Right wing Christians vs. Jesus's actual teachings

Page 2 of 3 [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Twilightprincess
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,864
Location: Small Town From Hell

24 Jun 2022, 6:23 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
He also was not very supportive of families:

For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and one’s foes will be members of one’s own household.37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. —Matthew 10:35-39


That about supporting families is a mistaken conclusion.

A couple different things are being referenced there with none of them being Jesus' view on the value of families.

:arrow:
One being the Old Testament prophecy book of Micah, chapter 7,
https://biblehub.com/nkjv/micah/7.htm
"
Sorrow for Israel’s Sins

1Woe is me!
For I am like those who gather summer fruits,
Like those who glean vintage grapes;
There is no cluster to eat
Of the first-ripe fruit which my soul desires.
2The faithful[a] man has perished from the earth,
And there is no one upright among men.
They all lie in wait for blood;
Every man hunts his brother with a net.

3That they may successfully do evil with both hands—
The prince asks for gifts,
The judge seeks a bribe,
And the great man utters his evil desire;
So they scheme together.
4The best of them is like a brier;
The most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge;
The day of your watchman and your punishment comes;
Now shall be their perplexity.

5Do not trust in a friend;
Do not put your confidence in a companion;
Guard the doors of your mouth
From her who lies in your bosom.
6For son dishonors father,
Daughter rises against her mother,
Daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
A man’s enemies are the men of his own household.
7Therefore I will look to the Lord;
I will wait for the God of my salvation;
My God will hear me.

Israel’s Confession and Comfort

8Do not rejoice over me, my enemy;
When I fall, I will arise;
When I sit in darkness,
The Lord will be a light to me.
9I will bear the indignation of the Lord,
Because I have sinned against Him,
Until He pleads my case
And executes justice for me.
He will bring me forth to the light;
I will see His righteousness.
10Then she who is my enemy will see,
And shame will cover her who said to me,
“Where is the Lord your God?”
My eyes will see her;
Now she will be trampled down
Like mud in the streets.

11In the day when your walls are to be built,
In that day [b]the decree shall go far and wide.
12In that day they[c] shall come to you
From Assyria and the [d]fortified cities,
From the [e]fortress to [f]the River,
From sea to sea,
And mountain to mountain.
13Yet the land shall be desolate
Because of those who dwell in it,
And for the fruit of their deeds.

God Will Forgive Israel

14Shepherd Your people with Your staff,
The flock of Your heritage,
Who dwell [g]solitarily in a woodland,
In the midst of Carmel;
Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead,
As in days of old.

15“As in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt,
I will show [h]them wonders.”

16The nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might;
They shall put their hand over their mouth;
Their ears shall be deaf.
17They shall lick the dust like a serpent;
They shall crawl from their holes like [i]snakes of the earth.
They shall be afraid of the Lord our God,
And shall fear because of You.
18Who is a God like You,
Pardoning iniquity
And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

He does not retain His anger forever,
Because He delights in mercy.[j]
19He will again have compassion on us,
And will subdue our iniquities.

You will cast all [k]our sins
Into the depths of the sea.
20You will give truth to Jacob
And [l]mercy to Abraham,
Which You have sworn to our fathers
From days of old.
"

and

:arrow:
Also referencing that not all family members are going to be on the same spiritual page, there will be those who actively work against family who follow Jesus Christ.
And it happens modern times.
It happens around the world.
It happens in small towns and big cities in the USA.

While not specifically mentioning division within family units, and being about places other then the US, these from the New York Times in 2021 and Alarabiya News in 2015 are worth reading,

Arrests, Beatings and Secret Prayers: Inside the Persecution of India’s Christians
By Jeffrey Gettleman and Suhasini Raj
Photographs by Atul Loke
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/22/worl ... acked.html

Middle Eastern Christians; death, exodus, betrayal and silence
Hisham Melhem
Published: 14 March ,2015: 12:00 AM GST Updated: 20 May ,2020: 02:55 PM GST
https://english.alarabiya.net/views/new ... d-silence-

Now we go to 2009 within a family here in the US, from ABC news,
Christian Teen Flees Home, Says She Fears Honor Killing by Muslim Father
Rifqa Bary says she fled her Ohio home fearing an honor killing.
By Sarah Netter
August 11, 2009, 1:29 PM
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=8303567&page=1

:arrow:
Now, back to that bit in Matthew:
What is the setting? What is the context? Who is that being said to? What is the purpose of Jesus saying it?
:?:
Let's look back up the chain a few sentences,
https://biblehub.com/nkjv/matthew/10.htm

"
Sending Out the Twelve
5These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: ...
...
Persecutions Are Coming

16“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless[f] as doves. 17But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

21“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.
...
"


Once again, the context does not make it any better.

If a cult leader says that joining his group will cause so much division and strife, maybe you shouldn’t join it.


_________________
Away.


Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,670
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 6:32 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Well i think that giving all your money to the church would be the most faithful to the letter of the law way to be a Christian.Jesus told people to sell everything and give to the church/poor


Jesus did not direct everyone to give all their money - he told that to some specific people whose personal value and personal priority was all in their being someone who had money, as in his encounter with the rich young ruler who went away sad because he was very wealthy, for one example.

And Jesus sometimes spoke in the manner of, "Oh, you people think you can be perfect enough in and of yourselves, in your own will, in your own power? Okay then, let's see if you can be THIS perfect ..." in order to illustrate the point that we imperfect humans are totally incapable of being perfect, which is why we need the forgiveness and salvation Jesus offers.

Jesus may of never directly told everyone to give everything but the early Christians in Jerusalem and many Christians in the first century sold everything they had and gave to the church and lived communally.In Acts 4:32 the Christians shared all their property and did not even practice private property at that point in church history.



kitesandtrainsandcats
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2016
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,473
Location: Missouri

24 Jun 2022, 6:53 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
but the early Christians in Jerusalem and many Christians in the first century sold everything they had and gave to the church and lived communally. In Acts 4:32 the Christians shared all their property and did not even practice private property at that point in church history.


And "at that point in church history" is the key, with point applying to both location point and point in time.
That is a thing they did in their locations at their time.
It is not presented as a divine directive about what everyone everywhere should do every time.


_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011


Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,670
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 7:10 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
but the early Christians in Jerusalem and many Christians in the first century sold everything they had and gave to the church and lived communally. In Acts 4:32 the Christians shared all their property and did not even practice private property at that point in church history.


And "at that point in church history" is the key, with point applying to both location point and point in time.
That is a thing they did in their locations at their time.
It is not presented as a divine directive about what everyone everywhere should do every time.

Well that is one way the church of Christ is different than denominations because we are restorationist who believe in doing things the way they were done in Acts.I just dont think the modern church of Christ is true to Acts when it comes to money.Acts is the standard the church of Christ goes by in terms of how a church should be modeled.Thats just the way we do things in the church of Christ.The church of Christ has always said that the church in Acts was the biblical example and model to go by.Same thing with first century churches in the New testament.But thats just church of Christb theology that I live by.



Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,648
Location: New York City (Queens)

24 Jun 2022, 7:21 pm

klanka wrote:
It is true that those verses are worded very strongly and seem to really indicate that we should be doing works like that.

I am on benefits myself, I used to take those verses very seriously and give away every penny of my money to itinerant Christian preachers, then I'd be in a bad mood for 2 weeks as I couldn't go food shopping. When I did give away my money I was struck with a bizarre mental illness thing which only went away when I stopped doing those types of things.

I'm glad to hear you are no longer giving away your very limited money to itinerant preachers.

klanka wrote:
So I think me trying to help others is silly as I'm poor.

... unless, perhaps, you were to join or help build a mutual aid group, i.e. a group of people committed to helping each other out, in whatever way they can, in times of especially great need?

Quite apart from Christianity or any other religion, I think it would be a good idea to create mutual aid groups within the autistic community.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter (new as of 2021)


Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,670
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 7:32 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
klanka wrote:
It is true that those verses are worded very strongly and seem to really indicate that we should be doing works like that.

I am on benefits myself, I used to take those verses very seriously and give away every penny of my money to itinerant Christian preachers, then I'd be in a bad mood for 2 weeks as I couldn't go food shopping. When I did give away my money I was struck with a bizarre mental illness thing which only went away when I stopped doing those types of things.

I'm glad to hear you are no longer giving away your very limited money to itinerant preachers.

klanka wrote:
So I think me trying to help others is silly as I'm poor.

... unless, perhaps, you were to join or help build a mutual aid group, i.e. a group of people committed to helping each other out, in whatever way they can, in times of especially great need?

Quite apart from Christianity or any other religion, I think it would be a good idea to create mutual aid groups within the autistic community.

What exactly is a mutual aid group....is it a type of tax exempt non-profit charity?Or is it way less formal than that.



Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,648
Location: New York City (Queens)

24 Jun 2022, 8:11 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
What exactly is a mutual aid group....is it a type of tax exempt non-profit charity?Or is it way less formal than that.

It can be either formal or informal. The smaller the group, the more likely to be informal. A larger group might be formally organized as a tax-exempt nonprofit charitable organization.

Here is a collection of links to pages about mutual aid groups.

EDIT: I'm not yet sure exactly what TYPE of nonprofit organization it would have to be, in terms of official government terminology. Consult a tax lawyer on this matter if you're thinking of starting a formal org.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter (new as of 2021)


Last edited by Mona Pereth on 24 Jun 2022, 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,670
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 8:38 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
What exactly is a mutual aid group....is it a type of tax exempt non-profit charity?Or is it way less formal than that.

It can be either formal or informal. The smaller the group, the more likely to be informal. A larger group might be formally organized as a tax-exempt nonprofit charitable organization.

Here is a collection of links to pages about mutual aid groups.

Oh okay thanks for clarifying.I was looking up the numbers and many religious institutions only give 1 percent or less of their budget to the poor so maybe only 1 dollar would go to the poor from a 100 dollar donation so I dont think giving to church really helps the poor in most cases much based on the pass through rate for donations.I think teaching them how to manage their money with biblical stewardship Like Dave Ramsey would be better way to combat poverty by the church instead of just giving them money.



Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,648
Location: New York City (Queens)

24 Jun 2022, 9:18 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Oh okay thanks for clarifying. I was looking up the numbers and many religious institutions only give 1 percent or less of their budget to the poor so maybe only 1 dollar would go to the poor from a 100 dollar donation so I dont think giving to church really helps the poor in most cases much based on the pass through rate for donations.

That being the case, some type of organization other than a (typical) church would likely be better for that purpose.

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I think teaching them how to manage their money with biblical stewardship Like Dave Ramsey would be better way to combat poverty by the church instead of just giving them money.

For some people, perhaps, but I wouldn't generalize. Each person and situation is different.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter (new as of 2021)


Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,670
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 10:49 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
Oh okay thanks for clarifying. I was looking up the numbers and many religious institutions only give 1 percent or less of their budget to the poor so maybe only 1 dollar would go to the poor from a 100 dollar donation so I dont think giving to church really helps the poor in most cases much based on the pass through rate for donations.

That being the case, some type of organization other than a (typical) church would likely be better for that purpose.

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I think teaching them how to manage their money with biblical stewardship Like Dave Ramsey would be better way to combat poverty by the church instead of just giving them money.

For some people, perhaps, but I wouldn't generalize. Each person and situation is different.

I believe every young poor person who is able bodied and NT can get out of poverty through hard work and the dollar cost averaging into the stock market every month and retire a millionaire at 70 to 80.If some NT person winds up homeless its most likely their fault.Every church of Christ practices giving money to the church and poor as a act of worship but nobody is required to give so I never do.

I would rather give to my church that I am starting than the United Way or Salvation Army or Goodwill.I support thousands of charities through federal income tax so i think non-profits get enough of my cash as it is.Also my tax dollars go to welfare so I am helping the poor.I also help the poor everytime I buy beer because my beer money goes towards to jobs which keep people out of poverty.I also help the poor when I shop at Walmart or Amazon online or Target or any other time I spend money.Besides many secular non-profits have horrible pass through rates and bloated budgets and put donations in the stock market which does no good for the poor when it is just growing in value never to be used.



Last edited by Texasmoneyman300 on 24 Jun 2022, 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,924
Location: I'm right here

24 Jun 2022, 11:33 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I believe every young poor person who is able bodied and NT can get out of poverty through hard work and the dollar cost averaging into the stock market every month and retire a millionaire at 70 to 80.


You can believe it all you like but that doesn't mean it's a belief that's grounded in reality. Is there any evidence to substantiate the belief, or is it really nothing more than something you feel should be true?


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,924
Location: I'm right here

24 Jun 2022, 11:42 pm

Image


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,670
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 11:48 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I believe every young poor person who is able bodied and NT can get out of poverty through hard work and the dollar cost averaging into the stock market every month and retire a millionaire at 70 to 80.


You can believe it all you like but that doesn't mean it's a belief that's grounded in reality. Is there any evidence to substantiate the belief, or is it really nothing more than something you feel should be true?

millions of regular americans are first generation self made millionaires.80 percent of millionaires are self-made in this country.I have known many self-made millionaires in my life who came from humble backgrounds.Just read the Millionaire Next Door or the Next Millionaire Next Door to see how it is very possible still.I would encourage you to get acquainted with Graham Stephan because he tells how regular people today from humble backgrounds can retire millionaires through faithful investing in index funds.Warren Buffett agrees that every young NT American can retire a stock market millionaire



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 37
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 17,924
Location: I'm right here

24 Jun 2022, 11:56 pm

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I believe every young poor person who is able bodied and NT can get out of poverty through hard work and the dollar cost averaging into the stock market every month and retire a millionaire at 70 to 80.


You can believe it all you like but that doesn't mean it's a belief that's grounded in reality. Is there any evidence to substantiate the belief, or is it really nothing more than something you feel should be true?

millions of regular americans are first generation self made millionaires.80 percent of millionaires are self-made in this country.I have known many self-made millionaires in my life who came from humble backgrounds.Just read the Millionaire Next Door or the Next Millionaire Next Door to see how it is very possible still.I would encourage you to get acquainted with Graham Stephan because he tells how regular people today from humble backgrounds can retire millionaires through faithful investing in index funds.Warren Buffett agrees that every young NT American can retire a stock market millionaire


Are you able to substantiate those claims at all because they just sound like slogans from hucksters who sell books with titles like The Millionaire Next Door.

People can claim all sorts of things in a book but it doesn't make those things true and in particular these claims simply aren't reflected in reality. If they were, more people would be better off but instead it's just people who grew up well off shaming people who are less well off for not taking the same steps they took, regardless of whether or not those steps were even available as options.

It's about as grounded in reality as boomers blaming avocado toast for why younger generations have less wealth than they did.


_________________
You can't buy happiness; steal it.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,670
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 11:58 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Image

I would rather not get into that because I think that not relevant to the poor becoming millionaies but those verses dont apply to abortion but rather God was commanding the Israelites to kill wipe out gentiles in the Old Testament.



Texasmoneyman300
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2021
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,670
Location: Texas

24 Jun 2022, 11:59 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I believe every young poor person who is able bodied and NT can get out of poverty through hard work and the dollar cost averaging into the stock market every month and retire a millionaire at 70 to 80.


You can believe it all you like but that doesn't mean it's a belief that's grounded in reality. Is there any evidence to substantiate the belief, or is it really nothing more than something you feel should be true?

millions of regular americans are first generation self made millionaires.80 percent of millionaires are self-made in this country.I have known many self-made millionaires in my life who came from humble backgrounds.Just read the Millionaire Next Door or the Next Millionaire Next Door to see how it is very possible still.I would encourage you to get acquainted with Graham Stephan because he tells how regular people today from humble backgrounds can retire millionaires through faithful investing in index funds.Warren Buffett agrees that every young NT American can retire a stock market millionaire


Are you able to substantiate those claims at all because they just sound like slogans from hucksters who sell books with titles like The Millionaire Next Door.

People can claim all sorts of things in a book but it doesn't make those things true and in particular these claims simply aren't reflected in reality. If they were, more people would be better off but instead it's just people who grew up well off shaming people who are less well off for not taking the same steps they took, regardless of whether or not those steps were even available as options.

It's about as grounded in reality as boomers blaming avocado toast for why younger generations have less wealth than they did.

Well I just agree to disagree.