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thinkinginpictures
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24 Oct 2021, 2:37 pm

On WrongPlanet as well as in many European countries, there's an anti-discrimination rule/law saying that you cannot say or write your opinion about other people's religious beliefs.

I think it is wrong to protect people because of their beliefs - political as well as religious beliefs.

It is a CHOICE - you make a deliberate and FREE choice whether to subscribe to a certain set of political or religious beliefs or opinions, as well as to share it with the public.

It's a personal and free choice. But if you choose to share your set of beliefs or opinions I think you shouldn't receive any protective status for that reason.

Actually it's discrimination that you cannot write what you want about religious people, but if religious people say "all communists/socialists are evil", that's perfectly fine. No law is protecting socialists, atheists, liberals, conservatives or anyone else who may not be religious. But the law protects people for their religion.

Again, religion is a choice. It is as much a choice as your political opinions.
It should not have any status of special protection from the rest of us.



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 24 Oct 2021, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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24 Oct 2021, 2:50 pm

I would imagine the amount of religiously motivated bloodshed over the years might play a big role in why religion is expected to be treated with kid gloves.


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thinkinginpictures
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24 Oct 2021, 3:11 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I would imagine the amount of religiously motivated bloodshed over the years might play a big role in why religion is expected to be treated with kid gloves.


That's not an argument. Quite the opposite needs to be done.
Religions should lose all protection, BECAUSE of their bloodshed.

Or should we also let convicted murderers walk around freely, because they're willing to kill?



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 24 Oct 2021, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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24 Oct 2021, 3:16 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I would imagine the amount of religiously motivated bloodshed over the years might play a big role in why religion is expected to be treated with kid gloves.


That's not an argument. Quite the opposite needs to be done.
Religions should lose all protection, BECAUSE of their bloodshed.

Or should we let murderers walk around freely, because they're willing to kill?


I'm not saying it's a good argument, I'm saying it's the reason the norm became so deeply ingrained.


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24 Oct 2021, 6:17 pm

In America, religious groups came here because they were being actively persecuted and isolated because of their particular practices. American laws reflect the spirit of early colonists and the need to keep GOVERNMENT from interfering with church (or religion as a whole). The main point of it all is to allow everyone the freedom to believe as they will.

I understand that you may dislike religion, but you are free to dislike it. No person is allowed to intrude on one’s right to free thought. You are free in the public sphere to persuade someone to your view on faith. You are free to discuss and debate it. You are NOT free to break someone’s door in and impose your ideas at gunpoint. And that is all religious freedom means here.

Personally, I don’t really feel my faith has ever been “protected” on WP because whenever I felt there was something threatening regarding my sincerely held beliefs, mods were, like, there’s nothing wrong with that. Or if I believed something and another user was blatantly baiting me to say something that would offend someone who believed differently, I was basically told to get over it, that those ideas aren’t welcome on WP, and no one is forcing me to say anything. While true, it creates an imbalance that DOES force Christians to endure abuse on WP when a Christian isn’t allowed to respond. If atheists and others who fundamentally disagree with Christians can enjoy a level of protection and have a safe space on WP, then it’s only right that Christians are afforded the same. And not just Christians, but ANY person of any faith. If the point of WP is to maintain a positive environment for all on the spectrum, then Christians, Sikhs, Muslims, Wiccans, Satanists, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., should not be made to feel unwelcome.

I really don’t mind debating my beliefs, and I have thick enough skin that a little ridicule isn’t going to affect me. But not everyone can handle it. I recall a JW on here who genuinely seemed like a nice guy, and I may have been a little heavy-handed myself in pointing out some things about his faith that just didn’t add up. He ended up leaving WP, but I think a lot of it was that he was using WP as a way to promote Watchtower literature. There was a lot of pressure more from the atheists on here, whereas I eventually just got bored with it and left him alone. I think most people just got tired of engaging him and he went away. He wasn’t a bad guy, though, and he might still be active here if he’d felt that WP was friendlier towards religious diversity.

There are positive approaches to handling a diversity of thought and faith. Saying “Your God is a genocidal maniac. How can you believe in a loving God when he tells you to wipe out entire nations?” takes a much different and confrontational tone than, say, “I understand Jesus wanted Christians to love everyone. How is Jesus’ command to love your neighbor consistent with God’s command to displace the Semitic peoples of Canaan?” It’s basically the same question asking for the same response. But one is more authentic in inviting a dialogue, whereas the other is purposefully demeaning and condescending. No Christian would accept the premise that God is maniacal or genocidal, OR if he did accept the premise of a genocidal God he would reject the premise that genocide is evil by logical necessity (for example, isolating hundreds of thousands of violent criminals in prisons could, by some definitions, be seen as a genocidal act by classifying violent people as a distinct ethnic group. Does that mean it is evil to incarcerate violent offenders? If incarceration/correction/re-education of many thousands of violent people is acceptable, and if they meet some definition of an ethnic group, then genocide cannot be inherently evil). So if you know Christians reject the premise, it doesn’t make much sense to bring up the issue by being deliberately hostile. Remove the offensive language but get straight to the point—Christians accept the Old Testament and the displacement of tribes during the conquest of Canaan because it was God’s command. Christians won’t dispute that. But “genocide” and “maniacal” terms will be disputed from the outset. You gain nothing by going on the attack through hostile attitudes.

And I only speak from my own experience with one or two limited examples. I’ve never seen much in the way of open hostility towards other religions besides Christianity, but I suppose it’s because there proportionately fewer people from other religions who actively discuss it. I’d prefer to spend more time here, but things at my job just got super-crazy and my time went away. I’m only here now because I’m trying to catch up on several weeks of not getting enough sleep.



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25 Oct 2021, 3:19 pm

This is a really good question. I think it all stems from the constitutional right to religious beliefs declared 245 years ago. Although religious protections just seems like an excuse for people to do a bunch of selfish stuff. Like how "religious exemptions" for the COVID vaccine are a thing when the vaccine is meant to and shown that it can help with a pandemic that has killed many people and continues to kill people who are unvaccinated. At the beginning of the pandemic I was hoping that something as serious as that would get all the anti vaxxers to get a vaccine for once in their lives, but against all odds, their religion is still way too important.

I'm not religious at all and I have reasons for that. I suppose that telling people why I'm not a believer won't get them to be like me. But exercising your beliefs in a way that causes problems for other people is what really gets under my skin.



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25 Oct 2021, 3:32 pm

I often had trouble with religion as it simply did not compute. I read much of the Bible as a teenager in an attempt to understand it, and realized that it was basically 66 different books cobbled together. Each one written by different people, with different histories, rules, expectations, definitions of higher authority, etc.

I then proceeded to (foolishly in hindsight) explain this view to religious people in my life, which caused some resentment from them, as I had "read the Bible" but instead of believing it, I found it be riddled with logical fallacies.

I could not understand how they could have "faith" in what seemed to be a bunch of disconnected 2000 year old fairy tales. I am a bit older and I realize most people don't really care if the Bible makes sense they just want something that makes them feel cared for and comforted by their deity. They don't want to get drawn into a defensive debate over the many contradictions in the Bible.



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25 Oct 2021, 5:51 pm

I don't know how it is in other countries, but there is a reasonable limit to religious protection here in Canada. Sure, someone has the right to their religion, and to express their beliefs. However, honour killings for example, aren't allowed because there is a hierarchy of rights and someone's right to live supersedes someone else's right to "religious freedom". Religious freedom doesn't absolve someone of things that are crimes.

Generally speaking, people can believe what they want to believe, and look, dress and act in accordance with those beliefs, because no one should feel like their rights are infringed upon in that regard, but that's only if they stay within the realm of what can be considered reasonable. In the vast majority of cases, that line isn't crossed, so it's a non-issue. In the cases where it is crossed, it's generally pretty obvious to any reasonable person that such an individual did in fact cross a line. That said, yeah, it's not as if people could just site "religious freedom" as a get out of jail free card for absolutely anything.



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25 Oct 2021, 5:53 pm

I don't understand why religion is a right than a privilege.


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25 Oct 2021, 5:59 pm

I do not support a ban on religion, but we need ultra-strict hate speech laws similar to Germany's and Sweden's.


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25 Oct 2021, 7:53 pm

Tross wrote:
Generally speaking, people can believe what they want to believe, and look, dress and act in accordance with those beliefs, because no one should feel like their rights are infringed upon in that regard, but that's only if they stay within the realm of what can be considered reasonable. In the vast majority of cases, that line isn't crossed, so it's a non-issue. In the cases where it is crossed, it's generally pretty obvious to any reasonable person that such an individual did in fact cross a line. That said, yeah, it's not as if people could just site "religious freedom" as a get out of jail free card for absolutely anything.
Unfortunately people who have kids are allowed to be super strict with them in the name of their religion. Lots of teenagers and even people over 18 who aren’t able to have as much of a relationship with their significant other bc of their parents. I state that bc I dated a girl who’s parents were like that. It was frustrating.

And a lot of people here in America who think that people should have the right to not get vaccinated even though it is literally a matter of life or death for some people. In a lot of cases, that is also because of people’s religious beliefs.

Also, homophobic people who cause mental and emotional harm to the LGBT.



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25 Oct 2021, 8:03 pm

CubsBullsBears wrote:
Tross wrote:
Generally speaking, people can believe what they want to believe, and look, dress and act in accordance with those beliefs, because no one should feel like their rights are infringed upon in that regard, but that's only if they stay within the realm of what can be considered reasonable. In the vast majority of cases, that line isn't crossed, so it's a non-issue. In the cases where it is crossed, it's generally pretty obvious to any reasonable person that such an individual did in fact cross a line. That said, yeah, it's not as if people could just site "religious freedom" as a get out of jail free card for absolutely anything.
Unfortunately people who have kids are allowed to be super strict with them in the name of their religion. Lots of teenagers and even people over 18 who aren’t able to have as much of a relationship with their significant other bc of their parents. I state that bc I dated a girl who’s parents were like that. It was frustrating.

And a lot of people here in America who think that people should have the right to not get vaccinated even though it is literally a matter of life or death for some people. In a lot of cases, that is also because of people’s religious beliefs.

Also, homophobic people who cause mental and emotional harm to the LGBT.


My ex's mother was like that.


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25 Oct 2021, 9:48 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I don't understand why religion is a right than a privilege.
Religion is deeply ingrained in the worldview of those who have one, and is very often at the core of their values and beliefs. If you start telling people they no longer have freedom of religion, we would have a riot on our hands. The places that manage to get away with not allowing that right also tend to get away with not allowing certain other rights to their citizens, but there's a reason for that...
CubsBullsBears wrote:
Tross wrote:
Generally speaking, people can believe what they want to believe, and look, dress and act in accordance with those beliefs, because no one should feel like their rights are infringed upon in that regard, but that's only if they stay within the realm of what can be considered reasonable. In the vast majority of cases, that line isn't crossed, so it's a non-issue. In the cases where it is crossed, it's generally pretty obvious to any reasonable person that such an individual did in fact cross a line. That said, yeah, it's not as if people could just site "religious freedom" as a get out of jail free card for absolutely anything.
Unfortunately people who have kids are allowed to be super strict with them in the name of their religion. Lots of teenagers and even people over 18 who aren’t able to have as much of a relationship with their significant other bc of their parents. I state that bc I dated a girl who’s parents were like that. It was frustrating.

And a lot of people here in America who think that people should have the right to not get vaccinated even though it is literally a matter of life or death for some people. In a lot of cases, that is also because of people’s religious beliefs.

Also, homophobic people who cause mental and emotional harm to the LGBT.
Yeah, the drawback is there is quite a bit of controversy when it comes to religious freedoms. On the plus side, children too young to consent are given blood transfusions regardless of whether they get the consent from the parents.

As for the COVID thing, it seems all kinds of people are looking for any excuse they can think of to not get vaccinated, but Jesus never said anything about vaccines, nor did any prophet in the Old Testament, so if any of the Abrahamic religions forbid vaccines, it's Islam...though I'm skeptical even the Quran says anything to that effect. I can see the Jehova's Witnesses making a scene over a vaccine mandate, but I highly doubt they account for the vast majority of naysayers out there. Are you absolutely certain they're objecting for religious reasons, and not "religious reasons"? :roll:



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25 Oct 2021, 10:00 pm

Tross wrote:
Are you absolutely certain they're objecting for religious reasons, and not "religious reasons"? :roll:
One thing I do know is that I have heard the term "religious exemptions" with COVID vaccines. It pissed me off when I first heard of such a thing.



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25 Oct 2021, 10:13 pm

Here's an example of someone who refuses any vaccine because of his beliefs.



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26 Oct 2021, 4:21 pm

Only Jehovah's Witnesses and "Christian Scientists" should have a clear "religious exemption" against getting the vaccine. Modern medicine violates their religious beliefs. They do not get blood transfusions.

These other people just do not trust the government or big pharma (which is understandable but unfortunate).