Sniper kills at least 6 at Chicago Suburb July 4th parade

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ASPartOfMe
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05 Jul 2022, 6:43 pm

As to this case so far what has been publicized is not pointing towered MAGA/alt right terrorism as the prime motivator. The suspect is a very active social media poster yet only two posts showed him supporting MAGA. Usually these guys are obsessed with The Great Replacement Theory or whatever. What about his targeting of the Independence Day parade and his casing of the synagogue, are not these targets proof? Not necessarily. Did he want to kill people in the locales because of what they represent or because that is where a lot of people are?. Highland Park his hometown has a large Jewish population so a local synagogue is going to be where a lot of people are. It is possible politics played an indirect role, he might be mostly non ideological but since politics is in the news so much subconsciously he chose symbolic targets.

I notice a lot of wanting MAGA terrorism to be the reason this happened. Another cudgel to own the MAGA’s I guess. If this was not MAGA terrorism what will it mean, the conservatives will own the libs for a day or two, which will not lesson the threat from MAGA terrorism one iota.


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05 Jul 2022, 7:06 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Raptor wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
If it's clear that what is being discussed are guns that are identical to assault rifles except for lacking select fire it's needlessly pedantic to act like the definition being used not matching some preferred definition somehow refutes any part of the discussion.


A weapon-of-war, then?
Because of course, innocent people at 4th of July parades are legally at war? :evil:


It seems like the bickering over nomenclature is supposed to convince us that a self-loading carbine with an inline stock and high capacity, detachable box magazine is only a problem if it has select fire as an option when time and again it's proven that select fire isn't needed to massacre a bunch of unarmed civilians.


Can't speak for others but in my case I don't think I've ever tried to convince anyone that an AR-15 or any other of that type is a world apart from it's M-16 counterpart. The difference between select fire and semi-auto isn't that significant when we're talking AR-15 vs. M-16. I don't call my AR's sporting or hunting rifles because that's not why I bought them. I haven't taken tactical carbine, handgun, and shotgun courses for hunting, I took them to give me an edge should the s**t ever hit the fan.

Does it bother me to be thought of as a terrorist or insurrectionist?
Not at all.
In fact, I enjoy those labels. :P


Would you agree that those sorts of tangential arguments over nomenclature don't contribute to any worthwhile discussion?

Personally, that's where I'll start using another term like 'self loading carbine' or something similar with more words in hopes of moving the conversation beyond that part and back towards questions like what's ideal in terms of gun rights vs what's actually viable; if control isn't pursued what other measures might achieve similar outcomes in reducing criminal gun violence; how does protecting gun rights impact other rights vs. how would further restrictions impact other rights, etc.

It's a topic with a lot to consider at both ideal and practical levels, but it often seems to be reduced to very oversimplified stances.

In regards to the US though, there's clearly a problem that if it's not resolved will only lead to increasingly radical solutions being proposed. I'd imagine for all interests involved it would be better to work towards improvements than to wait until there's serious discussion of a constitutional amendment to eliminate or significantly alter the 2nd because that will start to enter the discussion if no improvement is seen and if adequate political will behind it exists nothing will legitimately stop that outcome.

I prefer the term "tactical carbine" if it meets the criteria of a carbine.
As for discussing "solutions", I'll just tell you to copy and paste "gunz-r-bad" or "guns-r-bad" into the WP search window. I intentionally put that in the gun control debates we've had here in the past. Those should give you plenty of reading material to see how well those topics have already been beaten to death.....over and over.......for SEVERAL years.


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funeralxempire
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05 Jul 2022, 7:16 pm

It probably needs to be considered on many levels, and not let any of them dominate the others.

Regardless of the prime motive, it's part of a broader trend of mass shootings, it might also follow into one or more narrower trends within that bigger trend (mental illness, terrorism, etc).

Using a trend of violence from right-wingers to bash on more moderate right-wingers probably doesn't accomplish much, because so far it isn't the moderates unless mental illness is a substantial factor alongside it.

It might also make it harder for people to realize that terrorist bullets and/or shrapnel doesn't discriminate, but also that they care about people who might be targeted. Increase in politically motivated terrorism is likely to cause broader harms than intended and it also risks tit-for-tat responses, along with encouraging police to be more heavy handed.

We need to be able to openly discuss motives without losing sight that most people have commonly aligned interests that make reducing these sorts of incidents less common.


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funeralxempire
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05 Jul 2022, 7:22 pm

Raptor wrote:
I prefer the term "tactical carbine" if it meets the criteria of a carbine.
As for discussing "solutions", I'll just tell you to copy and paste "gunz-r-bad" or "guns-r-bad" into the WP search window. I intentionally put that in the gun control debates we've had here in the past. Those should give you plenty of reading material to see how well those topics have already been beaten to death.....over and over.......for SEVERAL years.


Certainly, it's been done to death here, also often without much in the way of agreeable solutions but I think the problem goes deeper.

As a hypothetical, imagine there's some magical plan that's agreeable to 98% of Americans and includes many people who could be considered staunch supporters of both positions. (That's why it's magical)

I still foresee politicians from both parties, whether the more moderate portions or the more radical ones having no interest because fighting over the issue drives attention and donations along with distracting from other issues that might be less flattering or harder to fundraise off of.


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05 Jul 2022, 8:48 pm

I'm not normally on the "prosecute the parents" bandwagon, but ...
... and I'm kind of thinking the State Police might should be prosecuted too ...
"
The assault happened less than three years after police went to the suspect’s home following a call from a family member who said he was threatening “to kill everyone” there. Task force spokesman Christopher Covelli said police confiscated 16 knives, a dagger and a sword, but said there was no sign he had any guns at the time, in September 2019.

Police in April 2019 also responded to a reported suicide attempt by the suspect, Covelli said.

The suspect legally purchased the rifle used in the attack in Illinois within the past year, Covelli said. In all, police said, he purchased five firearms, which were recovered by officers at his father’s home.

Illinois state police, who issue gun owners’ licenses, said the gunman applied for a license in December 2019, when he was 19. His father sponsored his application.

At the time “there was insufficient basis to establish a clear and present danger” and deny the application, state police said in a statement.
"

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/death ... eid=yhoof2


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05 Jul 2022, 9:44 pm

Dang, man, Chicago was a war zone for the holiday,

68 People Shot, 8 Killed in Shootings Across Chicago Over July 4th Weekend: Police
Matt Masterson | July 5, 2022 4:13 pm
https://news.wttw.com/2022/07/05/68-peo ... end-police
"
According to Chicago Police Department data, 68 people were shot in 51 separate shootings between 6 p.m. Friday and 11:59 p.m. Monday night during the holiday weekend.
"
...
"
According to Police Superintendent David Brown, violence levels over the holiday weekend this year were lower than in 2021. For the Fourth of July weekend in 2022 compared to 2021, shootings were down 14%, the number of shooting victims decreased 21%, and the number of homicides dropped by 53%.
"


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IsabellaLinton
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05 Jul 2022, 9:50 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
I'm not normally on the "prosecute the parents" bandwagon, but ...
... and I'm kind of thinking the State Police might should be prosecuted too ...
"
The assault happened less than three years after police went to the suspect’s home following a call from a family member who said he was threatening “to kill everyone” there. Task force spokesman Christopher Covelli said police confiscated 16 knives, a dagger and a sword, but said there was no sign he had any guns at the time, in September 2019.

Police in April 2019 also responded to a reported suicide attempt by the suspect, Covelli said.

The suspect legally purchased the rifle used in the attack in Illinois within the past year, Covelli said. In all, police said, he purchased five firearms, which were recovered by officers at his father’s home.

Illinois state police, who issue gun owners’ licenses, said the gunman applied for a license in December 2019, when he was 19. His father sponsored his application.

At the time “there was insufficient basis to establish a clear and present danger” and deny the application, state police said in a statement.
"

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/death ... eid=yhoof2


How does that work?

Who's responsible for issuing bad licences? The shop? The state government? The city?

Some guy who likes guns?



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05 Jul 2022, 10:53 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I notice a lot of wanting MAGA terrorism to be the reason this happened. Another cudgel to own the MAGA’s I guess. If this was not MAGA terrorism what will it mean, the conservatives will own the libs for a day or two, which will not lesson the threat from MAGA terrorism one iota.


Rather than wanting this to be pinned on the MAGAs, many of these shootings are self-fulfilling prophecies in that the invariably the shooter was linked in some way to one of various conspiracies peddled by the republican right. This means even if MAGA philosophy wasn't the prime reason for their actions, they certainly help tip these nutters over the edge. Like Sarah Palin's use of gun targets over Kathy Gifford normalising the idea that "enemies" of the American right wing deserve to be shot.

It's no accident that Tucker Carlson peddles the "great replacement" because he's gauged his republican viewers and knows what they believe. These clowns collectively create a fertile ground for future gun nuts to emerge and then have the audacity to wash the blood of their hands like Pontious Pilate.



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06 Jul 2022, 8:05 am

Another young white dude. A fairly consistent pattern.



ASPartOfMe
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06 Jul 2022, 11:38 am

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I notice a lot of wanting MAGA terrorism to be the reason this happened. Another cudgel to own the MAGA’s I guess. If this was not MAGA terrorism what will it mean, the conservatives will own the libs for a day or two, which will not lesson the threat from MAGA terrorism one iota.


Rather than wanting this to be pinned on the MAGAs, many of these shootings are self-fulfilling prophecies in that the invariably the shooter was linked in some way to one of various conspiracies peddled by the republican right. This means even if MAGA philosophy wasn't the prime reason for their actions, they certainly help tip these nutters over the edge.

Preaching to the choir. I mentioned indirect causation as a possibility in my post.

cyberdad wrote:
Like Sarah Palin's use of gun targets over Kathy Gifford normalising the idea that "enemies" of the American right wing deserve to be shot.

It's no accident that Tucker Carlson peddles the "great replacement" because he's gauged his republican viewers and knows what they believe. These clowns collectively create a fertile ground for future gun nuts to emerge and then have the audacity to wash the blood of their hands like Pontious Pilate.

I have seen no evidence, that Buffalo, Uvalde, and Highland Park shooters were influenced by, listen to, or know of Tucker Carlson. It’s social media for that age group. Tuckers audience is an age group that votes in authoritarian candidates.


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06 Jul 2022, 2:06 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I notice a lot of wanting MAGA terrorism to be the reason this happened. Another cudgel to own the MAGA’s I guess. If this was not MAGA terrorism what will it mean, the conservatives will own the libs for a day or two, which will not lesson the threat from MAGA terrorism one iota.


Rather than wanting this to be pinned on the MAGAs, many of these shootings are self-fulfilling prophecies in that the invariably the shooter was linked in some way to one of various conspiracies peddled by the republican right. This means even if MAGA philosophy wasn't the prime reason for their actions, they certainly help tip these nutters over the edge.

Preaching to the choir. I mentioned indirect causation as a possibility in my post.

cyberdad wrote:
Like Sarah Palin's use of gun targets over Kathy Gifford normalising the idea that "enemies" of the American right wing deserve to be shot.

It's no accident that Tucker Carlson peddles the "great replacement" because he's gauged his republican viewers and knows what they believe. These clowns collectively create a fertile ground for future gun nuts to emerge and then have the audacity to wash the blood of their hands like Pontious Pilate.

I have seen no evidence, that Buffalo, Uvalde, and Highland Park shooters were influenced by, listen to, or know of Tucker Carlson. It’s social media for that age group. Tuckers audience is an age group that votes in authoritarian candidates.


They like to blame people like Carlson in the hopes that they will someday be banned in order to save lives, while at the same time labeling conservatives as “authoritarian”. :roll:


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06 Jul 2022, 4:36 pm

Suspect confesses to Highland Park shooting and plotted second attack in Wisconsin, prosecutor says

Quote:
The man accused of killing seven people at a Fourth of July parade confessed in detail to the shooting — and revealed that he had considered a second attack, authorities said Wednesday.

Robert “Bobby” E. Crimo III, 21, has been charged with seven counts of first-degree murder, and will likely face many more counts stemming from the dozens wounded and injured during Monday's carnage in this upscale Chicago suburb.

"He went into details about what he had done. He admitted to what he had done," Lake County State’s Attorney Eric Rinehart told reporters outside of the county courthouse. "We don't want to speculate on motives right now."
Crimo made the confession in a voluntary statement after being reminded of his right to remain silent, officials said.

After fleeing Highland Park, Crimo ended up in Madison, Wisconsin, and came upon a Fourth of July event there, said Chris Covelli, a spokesman for the Lake County Major Crime Task Force.

He briefly thought about unleashing an attack in that city as well, according to the official.

“We don’t have information to suggest that he planned on driving to Madison, initially, to commit another attack,” Covelli said. “We do believe that he was driving around (after) the first attack and saw the celebration.”

Covelli didn't say what particular event Crimo considered attacking. There were a number of festivals and fireworks shows happening in and around the famed college town Monday.

The defendant dropped his cellphone in Middleton, just outside Madison, and it's been recovered, authorities said.

Asked what might have stopped him from attacking Madison, Covelli said, “Indications are that he hadn't put enough thought or research into that.”

The FBI asked Madison police to assemble their SWAT unit at about 5 p.m. Monday, believing Crimo could be nearby, city police chief Shon Barnes said.

"We will never know for certain what stopped him but I am thankful that no innocent lives were taken from our city," Barnes told reporters in Madison.

City police are cooperating with the FBI, looking for surveillance cameras that could piece together a timeline of Crimo's movements in Madison.

At this point it's completely unknown, as Barnes added: "We were not aware of his intentions in the city (of Madison) until this morning."

Records showed Crimo purchased four weapons in 2020, the AR-15-style weapon used in Monday’s attack, a Kel-Tec sub-2000, a Remington 700 rifle and a shotgun, according to Covelli. Then in 2021, Crimo bought a Glock 43x pistol, the official said.

Crimo had that Kel-Tec weapon with him during that trip to Madison on Monday, according to Covelli.


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06 Jul 2022, 5:36 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Dang, man, Chicago was a war zone for the holiday,

68 People Shot, 8 Killed in Shootings Across Chicago Over July 4th Weekend: Police
Matt Masterson | July 5, 2022 4:13 pm
https://news.wttw.com/2022/07/05/68-peo ... end-police
"
According to Chicago Police Department data, 68 people were shot in 51 separate shootings between 6 p.m. Friday and 11:59 p.m. Monday night during the holiday weekend.
"
...
"
According to Police Superintendent David Brown, violence levels over the holiday weekend this year were lower than in 2021. For the Fourth of July weekend in 2022 compared to 2021, shootings were down 14%, the number of shooting victims decreased 21%, and the number of homicides dropped by 53%.
"


Over 50 shot as NYC shootings soared over July 4th weekend, NYPD data shows
Quote:
More than 50 people were shot — at least seven of them fatally — during a bloody outbreak of gun violence in the Big Apple over the Fourth of July weekend.

The victims cut across a wide spectrum of New Yorkers — from a pair of former college rugby players wounded while sitting in a cab in Midtown to a beloved 62-year-old Bronx neighborhood “grandfather” who was gunned down by stray bullets.

In all, 51 people were shot in 36 separate incidents since Friday, a huge jump from the 32 people shot in 27 shootings over the holiday weekend last year, NYPD statistics show.

Twenty-one of this year’s holiday weekend victims were shot on Monday’s 246th birthday of American independence, including John Edwards, who was known in his Belmont neighborhood as the “Grandfather of the Block.” By comparison, there were 13 people shot on July 4, 2021.

One of the weekend’s earliest flashes of gun violence came in broad daylight Friday afternoon, when a 17-year-old boy was killed in Hamilton Heights after a gunman fired a barrage of bullets on the busy street.


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06 Jul 2022, 6:00 pm

Raptor wrote:
They like to blame people like Carlson in the hopes that they will someday be banned in order to save lives, while at the same time labeling conservatives as “authoritarian”. :roll:


"They" don't want to cancel anyone. Carlson and Trump need to be held accountable for what they preach and face the obvious which is there are consequences for spouting divisive hate speech. BTW they are both charlatans because in their past they threw their support for progressives (Trump famously was friends with the Clintons).

There's an interesting video of how Tucker Carlson code switches his language when the shooter is black Vs a white right winger. He attempts to covertly try to make external excuses for white shooters. This fits with his current persona as the vanguard for the conservative white right. He has hitched his bandwagon to the MAGA circus so must be accountable for what he says. He promotes the great replacement theory and there have been plenty of young white shooters who subscribe to the same beliefs.



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06 Jul 2022, 7:15 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
They like to blame people like Carlson in the hopes that they will someday be banned in order to save lives, while at the same time labeling conservatives as “authoritarian”. :roll:


"They" don't want to cancel anyone. Carlson and Trump need to be held accountable for what they preach and face the obvious which is there are consequences for spouting divisive hate speech. BTW they are both charlatans because in their past they threw their support for progressives (Trump famously was friends with the Clintons).

There's an interesting video of how Tucker Carlson code switches his language when the shooter is black Vs a white right winger. He attempts to covertly try to make external excuses for white shooters. This fits with his current persona as the vanguard for the conservative white right. He has hitched his bandwagon to the MAGA circus so must be accountable for what he says. He promotes the great replacement theory and there have been plenty of young white shooters who subscribe to the same beliefs.

Wow, I could have a field day picking this one apart.
Seriously, "code switches" ??
And then there's defining "divisive hate speech".


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06 Jul 2022, 8:34 pm

Raptor wrote:
Seriously, "code switches" ??
And then there's defining "divisive hate speech".


Carlson has a modus operandi. So does Trump.

The great replacement theory is tied to far right philosophies (Carlson knows this) which has spurred a number of mass shooters.