I started reading Koran and liked a lot of it

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Fnord
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11 Apr 2022, 9:41 am

Lighten up.  No one is putting words into your mouth.



kraftiekortie
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11 Apr 2022, 9:43 am

I feel like about as many Muslims take the Koran literally----as Christians take the Bible literally.

Most Muslims I have known are not really fanatical about the praying to Mecca five times a day thing. More have at least some belief in keeping to the Ramadan restrictions.



QFT
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11 Apr 2022, 9:48 am

Fnord wrote:
• Menstruating women are unclean, and men must stay away from them.


That comes straight from the Old Testament. The Orthodox Jews stay away from menstruating wives. Seeing that Koran draws a lot from the Old Testament (which is why they don't eat pork for example) its not too surprising.

I must say though that I don't really know what to make of it -- whether in Old Testament or Koran. Sounds weird. I guess I never been married thats why I never had to worry about it.

Fnord wrote:
• Muslims are not allowed to marry non-Muslims, unless the latter convert to Islam.


That is a lot less weird than other things you listed. In Christianity and Judaism the same is true: people who are devoted to their religion won't marry outside of their respective faiths.

The rest of what you mentioned *is* quite gross.

But I must say that Old Testament has pretty gross stuff too. I heard the Old Testament has something to the effect that a woman that was raped is obligated to marry her rapist. Or that if in the town there is just one idolater, everyone in the town (both people and animals) need to be killed off.

I tend to just gloss over stuff like that since I have no idea how to make any sense of it. So I guess glossing over similar stuff in a Koran won't be any different.



naturalplastic
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11 Apr 2022, 9:59 am

I pretty much agree with your above post about the comparative attitudes towards Jews.

In theory Islam is less antisemitic than Christianity. And in most of history it was less antisemitic in practice as well.

And this difference is pretty much for the reasons you say. Both scriptural and historical.

During most of history. Jews were more likely to flee TO Muslim countries to escape persecution in Christian countries, than to flee Muslim countries to Christian countries. And traditionally Muslims are more tolerant of "peoples of the book"( the old testament) than they are of Pagan idolators. That is... "Jews and Christians need to convert- but they arent as bad as Hindus" and even Zorastrians arent as bad as Hindus (because they have A book -with written down rules-even if it isnt the right book)."



In fact there is even a curious passage in the Koran that seems to be saying that the Jews have the right to reclaim their home in the Holy Land (ie it seems to okay Zionism). I was gobsmacked to hear that too.

But the attitudes of Muslims and Christians toward Jews flipped during the 20th Century - largely because of the creation of Israel.

But the attitudes havent changed as much as it may outwardly seem. Today in the US there is more support for Israel among Evangelical Protestants than there is among Jews. But the said Evangelical Protestants support Israel because of end time prophecies, and most want Israeli Jews to convert to Christianity. So this alliance between American Evangelicals and Jews about Israel is ...an alliance , but not really a friendship.

BTW...when you try to google that seemingly pro Israel passage in the Koran -the first thing you get are angry Muslims denying it says that- and hurling vitriol at those who "exploit the passage".

So...like the Bible...much of the Koran is open to[cough] interpretation.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 11 Apr 2022, 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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11 Apr 2022, 10:01 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel like about as many Muslims take the Koran literally----as Christians take the Bible literally.  Most Muslims I have known are not really fanatical about the praying to Mecca five times a day thing. More have at least some belief in keeping to the Ramadan restrictions.
Most Muslims I know could not care less that I am not Muslim.  It is the ones who hate everything about Western culture (like attractive women refusing to date them) who quote the Koran most often.



RetroGamer87
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11 Apr 2022, 10:28 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I bought a copy on a whim a few years back just to see what it was all about. Never got around to reading it. Thank you for reminding me I owned a copy (so did Thomas Jefferson).

I bet he actually read his.


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QFT
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11 Apr 2022, 10:40 am

naturalplastic wrote:
But the attitudes havent changed as much as it may outwardly seem. Today in the US there is more support for Israel among Evangelical Protestants than there is among Jews. But the said Evangelical Protestants support Israel because of end time prophecies, and most want Israeli Jews to convert to Christianity. So this alliance between American Evangelicals and Jews about Israel is ...an alliance , but not really a friendship.


Yes they might want Israel because of endtime prophesies, and yes they might want Jews to convert, but neither of these two things amount to antisemitism proper. Don't get me wrong: I know Jews are probably even more angry at people trying to convert them than they are angry at actual antisemites. But keep in mind: antisemite is the one who doesn't like Jews, not the one whom Jews don't like. So if you are trying to convert Jews, then sure: Jews don't like you. But that doesn't make you an antisemite since you aren't harboring your own dislike towards the Jews.

I mean you won't hear American (Christians or otherwise) talk about anti-Jewish stereotypes that you would have heard in Europe few decades ago. Most Americans probably haven't heard of them.



QFT
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11 Apr 2022, 10:42 am

Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel like about as many Muslims take the Koran literally----as Christians take the Bible literally.  Most Muslims I have known are not really fanatical about the praying to Mecca five times a day thing. More have at least some belief in keeping to the Ramadan restrictions.
Most Muslims I know could not care less that I am not Muslim.  It is the ones who hate everything about Western culture (like attractive women refusing to date them) who quote the Koran most often.


Well, what you just said clearly doesn't apply to me, since I hope to avoid looking at anti-woman verses. I am mostly looking at the Koran for Christian/Jewish stuff.



aghogday
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11 Apr 2022, 10:43 am



"A Short Summary of Koranic Directives Regarding Women:

• A woman is worth one-half of a man, and men are above women.

• Men are superior to women and have authority over them, while women must obey men or risk being beaten.

• Menstruating women are unclean, and men must stay away from them.

• Muslim men may marry up to four wives, including prepubescent girls, and can own sex slaves.

• Muslims are not allowed to marry non-Muslims, unless the latter convert to Islam.

• Women are men's "fields", and men can have sex with them whenever they want.

• Women must cover themselves and be seen only by relatives, eunuchs, slaves, and children who have not yet had sex with women."

Sure, Quoted For Truth; Now Let's Study the Old Testament of the Christian Bible Where Verses Have Been Cherry
Picked to Justify a Women's Inability to Speak on Spiritual Matters With a Delay Of Voting Rights, Just 122 Years Ago
in 1920; Amusingly, Folks Cherry Pick Verses Still in the Old Testament Regarding LGBQT Rights; Yet They

Forget All About

What It Says About

Women And Also Support

of 'Priests' Performing Chemical
Induced Abortions on Adulterous
Women; And Of Course There is that
Issue of Lot Offering Up His Virgin Daughters

to Replace the Action of A Mob Outside That Wants
to Violently Rape A Male Stranger Visiting His Home;

(Just As A Side Note: Psalm Support For Dashing the Heads
of Opposing Tribe's Children Against Stones is Kinda Messed Up too)

His Reward From that So-Called God THEN, Being Saved From
Destruction in the City He Lives; His Wife's Reward For Looking
Back at the Destruction, turned into A Pillar of Salt; True in That

Old Part of the Christian Bible, Women Are Viewed About As Valuable

As the Salt of the Earth
Dead, Worth A Replacement
Value of Serving As Rape Victims for Male Potential Rape Victims;

Not a Very Pretty Place in a Story for Women AT ALL in those Days; And Now too:

YET OFTEN FORGOTTEN, WHILE LGBQT+ FOLKS ARE TREATED LIKE 'TRUMP TRASH'....

AND HELL NO, THESE SLIGHTS/ABUSE AGAINST WOMEN ARE NOT LIMITED TO THE OLD TESTAMENT EITHER.

"Genesis 3:16

Eve's punishment for eating the forbidden fruit: "In pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." Exodus 20:17

In the Ten Commandments, the wife as property: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's." Numbers 5:12-28

A test for women suspected of adultery: "If any man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him...and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act...then the man shall bring his wife to the priest...[who] shall make her take an oath, saying, 'If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband's authority, be immune to this water of bitterness'... When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself...[the water] shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children." Deuteronomy 22:23-24

A rape victim's rights, Old Testament style: "If there is a young woman, a virgin already engaged to be married, and a man meets her in the town and lies with her, you shall...stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help...and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife." [If the woman is not engaged] "the man who lay with her shall give 50 shekels of silver to the young woman's father, and she shall become his wife." Ephesians 5:22-23

The apostle Paul on husbands and wives: "Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Paul on women's conduct in church: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak... And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home." 1 Timothy 2:13-15

Paul on why women should be silent in church: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided [she] continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty." Titus 2:3-5

Paul on how to instruct women: "Likewise, tell the older women to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be self-controlled, chaste, good managers of the household, kind, being submissive to their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited." 1 Peter 3:1-7

The apostle Peter on women's conduct and status: "Wives...do not adorn yourselves outwardly by braiding your hair, and by wearing gold ornaments or fine clothing; rather, let your adornment be the inner self with the lasting beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit... It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands. Thus Sarah obeyed Abraham and called him lord." Revelation 14:1-4

The 144,000 who will be chosen at the Second Coming: "Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion! And with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads...It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins."

VERDICT:

BOTH THE CHRISTIAN
BIBLE AND THE QURAN

ARE HORRIBLE EXAMPLES

OF LOVE WHEN IT COMES TO

THE HEALTH AND WELL BEING OF WOMEN, OVERALL.

Granted, the Quran Verses Overall, Improve on How Women
Were Treated Before the Quran Went into Effect; However,

'They' Refuse to Admit

How Flawed It is Still

Today NOW For the

Overall Value of What A Women is Worth;
And the Source of All Human Life And How

All Human Beings Are Born After Female Fetus Potential
Until Hormones Are Sprinkled in And Some Body Parts Change into

Different Body
(In Example, a
Penis Instead of Clitoris)
Parts for Reproduction.

Both Books Are Books of Ignorance/Harm Still;

No Ifs and or Buts; People Do Amazing Mental

Gymnastics to Put Lip Stick on Both Pig-Like Books;

Oh By the Way; Pigs Without Lipstick Are All Beautiful Natural Creatures...

Yet of Course

Not All Folks Agree...

So Goes the Human Condition...

We All See it Differently And Some
Folks Manage to See CR8P Pie As Delicious
As Long As They Pick Out 'The Cherries', they Love to Consume...

Fortunately, There is More than Two Books in the World That Speak
of Love Instead of Harm to Others; In 'The Old Ones,' Ranging DOWN to an All Loving,
Forgiving, Merciful God As Described in 'Both of those Old Books,' Torturing 'The Enemies'

Who Don't Do What

God Says to Do Next Forever;

Forever, As Long As Evil is Just Words in a Book...

As True With Human Beings, We Will Be As Evil as
We Are Able to Bring our Stories (Nightmares or Dreams) to Life;
Fortunately,

Myths

Are Just

Myths; However,

Folks Still Suffer
By the Effects of Lies

As Lies Remain Lies too Even When they Become Beliefs;

And Harm Others As Much As Folks Will Do, Tolerate, And Accept;

i Dance
And

Sing
CLEARLY

NO, NO, NO, TO WHAT
CONSTITUTES CR8P PIE...

Yet Again, There Are Positive Parts
of the Poetry in Each Anthology of Words...

So Goes the Human Condition; DarK And LiGHT; NiGHT And Day....

God As Evil;

God As Love;

If God Is Love,

God Doesn't Do That Cr8p 'Above, Below';

Or However Many Other Letters are Assigned to 'Love'...

It's Not Surprising How Much Both Books Mirror Each Other
To Slights and Abuse to Women; After All. the Second One
Plagiarized A Large Part of the First one in A Minuscule 80,000
or So Words With A Minimal 2000 Words of Vocabulary; Yawn This is the 21st Century;

Some Folks Are Getting a Clue, Just How Small In So Many Ways Both Books Are in Accordance

With Love For All; True, Even That Tiny 800,000 or so Word Book That Took Innumerable Ghost
Authors, Scribes With Mistakes, and Intentional Changes, Thousands of Years to even Number the

Verses in the 1300's;

And Finally Put the First
Book to Print in the 1400's, So

Scribes Might not Make So Many
Damned Mistakes and Intentional Changes

Copying By Hand All Those Millennials Before...

Anyway. Don't Come into a Room With A Person
With Asperger's Syndrome; And Not Expect to
Be Corrected Hehe, For Whatever Their Special

Interest May

Be; Love that is
True and Real or LeSS iN DarK;

In This Case At Least, With SMiLES;
Particularly, When Someone Is Naked,
Enough, Whole, And Complete; And Financially

Independent, Not Having to 'Brownnose' Keeping Jobs,
FRiEnDS, Lovers; And Basic Subsistence to Survive As A Social Animal;
And Oh Yeah, It Helps to Live in a Country Where One is Not Slain for Disagreeing...

Or Deleted From Informational Sources, Where All Voices of Disagreement Are Silenced.

Where Everyone

Must Dance And
Sing off the Same
Choir Sheets to Participate at all...

-Different

Makes A Difference... too...

And Nope, We Don't Really Need
to go Back to A Place of 'Theocracy;'
Where An Evil God's Rules Are Considered Justice;

At Least if one is Not a Republican Politician Now in
Texas or Some Other Biblical Belt State, ESpouSinG
InJustice Against Women to Follow A "REAL Evil God's Rules" in Human Form...

https://stellarhousepublishing.com/what-does-the-koran-say-about-women/

https://www.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/01/25/ten-biblical-teachings-women-love-to-hate



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Last edited by aghogday on 11 Apr 2022, 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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11 Apr 2022, 10:48 am

QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel like about as many Muslims take the Koran literally----as Christians take the Bible literally.  Most Muslims I have known are not really fanatical about the praying to Mecca five times a day thing. More have at least some belief in keeping to the Ramadan restrictions.
Most Muslims I know could not care less that I am not Muslim.  It is the ones who hate everything about Western culture (like attractive women refusing to date them) who quote the Koran most often.
Well, what you just said clearly doesn't apply to me, since I hope to avoid looking at anti-woman verses. I am mostly looking at the Koran for Christian/Jewish stuff.
You might do better at that by looking at the Torah/Bible.  Just sayin'.



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11 Apr 2022, 1:02 pm

Fnord wrote:
QFT wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel like about as many Muslims take the Koran literally----as Christians take the Bible literally.  Most Muslims I have known are not really fanatical about the praying to Mecca five times a day thing. More have at least some belief in keeping to the Ramadan restrictions.
Most Muslims I know could not care less that I am not Muslim.  It is the ones who hate everything about Western culture (like attractive women refusing to date them) who quote the Koran most often.
Well, what you just said clearly doesn't apply to me, since I hope to avoid looking at anti-woman verses. I am mostly looking at the Koran for Christian/Jewish stuff.
You might do better at that by looking at the Torah/Bible.  Just sayin'.


And I did, for many years. The reason I looked at the Koran is to get some new perspective on Christian/Jewish issues I saw in the Bible. Just like I like attending different Sabbaterian sects without joining them. Reading Koran is the same thing. And I did find some interesting things there -- see both OP and other follow up posts -- so I guess it wasn't for nothing.



Fnord
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11 Apr 2022, 1:06 pm

In that case, I suggest you seek the counsel of a learned, English-speaking Imam to explain the difficult parts.



QFT
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11 Apr 2022, 2:13 pm

Fnord wrote:
In that case, I suggest you seek the counsel of a learned, English-speaking Imam to explain the difficult parts.


I have a gut feeling that whatever Iman would say would be very Islamic while what actual Koran says will sound more Christian/Jewish. But then again, thats just my gut feeling based on extrapolation of what has been said about the Bible. I might as well talk to Iman, nothing to lose. I just have a sense that I won't enjoy it as much as I enjoy reading it on my own. But since that is just an experiment anyway, might as well try :)