pariah with no friends is that you have lots of time to commit things to memory. :)

That said, and speaking of Rain Man (who I am most definitely not), I did get blacklisted from the blackjack tables in Vegas back when they still did that. They stopped that about thirty-five years ago, and now they just "flat-bet" you, which means that you can continue to play and you can bet any amount you want, but you can't vary the size of your bet. Anyway, I find it fascinating that I can count cards with the best of them - but I can deal the game ...adequately only. And the reason that I am only, at best, adequate is that...example time:

You have a 7 and a 6 for thirteen.
I say, "Player has 13."
You say, "Hit."
I turn over a five.

My brain doesn't go, "13 + 5 = 18"
My brain goes, "Okay, I have a 5 and a 6 and a 7. How do I want to arrange these? Oh look, the 5 is one less than the 6 and the seven is one more than the 6, so the average is 6 and 6 x 3 is 18"

Or you have a 7 and a 6 for thirteen and I turn over a 3. Once again, I don't say 13 + 3 = 16. Rather, I look for ways that all three numbers interact - in this case, after looking for unrelated patterns. Examples might be: They are all red or black, they form a 'run' like the 5,6,7 from the last example, they are multiples of two or three or four, all the cards are from the major suits (spades and hearts) - or the minor suits (clubs and diamonds), etc. Which slows me down to 'adequate' speed only.



ezbzbfcg2
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31 Jul 2021, 2:05 pm

It's like being on a staircase. You're on the 11th stair. These people are behind you on the 5th stair.

Because you're so far ahead and are seeing things they haven't gotten to yet, they have no way of knowing how much more up the stairs you are. So, when they can't make sense, they assume you must be behind them, still on stair number 2, and they're trying to bring you up to speed.

They don't know what they don't know, but you do. But since they can't fathom it yet, they assume you're behind them.

Basically, they've correctly deduced you're not at the same level, not on the same stair. Then, they erroneously presume since you're not at the same level, you must be behind them, rather than further ahead. I think it's partly ego, they can't accept they're behind someone. Partly ignorance, they can't process what you know yet because they haven't made it that far up.



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31 Jul 2021, 2:14 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
It's like being on a staircase. You're on the 11th stair. These people are behind you on the 5th stair.

Because you're so far ahead and are seeing things they haven't gotten to yet, they have no way of knowing how much more up the stairs you are. So, when they can't make sense, they assume you must be behind them, still on stair number 2, and they're trying to bring you up to speed.

They don't know what they don't know, but you do. But since they can't fathom it yet, they assume you're behind them.

Basically, they've correctly deduced you're not at the same level, not on the same stair. Then, they erroneously presume since you're not at the same level, you must be behind them, rather than further ahead. I think it's partly ego, they can't accept they're behind someone. Partly ignorance, they can't process what you know yet because they haven't made it that far up.


Thats probably what the OP is talking about. A good way to describe it. And I have been in that situation many times- folks are confused and think that you know less than they when in fact you know more than they do.



AngelL
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31 Jul 2021, 2:53 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
It's like being on a staircase. You're on the 11th stair. These people are behind you on the 5th stair.

Because you're so far ahead and are seeing things they haven't gotten to yet, they have no way of knowing how much more up the stairs you are. So, when they can't make sense, they assume you must be behind them, still on stair number 2, and they're trying to bring you up to speed.

They don't know what they don't know, but you do. But since they can't fathom it yet, they assume you're behind them.

Basically, they've correctly deduced you're not at the same level, not on the same stair. Then, they erroneously presume since you're not at the same level, you must be behind them, rather than further ahead. I think it's partly ego, they can't accept they're behind someone. Partly ignorance, they can't process what you know yet because they haven't made it that far up.


Spot on. Every word. In fact, you helped me to come up with an example that I probably don't need any longer, but what the heck...

The neural pathways in my head crisscross like a road map. When I try to map my way to a solution, I follow the neural pathways that seem natural to me - just like I drive. So, if I were going to drive to California from DC, I'd jump on I-40 and head west. That simply seems like the best way to me. Again, to me, it feels like an NT's directions would look something like this:

Alrighty, leaving DC, you want to head due south on I-95. When you get to Jacksonville, FL you're gonna wanna take a hard right onto I-10. Take another right when you get to New Orleans on I-55 North, which will take you to Chicago. When you get to Chicago, you'll take a left onto I-40 West heading for Des Moines, Iowa. There you're gonna wanna jump on I-35 heading south into Dallas/Fort Worth...etc.

Now to get to Dallas on I-35, one has to pass through Oklahoma City, OK, just like if I do on I-40. It's as if, when I get into Oklahoma City via I-40, I asked someone, just to be sure, if I was still on the right road to Los Angeles. The NT I asked says, "Heck no. In order to get to Los Angeles, you got to head south to Dallas/Fort Worth and then...

The map that their neural pathways make look NOTHING like mine. In this particular example, my way of getting to LA is much more efficient than an NT's. In other cases, an NT's wiring is more efficient than mine. It may appear that NT's brains are wired as 'default' and my brain is the anomaly - but of course it would since NT's set the default.



Harry Haller
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31 Jul 2021, 3:00 pm

AngelL wrote:
Spot on. Every word. In fact, you helped me to come up with an example that I probably don't need any longer, but what the heck...

The neural pathways in my head crisscross like a road map. When I try to map my way to a solution, I follow the neural pathways that seem natural to me - just like I drive

Right.

So there is no reason you cannot answer your own questions - which is what I do.
In fact, stopping to ask questions will slow you down - as I have learned.

Problem
Solved.



AngelL
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31 Jul 2021, 3:20 pm

Harry Haller wrote:

So there is no reason you cannot answer your own questions - which is what I do.
In fact, stopping to ask questions will slow you down - as I have learned.

Problem
Solved.


I wish it were that easy. While I certainly understand the idea 'it'll only slow you down', unfortunately there are times I cannot simply answer my own question. When I can - I do. I don't need the practice getting frustrated by people who refuse to answer the question I ask - I get loads of opportunities.

My last trip to the doctor he has me fill out a self-assessment for ADD. I am going to receive treatment for this condition if he believes I have it - which is going to consist of one more prescription to add to the pharmacy worth of drugs that I am currently prescribed. It is important then, to answer the questions accurately - at least it is important to me. How often do you...? The answers are, rarely, seldom, often, frequently. I have no idea what those mean within the context of these questions. Is rarely once a month? Once a week? Once a day? Once an hour?



Harry Haller
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31 Jul 2021, 3:34 pm

AngelL wrote:
My last trip to the doctor he has me fill out a self-assessment for ADD.

ADD is a clinical diagnosis; questionnaires are only aids so wouldn't sweat it too much.
A good clinician can spot ADD in exam very easily.

One way to look at it:
all diagnoses are provisional - until confirmed by benefit resulting from treatment.
Right diagnosis --> right treatment = benefit
Wrong diagnosis --> wrong treatment = no benefit
It's what follow up visits are for.

In the case of ADD the treatment is immediately decisively beneficial -- IF the diagnosis is correct.
After that is simply optimizing treatment.

So if truly ADD then it's a good thing as it is very treatable.
But it gets confused with obsessive-compulsive, as clinically these can appear similar, but which is more difficult to treat.



Harry Haller
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31 Jul 2021, 3:43 pm

AngelL wrote:
How often do you...? The answers are, rarely, seldom, often, frequently. I have no idea what those mean within the context of these questions. Is rarely once a month? Once a week? Once a day? Once an hour?

This is actually clinically useful.
If share this experience with the doc, it will sharpen the diagnostics.



AngelL
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31 Jul 2021, 5:53 pm

Harry Haller wrote:
My last trip to the doctor he has me fill out a self-assessment for ADD.

ADD is a clinical diagnosis; questionnaires are only aids so wouldn't sweat it too much.
A good clinician can spot ADD in exam very easily.

In the case of ADD the treatment is immediately decisively beneficial -- IF the diagnosis is correct.
After that is simply optimizing treatment.

So if truly ADD then it's a good thing as it is very treatable.
But it gets confused with obsessive-compulsive, as clinically these can appear similar, but which is more difficult to treat.[/quote]

~nods~ I was using the ADD self-assessment as an example of a question that I couldn't answer myself (i.e. What is rarely?) I have a new primary care physician and he was trying to figure out why my prescribing psych is writing me a script for Adderall. He started by asking me if I had ADD. I replied, "No." So he had me do a self-assessment because my answer was not the one he expected. The assessment answered the same way that I did.

Harry Haller wrote:
One way to look at it:
all diagnoses are provisional - until confirmed by benefit resulting from treatment.
Right diagnosis --> right treatment = benefit
Wrong diagnosis --> wrong treatment = no benefit


According to my current medical records I have no personality disorders and yet, I have been diagnosed incorrectly with:

Antisocial personality disorder
Avoidant personality disorder
Borderline personality disorder
Dependent personality disorder
Histrionic personality disorder
Obsessive-Compulsive personality disorder
Paranoid personality disorder
Schizoid personality disorder
Schizotypal personality disorder

Somehow they managed NOT to find Narcissistic personality disorder or I would have swept the Cluster B personality disorder along with Clusters A and B. And that's just the personality disorders - it goes from there. Like I said, eventually they were all seen as 'errors' but not before I've been on some drugs with some pretty nasty side effects. Which is my point for this post, that mistakes can be costly - and the patient is the one who ends up paying the consequences for those mistakes.



AngelL
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31 Jul 2021, 5:53 pm

Harry Haller wrote:
AngelL wrote:
How often do you...? The answers are, rarely, seldom, often, frequently. I have no idea what those mean within the context of these questions. Is rarely once a month? Once a week? Once a day? Once an hour?

This is actually clinically useful.
If share this experience with the doc, it will sharpen the diagnostics.


Thanks! Yeah, as I was writing this out I was thinking the same thing - so thanks for the confirmation. :)



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31 Jul 2021, 6:48 pm

There is a list of things that I understand, and a list of things that most neuroptypical people understand. The two lists overlap, but not enough for reliable communication. Call them lists A and B.

There is a list of things that I don't understand, and a list of things that most neuroptypical people don't understand. These two lists also overlap, but not enough. Call them lists C and D.

Lists B and C have lots of normal, social, how-things-are-done-round-here stuff in them. Lists A and D are full of obscure facts, technical stuff, special interest stuff etc.

When I ask about something from list C, I'm desperately hoping for an explanation in terms of things from list A. Neurotypical people often assume that since I can't possibly be asking about something so bleedin' obvious, I must really be asking about a related topic from list D. So they clumsily attempt to explain the wrong topic from list D (which they don't understand well) in terms of things from list B (which are completely incomprehensible to me).

If I'm very lucky, I'm talking to someone with enough experience of Us Lot to figure out how communication has broken down. Otherwise, it's up to me to steer the conversation back on track. That's so hard I usually just give up, frankly.


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31 Jul 2021, 7:02 pm

AngelL wrote:
According to my current medical records I have no personality disorders and yet, I have been diagnosed incorrectly with:

Antisocial personality disorder
Avoidant personality disorder
Borderline personality disorder
Dependent personality disorder
Histrionic personality disorder
Obsessive-Compulsive personality disorder
Paranoid personality disorder
Schizoid personality disorder
Schizotypal personality disorder

Somehow they managed NOT to find Narcissistic personality disorder or I would have swept the Cluster B personality disorder along with Clusters A and B. And that's just the personality disorders - it goes from there. Like I said, eventually they were all seen as 'errors' but not before I've been on some drugs with some pretty nasty side effects. Which is my point for this post, that mistakes can be costly - and the patient is the one who ends up paying the consequences for those mistakes.


You're not the first person I've met with a long list of contradictory "personality disorder" diagnoses, including a close friend who was actually bipolar instead. I swear they get used as a dump category by psychiatrists who don't really know what they're looking at, and which one you get is mainly down to current psychiatric fashion.


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01 Aug 2021, 1:10 am

The problem with normies is that they don't interpret questions literally. They tend to make assumptions about why people ask questions, and then they address this assumed reason instead of addressing the actual question.

So one way to prevent this is to imagine all the assumptions they might make about why you ask your question and explain that none of that is relevant to you or phrase the question in a way that shows that the assumptions aren't relevant.

I don't recommend bothering with that, however. I just try to avoid asking certain kinds of questions. Sometimes they don't even believe you when you correct their assumptions. It's all a huge waste of energy.