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FranzOren
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11 Mar 2022, 11:51 am

It's important to remember that most people with mental health and neurodevelopmental disorders are more likely to be victims than being perpetrators.

One thing that scared me is I watched murder mysteries, Most Evil and those documentaries explains how delusions motivate those types of serial killers. Most of those serial killers were found NGRI, but some of those killers where found guilty at first, after some time in prison, their delusions became worse and they were also found NGRI as well. I think it's because to be a serial killer, you need to be very intelligent and especially to cover your tracks, and another reason why some of those killers were found guilty at first, it is because they seem to know right from wrong, by the judge asking simple questions, if they understand the charges, some of those delusional killers said that they do, but were later found NGRI after being found sane. Another thing that scared me is slander case, one of them were found guilty, but I heard they they were also civility committed.

It's like an isolated link between specific types of mental health and criminal behavior. Because, there is such thing as Insanity defense, incompetence, diminished capacity.



Last edited by FranzOren on 11 Mar 2022, 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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11 Mar 2022, 11:55 am

I'd also consider the possibility that delusional disorders don't necessarily impede one's ability to function entirely, which might contribute to the extent of the problem being underestimated.

Beyond that, I'd also consider that the experience of being imprisoned might make symptoms worse and they might only started to be acknowledged once that person is demonstrating them more severely.

I don't think criminal justice systems are well-designed for handling those who might have diminished responsibility.


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FranzOren
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11 Mar 2022, 12:12 pm

They were found sane at first, just because they seem to know right from wrong from very simple questions from the judge, of course they do understand, they are adults, but that doesn't mean that they can be responsible, delusions clouded their judgment, not only diminished capacity, they are NGRI afterwords.

That is why the legal term of insanity defense is very problematic when used to test older adults who are delusional, because they can seem to know right from wrong on the paper, but couldn't he tested accurately.



Last edited by FranzOren on 11 Mar 2022, 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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11 Mar 2022, 12:19 pm

FranzOren wrote:
They were found sane at first, just because they seem to know right from wrong from very simple questions from the judge, of course they do understand, they are adults, but that doesn't mean that they can be responsible, delusions clouded their judgment, not only diminished capacity, they are NGRI afterwords.

That is why the legal term of insanity defence is very problematic when used to test older adults who are delusional, because they can seem to know right from wrong on the paper, but couldn't he tested accurately.


That's kinda what I was getting at in my last sentence. Knowing right from wrong isn't always enough, if you believe the person you committed unspeakable violence against was actually a demon who needed to be slain to stop the end of the world (or whatever) you'll understand hurting people is wrong but still feel that specific act was justified because of the delusion.

That person clearly has their judgment impaired by symptoms of mental illness but still might not meet the threshold for being deemed to have diminished responsibility.

And we'd still have people complain about the mental health card. :roll:


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FranzOren
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11 Mar 2022, 12:23 pm

It makes sense.

I think that the legal definition should be a little bit more broad and accurate.

This is how it should be:

Legal insanity:

It's when a person doesn't know right from wrong or has delusions that clouded their judgment to make right legal decisions, and or night know right from wrong, but has command hallucinations


That is just an example, that is how it should be in modern psychiatry.



funeralxempire
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11 Mar 2022, 12:24 pm

FranzOren wrote:
It makes sense.

I think that the legal definition should be a little bit more broad and accurate.

This is how it should be:

Legal insanity:

It's when a person doesn't know right from wrong or has delusions that clouded their judgment to make right legal decisions, and or night know right from wrong, but has command hallucinations


That is just an example, that is how it should be in modern psychatry.


Agreed.


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FranzOren
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11 Mar 2022, 12:50 pm

I just don't like the concept if insanity defense, I hate that word even, because to be insane, you don't know right from wrong whatsoever.

But with just delusions, you only don't know right from wrong on what delusions take into effect, because outside of that delusion, you know right from wrong. The whole concept of insanity defence sounds too narrow, and I bet there are more than 0.1 percent of people that are supposed to not be found criminally responsible, because of severe neurodevelopental disorder or delusions, but were tested inaccurately, because judges are not psychiatrists and assume that those defendants know right from wrong, just because they said they do on simple questions the judges asked. It's just sad, to be honest with you.



Last edited by FranzOren on 11 Mar 2022, 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Mar 2022, 1:04 pm

FranzOren wrote:
I just don't like the concept if insanity defence, I hate that word even, because to be insane, you don't know right from wrong whatsoever.

But with just delusions, you only don't know right from wrong on what delusions take into effect, because outside of that delusion, you know right from wrong. The whole concept of insanity defence sounds too narrow, and I bet there are more than 0.1 percent of people that are supposed to not be found criminally responsible, because of severe neurodevelopental disorder or delusions, but were tested inaccurately, because judges are not psychiatrists and assume that those defendants know right from wrong, just because they said they do on simple questions the judges asked. It's just sad, to be honest with you.


Agreed, I think the term itself helps contribute to the incredibly strict way it's interpreted and that a more accurate term should be used as well as allowing for a broader interpretation.

In general I don't like the idea of a justice system that's focused on being punitive and vindictive. I believe an actual justice system would focus on rehabilitative and restorative approach.


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FranzOren
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11 Mar 2022, 1:10 pm

That makes more sense.

I think instead of Insanity Defense, they should change it NCR, Not Criminally Responsible, because having only delusions doesn't mean you are insane, it just clouds your judgment. But, if you don't understand criminal changes against you, that is incompetence and a different issue.
With command hallucinations, you can understand what you are doing is wrong, but I think diminished capacity is a better fit, because your mind is stuck with intrusive thoughts telling you to do bad things, and you feel very bad about it afterwords when you no longer have those thoughts, because you acted on it.

Those are just examples.



FranzOren
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12 Mar 2022, 1:45 am

Why when it comes to severe Schizophrenia, it is much easier to proof NGRI than Delusional Disorder?

I am sorry that I asked, because most serial killers with Schizophrenia are found NGRI right after committing crimes, but serial killers with Delusional Disorder are found guilty at first.



TheRealGK
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12 Mar 2022, 3:00 am

This illustrates the stupidity of psychiatry. I am not convinced that mental illness is real but even real mental illnesses could not be distinguished from fake mental illnesses because psychiatrists have no way to OBJECTIVELY test for mental illnesses.



FranzOren
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12 Mar 2022, 3:03 am

The answer is that people with severe Schizophrenia are incompetent to stand trial, they are not aware that the judge is talking to them, but some with only delusions does understand the criminal charges against them, but they can't be responsible, because delusions clouded their judgment, that is why they are found guilty at first, but got NGRI sometime later when delusions also because worse.

I kind find it very strange, because at the and of the day, mild delusions and severe Schizophrenia are comes from the same phenomena of a very serious mental illness.



FranzOren
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12 Mar 2022, 1:56 pm

The scary thing is that when I watched documentaries of people becoming serial killers, they start to have a fixed, false belief of whom they are targeting and why. I asked my mom why when people kill three or more innocent people, something about their beliefs is delusional, and she explained to me that they have personality disorders that causes delusional thinking and that no one without those types of personality disorders would want to do that to innocent people.

Those personality disorders are Antisocial Personality Disorder and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, with symptom of delusions.

Those serial killers that got NGRI were diagnosed with personality disorders, with delusions as a symptom.



FranzOren
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13 Mar 2022, 12:15 am

I wonder if I am correct.

Article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ntelligent

I don't really think it has to do with being a savant per say, being a serial criminal and hurting innocent people is very unhealthy, because you start to twist your fantasies and then act on your thoughts, making delusional excuses why you became a serial criminal and hurting innocent people. It's reasons that a very healthy individual, individual without personality disorders that causes twisted fantasies will not understand. There is no good reason to hurt innocent people repeatedly, and it's not healthy.

I don't really agree with one thing from that article. Becoming a serial criminal, and hurting innocent people can cause delusions. There is no good reason to hurt innocent people repeatedly. There is some kind of twisted paranoid fantasies and explanations those types of criminals make after they are cought and interviewed. It's just very unhealthy.

Those delusional thinking is caused by personality disorders.



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15 Mar 2022, 7:02 am

TheRealGK wrote:
This illustrates the stupidity of psychiatry. I am not convinced that mental illness is real but even real mental illnesses could not be distinguished from fake mental illnesses because psychiatrists have no way to OBJECTIVELY test for mental illnesses.


This thread isn't about psychiatrists' ability to objectively test for mental illness. (They're actually very good at it, incidentally, and they have plenty of ways to tell if people are faking.) It's about judges' ability. Judges don't have psychiatric training, they have legal training. It's no wonder they're bad at judging someone's psychiatric state, given that they're not actually trained to do so.



FranzOren
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15 Mar 2022, 8:28 am

Judges should get a degree in psychology and psychiatry as well, because criminals with only delusions can understand criminal charges against them, but the responsibility of their actions gets questionined once there is more evidence of their delusions that contributed to criminal behavior.

I think criminals should be in a mental hospital to get proper mental evaluation and see if there is delusions that contributed to criminal behavior, if there is no delusions, then they are found guilty and serve a sentence.