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ASPartOfMe
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17 Jun 2022, 8:21 am

Republican 'whataboutism' on the Jan. 6 coup attempt is a fallacy - Cathy Young for Newsday
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So, since pro-Trump conservatives can’t tune out the hearings, the fallback tactic is the ploy known as “whataboutism.”

As in: What about the time the Democrats did something as bad or worse, such as the riots associated with the Black Lives Matter protests of the summer of 2020?

For the record, I think the 2020 riots were improperly minimized (and sometimes effectively excused) by many progressive activists and journalists. Talk of “mostly peaceful” protests often served to downplay the devastation riots caused to communities, including the toll in human lives.

But firstly, there is still a huge difference between trashing businesses or vandalizing an empty federal building and storming Capitol Hill while Congress is in session, chanting murderous threats against the Vice President of the United States, and intending to prevent the election from being certified. One is an assault on law and order. The other is an assault on a bedrock of American democracy: the peaceful transfer of power.

And second: No high-level Democrats cheered on the violence in 2020. President (then candidate) Biden repeatedly condemned the rioting and looting. Vice President Kamala Harris supported the protests, but condemned the violence. Yet on Jan. 6, even if we’re to believe that Trump meant only peaceful protest when he urged his followers to “fight like hell,” he repeatedly refused pleas to publicly call off the violent mob — and privately voiced approval.

Another “what about” argument concerns Democratic attacks on the Supreme Court, particularly with passions running high over a likely ruling overturning federal protections for abortion rights. Here, too, the Democrats’ critics have valid points. Calling the current court “illegitimate” — as Sen. Edward Markey (D-Mass.) did the other day — is irresponsible, no matter what one thinks of Republican tactics to achieve the court’s conservative majority. The protests outside the justices’ homes smack of harassment, and a mentally ill man’s apparent plan to assassinate Justice Brett Kavanaugh is a disturbing sign of a dangerous climate around the court. One can argue that Democrats should be more vocal in condemning all political violence.

But here, the parallels end.

Are there examples of Democrats and progressives behaving badly? Plenty. But Jan. 6 was a wannabe coup, even if it had no chance of succeeding. There is no Democratic equivalent.

ASPartOfMe endorses the sentiments in this opinion column.

I would add that for the most part the BLM riots stopped a long time ago. The attempted coup is ongoing.

That what the insurrectionists are doing is worse then the illiberalism from left the makes it harder for critics of the left and easier to excuse their illiberalism. That is not an excuse to fail to call them out on it because the lesser of two evils is evil.

Ms. Young said that there is no Democrat equivalent. True but the Democrats funding the most revolutionary Republican candidates in expectation they will lose in the general election is uncomfortably close. Way, Way, Way too close.


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kraftiekortie
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17 Jun 2022, 8:26 am

They both were egregious.

However, 1/6 was an attempt to overthrow the present government. Therefore, it was worse than the BLM riots, when taken as a whole.

If one was a shopkeeper affected by the vandalism of the BLM riots, it would be understandable if this shopkeeper had a different take upon this distinction.



MaxE
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19 Jun 2022, 8:51 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
However, 1/6 was an attempt to overthrow the present government. Therefore, it was worse than the BLM riots, when taken as a whole.

IMO any self-identified Democrat who uses the phrase "BLM riot" unironically makes themselves Trump's (and by extension) Putin's useful idiot.


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19 Jun 2022, 10:59 am

For Canadians BLM are a bigger problem than they are down in the US.

Not really BLMs fault so much as the fault of those who accept their narrative and try and fit it up here.

"defund the Police"

yes and what about the private security guards telling us where we can and cant sit all the time, who are increasing in number at an alarming rate?

What will defending the police do to free us from that growing menace?



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19 Jun 2022, 11:03 am

MaxE wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:

IMO any self-identified Democrat who uses the phrase "BLM riot" unironically makes themselves Trump's (and by extension) Putin's useful idiot.


Can I say "BLM Idiots", using "Idiot" in the russian sense, without joining Putin? :jester:



SabbraCadabra
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19 Jun 2022, 12:47 pm

I think the biggest point they missed is that the BLM riots AND Jan 6th were both largely initiated by white supremacy groups.

I'd say that's a pretty huge parallel right there.
The only difference is that on Jan 6th, they were all caught with their pants down, because the opposition they were expecting never showed up.

The Trump party also like to perpetuate the lie that no arrests were made during the BLM riots, when that is absolutely not true.


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19 Jun 2022, 12:56 pm

If Antifa or BLM tried an insurrection, they wouldn't have made it anywhere near the Capitol.

The cops were taking selfies with the MAGA people. After all, they share the same hatred of black people.

Anarchy in the red states is the only way people in those states can have the same freedoms as people in blue states. No government, no cops! As far as I'm concerned, they're all like Derek Chauvin.



Last edited by Tim_Tex on 19 Jun 2022, 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

roronoa79
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19 Jun 2022, 2:56 pm

BLM were overwhelmingly peaceful protests whose incidents of violence were blown out of proportion by news outlets in need of ratings. They were everyday people standing up to a government that was indifferent to the deaths of black Americans.

Jan 6 was a mob of right-wing radicals spurred on by their messiah to threaten Congress with violent death to overturn an election that their egos would not allow them to believe they lost.

One was a protest against government violence, one was a lynch mob meant to override the democratic process. One was 95% peaceful, one was 100% violent.

Whataboutism is one of the most pitiful weapons in the right's (and sometimes the center's) arsenal.


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19 Jun 2022, 6:16 pm

SabbraCadabra wrote:
I think the biggest point they missed is that the BLM riots AND Jan 6th were both largely initiated by white supremacy groups.

^this


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ASPartOfMe
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19 Jun 2022, 9:51 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
BLM were overwhelmingly peaceful protests whose incidents of violence were blown out of proportion by news outlets in need of ratings. They were everyday people standing up to a government that was indifferent to the deaths of black Americans.

This is similar to saying 1/6 was a mostly peaceful protest because the majority of protesters were outside of the Captial waving flags and carrying signs. Literally true and ultimately meaningless.

Blown out of proportion? The BLM riots resulted in 25 deaths, an estimated 1 to 2 million in damage the costliest in American history, and that was just by June 8th. Over 1,500 buildings were damaged in Minneapolis alone.
More Than 1,500 Minnesota Businesses Damaged in George Floyd Protests, Expect to Take Years to Rebuild

Vandalism, looting following Floyd's death sparks at least $1B in damages nationwide: report

Exclusive: $1 billion-plus riot damage is most expensive in insurance history

SabbraCadabra wrote:
I think the biggest point they missed is that the BLM riots AND Jan 6th were both largely initiated by white supremacy groups.

There were a few members of white supremacist groups arrested, and if you want to count the mostly white Antifa instigation be my guest.

But to conclude the BLM riots were largely instigated by white supremacists is to conclude the black rioters were sheepie incapable of rioting own their own volition and that is supremacist thinking.


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20 Jun 2022, 6:33 am

The BLM riots were initiated by valid concerns—but not by white supremacists, directly…..but possibly indirectly in certain cases.

In essence, it really is incorrect to call those riots BLM riots. It’s probably better to call them by whatever provocative event lead to these individual riots (e.g., “George Floyd Riots”).



SabbraCadabra
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20 Jun 2022, 10:58 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
But to conclude the BLM riots were largely instigated by white supremacists is to conclude the black rioters were sheepie incapable of rioting own their own volition and that is supremacist thinking.

I watched a few of the protests on live video feeds as they were happening, and everything was fine until angry white guys in pickup trucks with out-of-state license plates arrived. It was the same story every time, it even happened in our city (but police managed to keep most of it in check). I don't think it's too difficult or "supremacist thinking" to put two and two together.

The riot in Minneapolis, we have surviving video footage of "umbrella guy", a confirmed member of one or two white supremacy groups, who showed up, started smashing windows, and got out of there.


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kraftiekortie
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20 Jun 2022, 11:23 am

Most of the “progressive” protesters are peaceful. Most probably are not in the BLM “inner circle,” if they are affiliated with BLM at all.

Of course, BLM is a loosely-organized organization.

There are some within BLM who believe some sort of violence is essential to bring about change. I don’t believe the majority….but this sort of faction does exist.



ASPartOfMe
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20 Jun 2022, 11:39 am

SabbraCadabra wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
But to conclude the BLM riots were largely instigated by white supremacists is to conclude the black rioters were sheepie incapable of rioting own their own volition and that is supremacist thinking.

I watched a few of the protests on live video feeds as they were happening, and everything was fine until angry white guys in pickup trucks with out-of-state license plates arrived. It was the same story every time, it even happened in our city (but police managed to keep most of it in check). I don't think it's too difficult or "supremacist thinking" to put two and two together.

The riot in Minneapolis, we have surviving video footage of "umbrella guy", a confirmed member of one or two white supremacy groups, who showed up, started smashing windows, and got out of there.


The question is not if white supremicists(and Antifa) instigated trouble but if they were “largely” the instigators. There were riots in some 200 cities or so. There are only a few hundred or so members in the hardcore groups such as Proud Boys and Oath Keepers. It would be some organizational feat to start riots in multiple locations in such a short period of time. Most white racists upon seeing any group of blacks never mind rioting ones will s**t their pants.

The main “instigators” were the video of George Floyd being murdered and the other riots. They were “largely” spontaneous.

kraftiekortie wrote:
In essence, it really is incorrect to call those riots BLM riots. It’s probably better to call them by whatever provocative event lead to these individual riots (e.g., “George Floyd Riots”).

George Floyd had less to do with it then BLM. There were riots about the killings of James Blake and Brianna Taylor. I did not see most BLM chapters condemning the riots. I think there was a good cop bad cop (pun intended) thing going on. During the day and in white areas you had the “respectful” peaceful people who were legitimately moved by current events that branded the movement in a positive light. I agree that the vast majority of individual protesters were peaceful. Then at night they used the muscle to put the fear of god in decision makers.


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21 Jun 2022, 5:54 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
During the day and in white areas you had the “respectful” peaceful people who were legitimately moved by current events that branded the movement in a positive light. I agree that the vast majority of individual protesters were peaceful. Then at night they used the muscle to put the fear of god in decision makers.

Who were these people and who were they taking orders from, and if everybody except me knows who they are, then do you really expect me to believe that the authorities are too cowed by them to arrest and try them, given the abundant evidence?


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ASPartOfMe
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21 Jun 2022, 10:59 am

MaxE wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
During the day and in white areas you had the “respectful” peaceful people who were legitimately moved by current events that branded the movement in a positive light. I agree that the vast majority of individual protesters were peaceful. Then at night they used the muscle to put the fear of god in decision makers.

Who were these people and who were they taking orders from, and if everybody except me knows who they are, then do you really expect me to believe that the authorities are too cowed by them to arrest and try them, given the abundant evidence?

Like I said both the peaceful and violent protests were largely spontaneous. There was no need to give explicit orders. All the BLM leadership needed to do is sit back and let the good cop/bad cop effect organically happen.

This is similar to 1/6 in that Trump did not have to give an explicit order that said storm the capital and try and kill Mike Pence.

I do think the rioters were given too much leeway. IMHO some of it was the fear by politicians.
Other reasons were surprise as widespread rioting had not been an issue for decades, and sympathy for the cause.

Surprise does not explain Portland allowing violent protests to go on for over a hundred straight nights.


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