10 year old autistics suicide - racist, ableist school

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Kraichgauer
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11 Nov 2021, 11:07 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Anyone who's ever been bullied or belittled while growing up can verify to you the causation of her suicide.


No, you can't. Are you a psychic? Perhaps a medium who can commune with the dead? That's the claim you're making here, and it's not one that you can support. Most people who are bullied do not commit suicide, so there is no direct link, only inference and speculation.


Most don't, but enough do. Plus we have what her family says to back it up.


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Dox47
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11 Nov 2021, 11:54 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Most don't, but enough do. Plus we have what her family says to back it up.


Do they have a note or other dispositive communication? If not, they're also just speculating.


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DW_a_mom
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12 Nov 2021, 1:21 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Most don't, but enough do. Plus we have what her family says to back it up.


Do they have a note or other dispositive communication? If not, they're also just speculating.


Ethically, I don’t think it matters. The school was a toxic environment and had no apparent interest in changing.

Legally, it’s a civil case that will be looking for a preponderance of evidence, and can allow fault to lie with the school if it is deemed to have a been a contributing factor. I don’t think they will have to prove it was “the” factor.


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Dox47
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12 Nov 2021, 1:40 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Ethically, I don’t think it matters. The school was a toxic environment and had no apparent interest in changing.

Legally, it’s a civil case that will be looking for a preponderance of evidence, and can allow fault to lie with the school if it is deemed to have a been a contributing factor. I don’t think they will have to prove it was “the” factor.


Legally is one thing, but I actually think the ethics are strongly in my favor here, the school can absolutely have been a racist hellhole, and still not have actually been the cause of the suicide. This is actually one of my personal bugaboos, suicide is such a complex topic that often doesn't make "sense" as suicidal people are not making a rational decision, so attempting to point to what caused it without dispositive proof such as a note is not only a fool's errand, but also often incredibly inflammatory, especially when bullying is potentially involved, as that subject is so triggering for people that it often sets off a sort of rage spiral in the people engaging in the speculation. To name a few high profile examples, I remember when that young man threw himself off a bridge after his roommate surreptitiously recorded him having sex, and the internet was on fire with people wanting the roommate locked up, without any evidence that the tape was the actual cause of the suicide and the rage when there was no legal way to accomplish that, the people who still blame Courtney Love for Kurt Cobain's suicide, or in my own case, my suspicion that a bad public breakup was what caused Tony Bourdain to hang himself a few years back. In none of those cases is there any way to prove what the actual catalyst was, and it might have been something completely different than what people, including me, might think, and so I find it to be a bit irresponsible to speak so certainly about it when a high profile suicide happens.


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Last edited by Dox47 on 12 Nov 2021, 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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12 Nov 2021, 1:43 am

Just going to add, I do also get a little cynical when I see the family doing PR with a lawyer involved, having money on the table just complicates everything as far as creating some ugly incentives on all sides.


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Kraichgauer
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12 Nov 2021, 2:36 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Most don't, but enough do. Plus we have what her family says to back it up.


Do they have a note or other dispositive communication? If not, they're also just speculating.


Loved ones don't need any such thing when they can observe the one they care about in pain.


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12 Nov 2021, 7:02 am

10 year olds don’t commit suicide just for the heck of it.

I didn’t even know the concept of suicide at age 10.

Something really major was going on with her.



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12 Nov 2021, 8:19 am

Dox, I am one that was driven to attempt to take my life by bullying on more than one occasion.

While it is true not all cases of bullying result in attempted suicide/suicide it nonetheless does happen. Many instances go unreported so real statistics are not available.


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kraftiekortie
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12 Nov 2021, 8:54 am

One suicide because of bullying is one too much....



Dox47
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12 Nov 2021, 4:00 pm

maycontainthunder wrote:
Dox, I am one that was driven to attempt to take my life by bullying on more than one occasion.

While it is true not all cases of bullying result in attempted suicide/suicide it nonetheless does happen. Many instances go unreported so real statistics are not available.


Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it couldn't be the case here, what I'm trying to get across is that we don't know for sure, and shouldn't act as if we do.


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12 Nov 2021, 9:17 pm

Dox47 wrote:
maycontainthunder wrote:
Dox, I am one that was driven to attempt to take my life by bullying on more than one occasion.

While it is true not all cases of bullying result in attempted suicide/suicide it nonetheless does happen. Many instances go unreported so real statistics are not available.


Oh, I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that it couldn't be the case here, what I'm trying to get across is that we don't know for sure, and shouldn't act as if we do.


It's not rocket science Dox. The little girl was only 10. That's disturbingly young. Her ability to deeply reflect on her thoughts is restricted by her tender age. Her response to take her life is a direct result of the nasty names she had to endure I agree we don't know the quantity of racist names or names based on her autism or her looks or just her behaviour, But that doesn't negate or invalidate that her race did not play a role in the bullying.

I'm not picking on you alone but there seems to be a disturbing trend these days where people get sensitive whenever race is mentioned and try to play a prerecorded narrative that everything is about race and use this as a platform to invalidate the role race plays.



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13 Nov 2021, 9:40 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/news/10-old-autis ... 21461.html

Here's something more about the parents having tried to get the school to do something to protect their daughter.


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14 Nov 2021, 12:55 am

According to the article

"Black students reported strikingly similar experiences throughout the District: white and other non-Black students routinely called Black students the n-word and other racial epithets, called them monkeys or apes and said that their skin was dirty or looked like feces," the DOJ wrote in September 15 letter to the school district's attorney.

Students taunted Black students by telling them to "pick cotton," calling them slaves, and by touching and pulling on their hair, the DOJ said. Non-Black students also demanded their Black peers give them a "pass" to use the N-word and would threaten or physically assault their Black classmates if they refused, according to the report.

"Some students, now in middle and high school, said they had experienced racial harassment each year since they were kindergarteners," the DOJ wrote.

I thought Utah is a Mormon state? I thought they are all good christians??
All good christians go to heaven? Apparently not these ones.



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14 Nov 2021, 1:03 am

cyberdad wrote:
It's not rocket science Dox. The little girl was only 10. That's disturbingly young. Her ability to deeply reflect on her thoughts is restricted by her tender age. Her response to take her life is a direct result of the nasty names she had to endure I agree we don't know the quantity of racist names or names based on her autism or her looks or just her behaviour, But that doesn't negate or invalidate that her race did not play a role in the bullying.


None of that has anything to do with my point, which is that none of us here are psychic or capable of communing with the dead, so we can't know for sure why the girl killed herself, all we can do is speculate. I know this is a hard concept for you, this is not the first time I've had to point out to you that you can't simply decide what other people were thinking and then refer to your beliefs as if they were facts, hopefully one of these times it will stick.

cyberdad wrote:
I'm not picking on you alone but there seems to be a disturbing trend these days where people get sensitive whenever race is mentioned and try to play a prerecorded narrative that everything is about race and use this as a platform to invalidate the role race plays.


Did I even mention race? Am I really the person you want to try and lecture about race?


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14 Nov 2021, 1:39 am

Dox47 wrote:
None of that has anything to do with my point, which is that none of us here are psychic or capable of communing with the dead, so we can't know for sure why the girl killed herself, all we can do is speculate. I know this is a hard concept for you, this is not the first time I've had to point out to you that you can't simply decide what other people were thinking and then refer to your beliefs as if they were facts,


I didn't and I was actually agreeing with this point. But....laws of probability suggest she didn't commit suicide over her choice of clothes or taste in TV. Pretty likely her autism/race in an all white-NT classroom played a role, How much of a role is up for debate. But to say it did not play a role is highly unlikely.



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14 Nov 2021, 2:38 am

cyberdad wrote:
I didn't and I was actually agreeing with this point. But....laws of probability suggest she didn't commit suicide over her choice of clothes or taste in TV. Pretty likely her autism/race in an all white-NT classroom played a role, How much of a role is up for debate. But to say it did not play a role is highly unlikely.


cyberdad wrote:
It's not rocket science Dox. The little girl was only 10. That's disturbingly young. Her ability to deeply reflect on her thoughts is restricted by her tender age. Her response to take her life is a direct result of the nasty names she had to endure I agree we don't know the quantity of racist names or names based on her autism or her looks or just her behaviour, But that doesn't negate or invalidate that her race did not play a role in the bullying.

I'm not picking on you alone but there seems to be a disturbing trend these days where people get sensitive whenever race is mentioned and try to play a prerecorded narrative that everything is about race and use this as a platform to invalidate the role race plays.


Why do you lie when it's so easy to catch you?


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