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carlos55
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13 Aug 2021, 2:08 pm

Looks like the "Incel" label continues to stalk hetrosexual autistic men who have problems forming relationships with women. The question what is a so called Incel? if your a straight autistic man who`s involunatary single is it fair to be labelled an Incel? probably not. Once again someone with autism giving us a bad name.

https://inews.co.uk/news/technology/bla ... ed-1149647

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Jake Davison was a self-confessed “black sheep” who felt he never fitted in and was attracted to the black pill ideology because he understood the suffering that underpins it, he told internet strangers in the weeks before the attack.

The apprentice tower and mobile crane operator wrote confessional social media posts explaining that he’d been raised in government housing by a single mother, describing himself as autistic and with no opportunities or friends. Last month he said he felt it was no longer possible to connect with people any more, saying he hadn’t been able to enjoy socialising since he was at school.

He spoke of his desire to meet a woman and raise a family together but acknowledged that he spent the vast majority of his time around men, saying he had a “few dozen acquaintances at work who I speak a half dozen words to here and there.”

Davison uploaded videos of himself weightlifting to YouTube and told fellow internet forum members about his intentions to get into boxing, often offering them advice on how to exercise and lose weight. He recorded himself explaining his frustration and being a virgin, and dismissed therapy as being “mostly for women complaining about their relationships or body image problems,” adding that he felt very little therapeutic practices catered to young incel men.

He also regularly posted his admiration for guns, particularly models that were legal to own in the US but not the UK, and spoke of his desire to move to the US or Canada.


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13 Aug 2021, 2:19 pm

People could just say they are single and looking...just the wording of 'involuntarily celibate' feels like it has toxicity just dripping from it. I can see how identifying with such a toxic label on top of having other issues could drive someone to madness.

Of course there are all kinds of toxic internet spaces for people to fester in that toxicity, that is just a breeding ground for more of these. One can be a heterosexual autistic man who has problems forming relationships, without taking part in that gross 'incel' mindset.

Identifying with such a toxic group, certainly isn't going to make it any easier to talk to a woman let alone form a relationship with one. Most prefer partners that don't have a dehumanizing hateful view about women...so well, you can see how the Incel thing doesn't help anyone. Also it's dangerous, when an active online ideology is helping to drive its community to mass shootings, its probably best not to associate oneself with it.



IsabellaLinton
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13 Aug 2021, 2:26 pm

I wonder if any of the victims were autistic.

The media conveniently omits that detail, when pertaining to the deceased or injured.

Autistic people are far more likely to be victimised, than to commit crime.

He killed his own mother. If he was autistic, it's likely she was too (genetics).



kraftiekortie
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13 Aug 2021, 2:40 pm

Nothing to do with autism. Everything to do with idiocy.



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13 Aug 2021, 5:27 pm

It seems like lot of incels are on the autistic spectrum. But I am positive sure lot of people on the spectrum are not incels.


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funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 6:16 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wonder if any of the victims were autistic.

The media conveniently omits that detail, when pertaining to the deceased or injured.

Autistic people are far more likely to be victimised, than to commit crime.

He killed his own mother. If he was autistic, it's likely she was too (genetics).


Anyone else's autism isn't relevant though, unless it turns out he was intentionally targeting autistic people.

That's why they would investigate or mention if any of the victims were, because they were passive participants; they didn't chose to be involved and their demographic traits only matter if they were a motive to the shooter.


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IsabellaLinton
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13 Aug 2021, 7:36 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wonder if any of the victims were autistic.

The media conveniently omits that detail, when pertaining to the deceased or injured.

Autistic people are far more likely to be victimised, than to commit crime.

He killed his own mother. If he was autistic, it's likely she was too (genetics).


Anyone else's autism isn't relevant though, unless it turns out he was intentionally targeting autistic people.

That's why they would investigate or mention if any of the victims were, because they were passive participants; they didn't chose to be involved and their demographic traits only matter if they were a motive to the shooter.


That's my point exactly.

The media will capitalise by exploiting this man's autism, when in reality he was incentivised by mental illness.

They don't take the opportunity to educate society about autism, or the fact that autism ≠ deviance, even in the discussion of specific or high-profile crimes with autistic perpetrators.

The discussion needs to be about mental health care resources, but unfortunately that's an expensive and systemic problem which is too complex to address in a financially-lucrative soundbite, or front page story.

I think autistic men, and all autistic people, should be furious if this becomes yet another opportunity for mass media to vilify autism or suggest that it played a role in this horrific crime.

If the victims' neurotypes are irrelevant, why does the killer's matter?

The issue here is mental illness, not autism.



domineekee
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13 Aug 2021, 7:52 pm

expert comment on speculation around mental health and autism diagnoses of the man who shot and killed multiple people in Plymouth

Quote:

“In relation to the sad events that took place last night in Plymouth, there has been speculation whether Jake Davison may have been suffering with mental health problems and/or had an autism diagnosis. At present, very little is known about the factors that led to last night’s events and speculation around pre-existing health problems or underlying conditions does not increase public understanding of the events. On the other hand, it may do much harm, by increasing stigma and blame that is then attributed to mental health problems and autism. While the UK has made great strides in recent years in reducing stigma and increasing acceptance of mental health conditions and autism, this hard-won shift in attitudes can easily be over-turned by careless comments and speculation.


https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-comment-on-speculation-around-mental-health-and-autism-diagnoses-of-the-man-who-shot-and-killed-multiple-people-in-plymouth/



StrayCat81
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13 Aug 2021, 7:54 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Looks like the "Incel" label continues to stalk hetrosexual autistic men who have problems forming relationships with women.

Makes sense though? Humans are intrinsically awful, and both incels and autistic people tend to not be very good at hiding their awfulness, so it's hard to differentiate between them. NTs are more natural at hiding it.



funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 7:56 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wonder if any of the victims were autistic.

The media conveniently omits that detail, when pertaining to the deceased or injured.

Autistic people are far more likely to be victimised, than to commit crime.

He killed his own mother. If he was autistic, it's likely she was too (genetics).


Anyone else's autism isn't relevant though, unless it turns out he was intentionally targeting autistic people.

That's why they would investigate or mention if any of the victims were, because they were passive participants; they didn't chose to be involved and their demographic traits only matter if they were a motive to the shooter.


That's my point exactly.

The media will capitalise by exploiting this man's autism, when in reality he was incentivised by mental illness.

They don't take the opportunity to educate society about autism, or the fact that autism ≠ deviance, even in the discussion of specific or high-profile crimes with autistic perpetrators.

The discussion needs to be about mental health care resources, but unfortunately that's an expensive and systemic problem which is too complex to address in a financially-lucrative soundbite, or front page story.

I think autistic men, and all autistic people, should be furious if this becomes yet another opportunity for mass media to vilify autism or suggest that it played a role in this horrific crime.

If the victims' neurotypes are irrelevant, why does the killer's matter?

The issue here is mental illness, not autism.


Haven't virtually all of these incel mass shooters also been autistic?

I don't want to have autistic people vilified, but if they're all autistic then it seems that autism is relevant to understanding how this mental illness progresses. The better we understand what motivates these people the better we can try to intervene before it happens, but given the rate at which autism occurs within this cohort then it shouldn't be dismissed as irrelevant.


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The_Znof
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13 Aug 2021, 8:20 pm

all the ones blasted over the news cycle are identified Autistic.

Image



IsabellaLinton
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13 Aug 2021, 8:21 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wonder if any of the victims were autistic.

The media conveniently omits that detail, when pertaining to the deceased or injured.

Autistic people are far more likely to be victimised, than to commit crime.

He killed his own mother. If he was autistic, it's likely she was too (genetics).


Anyone else's autism isn't relevant though, unless it turns out he was intentionally targeting autistic people.

That's why they would investigate or mention if any of the victims were, because they were passive participants; they didn't chose to be involved and their demographic traits only matter if they were a motive to the shooter.


That's my point exactly.

The media will capitalise by exploiting this man's autism, when in reality he was incentivised by mental illness.

They don't take the opportunity to educate society about autism, or the fact that autism ≠ deviance, even in the discussion of specific or high-profile crimes with autistic perpetrators.

The discussion needs to be about mental health care resources, but unfortunately that's an expensive and systemic problem which is too complex to address in a financially-lucrative soundbite, or front page story.

I think autistic men, and all autistic people, should be furious if this becomes yet another opportunity for mass media to vilify autism or suggest that it played a role in this horrific crime.

If the victims' neurotypes are irrelevant, why does the killer's matter?

The issue here is mental illness, not autism.


Haven't virtually all of these incel mass shooters also been autistic?

I don't want to have autistic people vilified, but if they're all autistic then it seems that autism is relevant to understanding how this mental illness progresses. The better we understand what motivates these people the better we can try to intervene before it happens, but given the rate at which autism occurs within this cohort then it shouldn't be dismissed as irrelevant.


I don't keep stats on Incel murderers, or any murders, but what you present is a logical fallacy.

Even if all Incel killers are autistic (which is debatable), it does not mean that all autistic people are Incel killers.

The media spins it otherwise. I made a thread about this issue a few weeks back, called "Men and Masking".

Based on the information I've seen about this individual, he was a deeply troubled person regardless of his autism. Autism itself doesn't make a person kill. Even "lonerism" doesn't make a person kill. His actions suggest psychopathy, which can occur in an autistic population as randomly as it does for neurotypicals.



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13 Aug 2021, 8:26 pm

carlos55 wrote:
[...] The question what is a so called Incel? if your a straight autistic man who`s involunatary single is it fair to be labelled an Incel? probably not. [...]
Wrong.

According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, an "Incel" is a person (usually a man) who regards himself or herself as being involuntarily celibate and typically expresses extreme resentment and hostility toward those who are sexually active.

Because this definition does not specifically exclude people with autism, it is both fair and right to assume that the definition includes (by default) people with autism.



funeralxempire
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13 Aug 2021, 8:28 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I wonder if any of the victims were autistic.

The media conveniently omits that detail, when pertaining to the deceased or injured.

Autistic people are far more likely to be victimised, than to commit crime.

He killed his own mother. If he was autistic, it's likely she was too (genetics).


Anyone else's autism isn't relevant though, unless it turns out he was intentionally targeting autistic people.

That's why they would investigate or mention if any of the victims were, because they were passive participants; they didn't chose to be involved and their demographic traits only matter if they were a motive to the shooter.


That's my point exactly.

The media will capitalise by exploiting this man's autism, when in reality he was incentivised by mental illness.

They don't take the opportunity to educate society about autism, or the fact that autism ≠ deviance, even in the discussion of specific or high-profile crimes with autistic perpetrators.

The discussion needs to be about mental health care resources, but unfortunately that's an expensive and systemic problem which is too complex to address in a financially-lucrative soundbite, or front page story.

I think autistic men, and all autistic people, should be furious if this becomes yet another opportunity for mass media to vilify autism or suggest that it played a role in this horrific crime.

If the victims' neurotypes are irrelevant, why does the killer's matter?

The issue here is mental illness, not autism.


Haven't virtually all of these incel mass shooters also been autistic?

I don't want to have autistic people vilified, but if they're all autistic then it seems that autism is relevant to understanding how this mental illness progresses. The better we understand what motivates these people the better we can try to intervene before it happens, but given the rate at which autism occurs within this cohort then it shouldn't be dismissed as irrelevant.


I don't keep stats on Incel murderers, or any murders, but what you present is a logical fallacy.

Even if all Incel killers are autistic (which is debatable), it does not mean that all autistic people are Incel killers.

The media spins it otherwise. I made a thread about this issue a few weeks back, called "Men and Masking".

Based on the information I've seen about this individual, he was a deeply troubled person regardless of his autism. Autism itself doesn't make a person kill. Even "lonerism" doesn't make a person kill. His actions suggest psychopathy, which can occur in an autistic population as randomly as it does for neurotypicals.


Where did I suggest anything resembling all autistic people are Incel killers?
I didn't.

That doesn't mean that autism isn't likely relevant to understanding what motivates incel killers. Understanding what motivates these types of incidents involves examining factors that contribute and it seems counter-productive to dismiss one of the more widely documented traits.


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IsabellaLinton
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13 Aug 2021, 8:39 pm

I thought that Incel lunatics target women, as a way of taking out their anger for not getting laid.

This man doesn't even seem to fit that pattern.

He killed his mother (I'm assuming he didn't want to sleep with her), a baby (ditto -- despite her gender), two men, and a 66 year old woman. This sounds more like insanity to me, than a targeted crime against women or an act of sexual frustration.

I know he posted an Incel video and talked about being a virgin. I don't give a rat's arse about that. He knew his video would circulate on mass media whichever way he chose to claim victimhood. He could have talked about being a Trump supporter, or a gun rights advocate, or a someone who was fed up with Brexit. Claiming Incel or loneliness as an excuse for his behaviour is just a scapegoat.

No one should correlate autism as a causative factor.

If a member on our board committed an egregious crime and said it was because of his / her autism, we would all defend ourselves, saying we aren't like that.

I don't know why people allow it from the media.

These incidents should elicit protest from the autistic community, and autism agencies worldwide.



StrayCat81
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13 Aug 2021, 8:46 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
The better we understand what motivates these people the better we can try to intervene before it happens, but given the rate at which autism occurs within this cohort then it shouldn't be dismissed as irrelevant.

Hmm, I don't think anyone is seriously interested in preventing things like that? People just use these kind of things to do some virtue signalling and feel better about themselves. Autistic people might end up as convenient scapegoat here though.