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Joe90
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21 Sep 2021, 4:55 pm

It seems that a lot of people with autism are actually more capable of speaking and expressing their thoughts and feelings than people with disabilities like severe intellectual impairments.

Whenever I look up intellectual disabilities on YouTube, there's very rarely videos that come up of people with intellectual disabilities, but there are about a million videos of autistic people of all different types of ages and functioning talking to the camera about themselves and their lives and feelings and spreading awareness of autism. But you very seldom get much information or awareness on people severely mentally disabled but not on the autism spectrum.

I only watched one video of an adult with intellectual disability, but it was just of the individual's carer advertising the care home, and the intellectually disabled adult was in a wheelchair with her arm stretched out touching the carer's ear.

Can people with intellectual disabilities be more neurologically disabled than some autistic people? Why isn't there as much awareness on the intellectually disabled who need 24/7 care? Some intellectually disabled people never talk, while a lot of autistic people do talk or may learn to talk even if delayed.

Just a shower thought.

Disclaimer: I do not mean all autistic people.


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Edna3362
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21 Sep 2021, 5:15 pm

Intellectual disability, while definitely a disability, it's also somewhat a symptom of other conditions as well.
So it's quite complicated and somewhat confusing to which or what to advocate and give awareness to.

The history of intellectual disability is darker and extended further than autism to be honest.
It is one of the first of the many things humans are trying to prevent. At all.


And yes. In fact, I've known more disabled people with ID.
How disabled can also vary -- so yes, it's possible for someone with ID to be more disabled than someone with AS.

Usually it's one perpetually stuck at specific point of developmental -- the 5 year old in still growing and then adult body kind of way.
Or the inability to make a lot of cognitive leaps -- or worse, one that degrades or relapses when it had improve, only to have to relearn all over; not only academics but also daily living skills.

Some are more forgetful. Some are more absentminded.
Yet is generally more sociable -- usually at least as sociable as their respective mental ages.

The severe forms intellectual disabilities are delayed/stunted across the board, and practically physically disabled.
Worst ones are basically bedridden and possibly irresponsive.


And is somewhat shared this common trait: whatever it was, it is generally the opposite of the trait of over/excitability -- poor stimulus response, poor comprehension, poor attention spans, etc.
It's at least distinguishable from someone with ADD, hyposensitivity, cognitive disorders, processing disorders, and learning disabilities.



Mild ones can pass NT. Can live independent lives. Their 'very best' is usually par with 'just enough'.
But I cannot elaborate more on that.


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Joe90
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21 Sep 2021, 7:03 pm

The way I see it, you need some intellect to have some particular social skills and some social skills to have some particular intellect. So both people with autism and people with intellectual disabilities (I know you can have both but I'm just talking about the two separately) have social awkwardness but for different reasons. IQ and social skills can overlap. A non-autistic person with downs syndrome can be naive, innocent and whatever intellect they lack can interfere with presenting some social skills, while a person with autism and a high/average IQ may use their intellect to present some social skills.
Also downs syndrome is more tolerated and understood by the general population so that's why they get more accepted, although they can still be at risk of being bullied by their peers.


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kraftiekortie
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21 Sep 2021, 7:30 pm

There happen to be plenty of autistic people who are also intellectually impaired. It used to be said, before the Spectrum idea took hold, that at least half of all autistic people never learn to speak.

Fragile X is a prime example of a disorder which has a high frequency of both autism and intellectual disability.

There are MANY vlogs about autistic people who are also intellectually disabled. Some strongly advocate for autistic people; others don't. There are some intellectually-disabled autistic folks who have vlogs who advocate for themselves.

There is a wide range of functional ability within those who are on the Autistic Spectrum. Just like there is in the general population.


You can be autistic and confined to a wheelchair and not toilet trained. And you can be an autistic person who is a professor of quantum physics.



Edna3362
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22 Sep 2021, 7:35 am

It's not simply a matter of IQ.
It's also about developmental milestones and adaptive ability.

And also throughly studied.
There's a huge blur in nature -- is somewhat studied in same yet inversed fascination in intellectual giftedness.
Yet a lot of blantant ways around nurture and circumstances.
There are many ways to acquire ID -- pre and post natally.

But just as it can be acquired it is also equally preventable.
One of the largest was some nationwide study and their diet -- preventing ID through hypothyroidism with iodized salt.
Contrary to common belief, this does not violate ND proponents like some people claims -- but I won't get to that -- it will derail the topic.


Yet serving those who are born with ID -- from whatever source it came from -- is another different matter, which I think more relevant in this particular topic.

Daily living with ID is harder. But not much in socializing and some emotional aspects.

With ID alone, they're no more innately vulnerable than any younger NTs matching their mental ages.
ID plus other conditions -- is other conditions' vulnerabilities in socialization and emotional aspects with ID.



As for downs syndrome and it's associations... Meh.
One of the reasons why they're tolerated is because of the viral happy song video -- and is stereotyped to be cheerful and sociable. :lol:

And so the viral thing spreads at the time... around 2014.
'Inspiring'' other parent's advocacy to of that positive tones.

Heck, there's Rosa's Law from the US -- where the label mental retardation should be legally changed into intellectual disability instead.
The ones who started it? Parents with a downs syndrome child. The law is named after their kid with DS.


And contrary to autism???
Many here already knew those damnable stories -- where it went and where it is now.
Thoughts belonging to autism representation and activism -- not here and not in this topic.


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autisticelders
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23 Sep 2021, 5:53 am

there is a catch to all of this "intellectually disabled" stuff. intellectual ability is determined through testing understanding of spoken words, and responses, among other things.
Since many autistic (my diagnosing psychologist said 60 percent) folk never speak, how is it known whether such folks have a communication deficit that could be helped with supportive and alternative communication techniques - look at Helen Keller- measure of intellect is not precise science any more than giving autism diagnoses is.

Many of the "warrior parents" in autism groups are those who are trying to advocate and help, or get help with "intellectually disabled" offspring. There are more autistic folks labeled ID than not.

Previous diagnostic parameters have been part of the reason the ID percentage is so high, it simply was not recognized as autism if one could speak.

As more people are accessing diagnosis, especially the over 5 million adults today in the USA who are autistic and never suspected because they arrived in the world before autism was even in the DSM, this will probably change.

It seems to be more a question of finding ways to communicate with nonspeaking others. I have severe visual and audio impairments which cause me to struggle "in real life" but thank goodness I have learned to read and write.
If I was dyslexic and could not speak, I would be classified as ID too.

The spectrum is much wider than many people suspect. ( at least I think so)



kraftiekortie
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23 Sep 2021, 6:03 am

Yep. You can be nonverbal, yet a genius.

The Spectrum is vast, indeed.



Edna3362
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23 Sep 2021, 6:27 am

autisticelders wrote:
there is a catch to all of this "intellectually disabled" stuff. intellectual ability is determined through testing understanding of spoken words, and responses, among other things.
Since many autistic (my diagnosing psychologist said 60 percent) folk never speak, how is it known whether such folks have a communication deficit that could be helped with supportive and alternative communication techniques - look at Helen Keller- measure of intellect is not precise science any more than giving autism diagnoses is.

Many of the "warrior parents" in autism groups are those who are trying to advocate and help, or get help with "intellectually disabled" offspring. There are more autistic folks labeled ID than not.

Previous diagnostic parameters have been part of the reason the ID percentage is so high, it simply was not recognized as autism if one could speak.

As more people are accessing diagnosis, especially the over 5 million adults today in the USA who are autistic and never suspected because they arrived in the world before autism was even in the DSM, this will probably change.

It seems to be more a question of finding ways to communicate with nonspeaking others. I have severe visual and audio impairments which cause me to struggle "in real life" but thank goodness I have learned to read and write.
If I was dyslexic and could not speak, I would be classified as ID too.

The spectrum is much wider than many people suspect. ( at least I think so)

Dyspraxia is very easily mistaken for intellectual disability, even with dyspraxia alone without autism or any language and communication issues.

Severe dyspraxia can look like severe cerebral palsy. Nonetheless, it is a learning disability that can cause physical disability.
Add autism into the mix, it'll easier to mistake it for someone with intellectual disability.

As long as any form of verbal comprehension or attempts of communication is missed or dismissed, they'd assume ID.


And dyspraxia is common in autism.
Severe dyspraxia is a common cause of nonverbal autism.
A lot of those labeled with 'severe autism' is mostly to do with severe dyspraxia.

It's not their language comprehension -- it's their physical manipulation of their own body.
They're the "stuck in the body" type of disabled severe autism.

If it's just speech, it's oral apraxia.


I think the idea of equating a person's language eloquence to intellect or even the existence of thought is dying.


Then there's aphasia -- which is really about language comprehension and expression issues instead of oral motor issues. Or motor skills at all.
They are actually non-verbal in and out.

It's also not easy for them to teach language unless they're also hyperlexic, working with nonverbal pattern work arounds or gifted in nonverbal development. :lol:
It's also not easy to communicate with them with verbal medium -- which is speech and writing.


But... Combine aphasia and dyspraxia together... :lol: Again, easier to mistake for intellectual disability.
Add autism into the mix... It's predictable to me, really.


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kraftiekortie
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23 Sep 2021, 8:13 am

I have a generalized "body dyspraxia." It's mild, but it's evident. It used to make me seem "disabled," though that has lessened over the course of my life.

I was a full-brown, nonverbal autistic person, oblivious to the world around me, until I was 5 1/2 years old. Then I became sort of a classic "Aspergian" after I developed speech. There is documented history of this sort of thing in people other than myself.

I don't believe I had "verbal dyspraxia/apraxia" because I spoke in full sentences only a few months (at most) after I said my first words.



jimbo Jones
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23 Sep 2021, 9:12 am

The original post is spot on with my views in my new post if you think about it.



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23 Sep 2021, 9:44 am

Joe90 wrote:
... Whenever I look up intellectual disabilities on YouTube, there's very rarely videos that come up of people with intellectual disabilities, but there are about a million videos of autistic people of all different types of ages and functioning talking to the camera about themselves and their lives and feelings and spreading awareness of autism.  But you very seldom get much information or awareness on people severely mentally disabled but not on the autism spectrum...
This may be for two reasons: (1) Making video recordings of people with severe mental disabilities may be considered 'exploitation'; and (2) people with severe mental disabilities may not have access to video recording equipment, especially those in extended-care facilities or living in poverty.



naturalplastic
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07 Nov 2021, 2:10 am

For most of my life it was the other way around. Folks were more aware of the thing described by the R word than they were of autism.

Today its reversing. And Utube is one reason for the reversal because there are quite a few autistic Utubers who do their thing, and do it about autism.

Folks with Downs syndrome just simply dont make Utube programs about themselves. They dont have the technical, linguistic, nor verbal, skills to do it. And they also dont have the inclination. Theyre not aware of podcasting, or Utube, or the like. And frankly folks with Down Syndrome i have met just arent as egotistical as either NTs or normal IQ autistics (including moi) are. Even if they had the brains to put together a Utube show about "my experience with Downs Syndrome" they just wouldnt have the inclination.



Joe90
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07 Nov 2021, 2:30 am

naturalplastic wrote:
For most of my life it was the other way around. Folks were more aware of the thing described by the R word than they were of autism.

Today its reversing. And Utube is one reason for the reversal because there are quite a few autistic Utubers who do their thing, and do it about autism.

Folks with Downs syndrome just simply dont make Utube programs about themselves. They dont have the technical, linguistic, nor verbal, skills to do it. And they also dont have the inclination. Theyre not aware of podcasting, or Utube, or the like. And frankly folks with Down Syndrome i have met just arent as egotistical as either NTs or normal IQ autistics (including moi) are. Even if they had the brains to put together a Utube show about "my experience with Downs Syndrome" they just wouldnt have the inclination.


I think people with downs syndrome have their own social challenges that autistics are unaware of, and that to us they seem just as normal as NTs. But from volunteering with teenagers with cognitive disabilities in the past, I've learnt that every ND is affected socially to some degree even if it's different to autism-related social difficulties. You can't really have a low IQ/disabled with intellectual dysfunction but be 100% adept socially. It's going to affect some of your social abilities too.
There's no "I have intellectual disabilities and I can't find a job or I can't do a job and I can only babble like a baby and require care for the rest of my life, but hey I can hold a conversation with normal people and go out and make friends and live a normal life."
I think people with intellectual disabilities and downs syndrome are more understood by society so it makes it easier for them to be accepted even if they aren't 100% socially adept. Although people with downs syndrome can still be targets for bullies and called "stupid", at least they don't get called "weird" or "psychopath". People are more afraid of autism, probably due to the meltdowns and aggression we are famously known to have, where as I don't think meltdowns are so common among people with downs or ID.

Do autistic people with downs get more accepted by society because they have downs syndrome? Usually autistic people with ID don't, because ID just brings out their autism symptoms more.

It's a very complicated topic and is like trying to explain the colour blue - you know it when you see it except it takes a genius with excellent vocabulary skills to actually explain the social differences between autism and other ND. I'm no genius with excellent vocabulary skills but I know what I'm talking about.


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07 Nov 2021, 7:58 am

One of the core features of autism is skill scatter. Which means that an autistic person can be really impaired in one way, but very skilled in another way.

This is far less common for ID. Most people with ID are impaired to roughly the same degree for all cognitive abilities. If that impairment is severe, then they won't have the ability to make their own Youtube videos for the same reason they don't have the ability to read and write, go shopping without a caregiver, or any other skill that requires cognitive ability beyond what would be consistent for their intellectual level.

As a result, the only people with ID who tend to be doing self-advocacy and awareness raising activities are people with mild ID (IQ roughly between 70-50), because they're the only ones who understand enough to know how to do those things.

I've also found that the self-advocates with ID that I've met tend to prefer in-person activism to online activism. Whereas a lot of autistic people have strengths with and are drawn to electronic technology, and find in-person interaction way more difficult.