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Axeman
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02 Dec 2021, 8:23 pm



DW_a_mom
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02 Dec 2021, 8:51 pm

There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.


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02 Dec 2021, 10:34 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.


But that's too humane and respectful of dignity for many people to find it agreeable. A lot of people need to be able to look down on others.


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Axeman
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03 Dec 2021, 2:55 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.


Many of them avoid shelters because of rules like curfews or no drugs. And no one is owed anything at someone else's expense.

But my concern here isn't for these disgusting Oscar the Grouch people. It's for the homeowners across the street who have to deal with the smell, the thefts, and disgusting people trying to lure their kids.



magz
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03 Dec 2021, 3:14 am

Axeman wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.


Many of them avoid shelters because of rules like curfews or no drugs. And no one is owed anything at someone else's expense.

But my concern here isn't for these disgusting Oscar the Grouch people. It's for the homeowners across the street who have to deal with the smell, the thefts, and disgusting people trying to lure their kids.
So you already see the homeless population is a great cost for society even when you're not trying to help them in any way.
Adressing this problem systematically would be a win-win - I'm posting it from a place where homelessness is rare and constantly managed by cooperating government and non-government organizations - and kept on manageable level.
No, it's not "managed" by making homelessness illegal and shoving people from your street and next from the other street and next from yet another... that's how you make it worse.


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03 Dec 2021, 5:04 am

funeralxempire wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.


But that's too humane and respectful of dignity for many people to find it agreeable. A lot of people need to be able to look down on others.

Tell me about it. :roll:


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Axeman
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03 Dec 2021, 11:06 am

magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.


Many of them avoid shelters because of rules like curfews or no drugs. And no one is owed anything at someone else's expense.

But my concern here isn't for these disgusting Oscar the Grouch people. It's for the homeowners across the street who have to deal with the smell, the thefts, and disgusting people trying to lure their kids.
So you already see the homeless population is a great cost for society even when you're not trying to help them in any way.
Adressing this problem systematically would be a win-win - I'm posting it from a place where homelessness is rare and constantly managed by cooperating government and non-government organizations - and kept on manageable level.
No, it's not "managed" by making homelessness illegal and shoving people from your street and next from the other street and next from yet another... that's how you make it worse.


I'm not for just giving them a free place to live at my expense. If that's what you are suggesting it will fall on deaf ears. The goal has to be making them into productive citizens and if that's not possible then I'm for simply giving them a hard boot.



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03 Dec 2021, 11:24 am

@Those whose hearts "bleed" for the homeless:

If you are so concerned about those poor homeless people who choose to live on the street, sleep in dumpsters, steal from honest merchants, and sell their stolen goods to buy drugs, then here is something you can do about it.

Invite them to live with you in your own homes instead of on the streets.

Then, and only then will you come to experience first-hand the mindset of the "Willfully Homeless".  Then you will know just how determined they are to live without being held accountable for their own actions, and how much they hate being told what they can and cannot do.  Sure, they will kowtow and say, "Yes-yes" when you lay down the rules by which you and your families have lived.  Certainly, they will smile and agree when you tell them "no drugs, no alcohol, no weapons, and no visitors without my permission".  And you can be certain that they will be perfect angels for the first few days of their rehabilitation.

But then you will notice things are missing.  Small, incidental things like toilet paper, soap, and canned foods.  Then one day you will come home and your furniture, your tech gear, and all of your valuables are gone.

And so is your "tenant".

Go ahead; try it.  If you have the courage of your convictions, then it should be no problem for you at all.



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03 Dec 2021, 11:26 am

Fnord wrote:
@Those whose hearts "bleed" for the homeless:

If you are so concerned about those poor homeless people who choose to live on the street, sleep in dumpsters, steal from honest merchants, and sell their stolen goods to buy drugs, then here is something you can do about it.

Invite them to live with you in your own homes instead of on the streets.

Then, and only then will you come to experience first-hand the mindset of the "Willfully Homeless".  Then you will know just how determined they are to live without being held accountable for their own actions, and how much they hate being told what they can and cannot do.  Sure, they will kowtow and say, "Yes-yes" when you lay down the rules by which you and your families have lived.  Certainly, they will smile and agree when you tell them "no drugs, no alcohol, no weapons, and no visitors without my permission".  And you can be certain that they will be perfect angels for the first few days of their rehabilitation.

But then you will notice things are missing.  Small, incidental things like toilet paper, soap, and canned foods.  Then one day you will come home and your furniture, your tech gear, and all of your valuables are gone.

And so is your "tenant".

Go ahead; try it.  If you have the courage of your convictions, then it should be no problem for you at all.


You talk sense my good sir. Watch Funeral call you a sociopath for it.



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03 Dec 2021, 11:46 am

Axeman wrote:
Fnord wrote:
@Those whose hearts "bleed" for the homeless:

If you are so concerned about those poor homeless people who choose to live on the street, sleep in dumpsters, steal from honest merchants, and sell their stolen goods to buy drugs, then here is something you can do about it.

Invite them to live with you in your own homes instead of on the streets.

Then, and only then will you come to experience first-hand the mindset of the "Willfully Homeless".  Then you will know just how determined they are to live without being held accountable for their own actions, and how much they hate being told what they can and cannot do.  Sure, they will kowtow and say, "Yes-yes" when you lay down the rules by which you and your families have lived.  Certainly, they will smile and agree when you tell them "no drugs, no alcohol, no weapons, and no visitors without my permission".  And you can be certain that they will be perfect angels for the first few days of their rehabilitation.

But then you will notice things are missing.  Small, incidental things like toilet paper, soap, and canned foods.  Then one day you will come home and your furniture, your tech gear, and all of your valuables are gone.

And so is your "tenant".

Go ahead; try it.  If you have the courage of your convictions, then it should be no problem for you at all.
You talk sense my good sir. Watch Funeral call you a sociopath for it.
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Sweetleaf
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03 Dec 2021, 11:59 am

magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.


Many of them avoid shelters because of rules like curfews or no drugs. And no one is owed anything at someone else's expense.

But my concern here isn't for these disgusting Oscar the Grouch people. It's for the homeowners across the street who have to deal with the smell, the thefts, and disgusting people trying to lure their kids.
So you already see the homeless population is a great cost for society even when you're not trying to help them in any way.
Adressing this problem systematically would be a win-win - I'm posting it from a place where homelessness is rare and constantly managed by cooperating government and non-government organizations - and kept on manageable level.
No, it's not "managed" by making homelessness illegal and shoving people from your street and next from the other street and next from yet another... that's how you make it worse.


Certainly the way I see it. And it seems in areas where they make efforts to house the homeless, good results are usually seen.

Probably a lot better for infrastructure and people living near such tent cities. But I suppose I am not bothered by idea of a homeless person seeing improvements in their life.



magz
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03 Dec 2021, 12:28 pm

Axeman wrote:
I'm not for just giving them a free place to live at my expense. If that's what you are suggesting it will fall on deaf ears. The goal has to be making them into productive citizens and if that's not possible then I'm for simply giving them a hard boot.
A fun fact: quick google revealed that estimated 25% of homeless people in America do have legal jobs.
At least this sub-group already are productive citizens who can't afford a place to live.

For the rest... one of my real life close friends is an ex-junkie. She did enormous work to build her life anew but it wouldn't have been possible without a lot of systematic support, mostly from NGOs. A junkie needs a whole long and slow process of learning how to live differently - not just a roof and rules.


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03 Dec 2021, 12:29 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.
Many of them avoid shelters because of rules like curfews or no drugs.  And no one is owed anything at someone else's expense.  But my concern here isn't for these disgusting Oscar the Grouch people.  It's for the homeowners across the street who have to deal with the smell, the thefts, and disgusting people trying to lure their kids.
So you already see the homeless population is a great cost for society even when you're not trying to help them in any way.  Addressing this problem systematically would be a win-win -- I'm posting it from a place where homelessness is rare and constantly managed by cooperating government and non-government organizations -- and kept on manageable level.  No, it's not "managed" by making homelessness illegal and shoving people from your street and next from the other street and next from yet another... that's how you make it worse.
Certainly the way I see it. And it seems in areas where they make efforts to house the homeless, good results are usually seen.  Probably a lot better for infrastructure and people living near such tent cities.  But I suppose I am not bothered by idea of a homeless person seeing improvements in their life.
Efforts are being made to clean up Skid Row in Los Angeles (and other areas).  Axeman and DW are correct in that the best way to deal with them is to provide safe and secure housing for them; but getting all of them to cooperate is difficult due to their general reluctance to following anti-nuisance rules (i.e., curfews, noise abatement, sanitation, et cetera).



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03 Dec 2021, 12:34 pm

magz wrote:
A fun fact: quick google revealed that estimated 25% of homeless people in America do have legal jobs.
At least this sub-group already are productive citizens who can't afford a place to live.
These are generally NOT the kind of people who choose street life.
magz wrote:
For the rest... one of my real life close friends is an ex-junkie.  She did enormous work to build her life anew but it wouldn't have been possible without a lot of systematic support, mostly from NGOs.  A junkie needs a whole long and slow process of learning how to live differently -- not just a roof and rules.
Yes, junkies need almost daily supervision and coaching, as well as ongoing treatment and therapy for their addictions.  For some, it is simply easier to live on the street; for the rest, there are either not enough NGOs to begin with, or the NGOs themselves are less than totally effective -- recidivism among junkies runs high.



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03 Dec 2021, 12:38 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
There is no clean and sanitary way to have people living on the streets. The only solution is to house them, something our country is appallingly bad at.
Many of them avoid shelters because of rules like curfews or no drugs.  And no one is owed anything at someone else's expense.  But my concern here isn't for these disgusting Oscar the Grouch people.  It's for the homeowners across the street who have to deal with the smell, the thefts, and disgusting people trying to lure their kids.
So you already see the homeless population is a great cost for society even when you're not trying to help them in any way.  Addressing this problem systematically would be a win-win -- I'm posting it from a place where homelessness is rare and constantly managed by cooperating government and non-government organizations -- and kept on manageable level.  No, it's not "managed" by making homelessness illegal and shoving people from your street and next from the other street and next from yet another... that's how you make it worse.
Certainly the way I see it. And it seems in areas where they make efforts to house the homeless, good results are usually seen.  Probably a lot better for infrastructure and people living near such tent cities.  But I suppose I am not bothered by idea of a homeless person seeing improvements in their life.
Efforts are being made to clean up Skid Row in Los Angeles (and other areas).  Axeman and DW are correct in that the best way to deal with them is to provide safe and secure housing for them; but getting all of them to cooperate is difficult due to their general reluctance to following anti-nuisance rules (i.e., curfews, noise abatement, sanitation, et cetera).



I was getting the impression Axeman did not agree with housing the homeless, but may have misunderstood. I could see getting all of them to cooperate could be difficult, I certainly have no illusions that all the homeless are outstanding citizens just going through a rough time. I wouldn't go near that tent city...



Axeman
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03 Dec 2021, 12:39 pm

magz wrote:
Axeman wrote:
I'm not for just giving them a free place to live at my expense. If that's what you are suggesting it will fall on deaf ears. The goal has to be making them into productive citizens and if that's not possible then I'm for simply giving them a hard boot.
A fun fact: quick google revealed that estimated 25% of homeless people in America do have legal jobs.
At least this sub-group already are productive citizens who can't afford a place to live.

For the rest... one of my real life close friends is an ex-junkie. She did enormous work to build her life anew but it wouldn't have been possible without a lot of systematic support, mostly from NGOs. A junkie needs a whole long and slow process of learning how to live differently - not just a roof and rules.


It's actually more like one in ten homeless in the US have a job.