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SkinnedWolf
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04 Jul 2022, 12:35 pm

Personal backup of special historical data.
Only represents counter intuitive data collation.
Does not represent personal views.


1. Marx and Engels supported owning guns.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm

Quote:
To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory, the workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens’ militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed. Where the formation of this militia cannot be prevented, the workers must try to organize themselves independently as a proletarian guard, with elected leaders and with their own elected general staff; they must try to place themselves not under the orders of the state authority but of the revolutionary local councils set up by the workers. Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising.


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Fnord
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04 Jul 2022, 12:48 pm

Are you implying that it is the Right-Wing Conservatives who are the only true heirs to Communism, and not the Left-Wing Liberals?



SkinnedWolf
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04 Jul 2022, 12:50 pm

American self-determination has nothing to do with me. I don't support holding guns in my community.
Both parties in the United States have nothing to do with Marxism.

However, historical facts are historical facts.
If them make people(including/mainly myself) confused about the real world, it is not their responsibility.
This will not be the only one.


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funeralxempire
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04 Jul 2022, 1:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Are you implying that it is the Right-Wing Conservatives who are the only true heirs to Communism, and not the Left-Wing Liberals?


Are you implying that only right wingers can support gun rights and that no left wingers consider self-defence from individuals or the state to be a valid concern? :scratch:

Also, liberals aren't leftists, they're merely to the left of more conservative and reactionary types. The ideological preferences of liberals are irrelevant to how leftists might stand on an issue.


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Last edited by funeralxempire on 04 Jul 2022, 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

roronoa79
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04 Jul 2022, 3:11 pm

Pro-gun leftist here.

I can respect leftists who oppose gun ownership, but they should not claim to support revolution if they oppose guns. Working within the capitalist system is inherently limiting. The right and center will use every legal and political tactic possible to undermine leftist attempts to work within the system.

Revolutionary change does not happen by asking nicely. Do not enable the state's monopoly on violence by voluntarily disarming yourself--or at least do not claim to support revolution if you do so.

SkinnedWolf wrote:
I don't support holding guns in my community.

I am curious to hear more of a Chinese perspective on this. I can understand not wanting guns in your community personally, but what of us who still chafe under capitalism? The nationalists were overthrown by force of arms in the hands of everyday people. The capitalist state is much, much harder to challenge without the means to defend ourselves and our rights as workers.


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides


SkinnedWolf
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04 Jul 2022, 3:31 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
I don't support holding guns in my community.

I am curious to hear more of a Chinese perspective on this. I can understand not wanting guns in your community personally, but what of us who still chafe under capitalism? The nationalists were overthrown by force of arms in the hands of everyday people. The capitalist state is much, much harder to challenge without the means to defend ourselves and our rights as workers.

China actually completed the gun ban around 2000.
In the gap between this and China's capitalization, this did not make workers better able to resist power (whether from the government or capital).
On the contrary, it is only contributing to the failure of grass-roots governance and the jungle law of the bottom society. Gun owners tend to seek compensation from weaker people rather than stronger ones.
The bottom is the biggest victim of this kind of public security failure.


Basically, I only support reform rather than violent revolution.
China's recent history of more than 100 years are violent revolutions with countless propositions. China has unusually lost its regular position in the world in history, which is related to this.
I now live in the result of the violent revolution on the left. It can no longer be called a left. And this is even the best result that violent revolution in this land can achieve.

I don't trust revolution. Before being cornered, that's not the choice I want.


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roronoa79
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04 Jul 2022, 3:44 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
I don't support holding guns in my community.

I am curious to hear more of a Chinese perspective on this. I can understand not wanting guns in your community personally, but what of us who still chafe under capitalism? The nationalists were overthrown by force of arms in the hands of everyday people. The capitalist state is much, much harder to challenge without the means to defend ourselves and our rights as workers.

China actually completed the gun ban around 2000.
In the gap between this and China's capitalization, this did not make workers better able to resist power (whether from the government or capital).
On the contrary, it is only contributing to the failure of grass-roots governance and the jungle law of the bottom society. Gun owners tend to seek compensation from weaker people rather than stronger ones.
The bottom is the biggest victim of this kind of public security failure.


Basically, I only support reform rather than violent revolution.
China's recent history of more than 100 years are violent revolutions with countless propositions. China has unusually lost its regular position in the world in history, which is related to this.
I now live in the result of the violent revolution on the left. It can no longer be called a left. And this is even the best result that violent revolution in this land can achieve.

I don't trust revolution. Before being cornered, that's not the choice I want.

Thank you for the perspective.


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides


Mona Pereth
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05 Jul 2022, 2:33 am

roronoa79 wrote:
Pro-gun leftist here.

I can respect leftists who oppose gun ownership, but they should not claim to support revolution if they oppose guns. Working within the capitalist system is inherently limiting. The right and center will use every legal and political tactic possible to undermine leftist attempts to work within the system.

The right wing also has many more guns than the left. A violent revolution is more likely to lead to fascistic tyranny than to any real improvement.

As for "working within the capitalist system," significant change CAN happen if enough people become sufficiently organized.

The big problem is getting enough people to become sufficiently organized. But such organization is necessary regardless of whether your ultimate aim is substantial change from within the system or a truly democratic revolution.

roronoa79 wrote:
Revolutionary change does not happen by asking nicely.

The point is not to "ask nicely" but to become organized enough to exert real pressure.

But it is better if such pressure can be exerted without physical violence -- or, at least, with as little violence as possible. Under the right circumstances, nonviolent direct action has indeed worked.


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SkinnedWolf
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05 Jul 2022, 2:44 am

yes. The key is the left-wing social consensus with a base.
Otherwise, without sufficient foundation, even if the left wing wins in the violence, it will have to exert enough repression to maintain the revolutionary achievements - produce the vanguardism tendency, and then be usurped from within after failing to maintain vanguardism.
This usually lasts only a generation. It would be sad if the result of the bloodshed that turned life upside down was just that.

If social consensus does change, it doesn't matter whether you hold guns or not.

And when facing the state machine, there is no essential difference between what you hold a kitchen knife and a pistol. The difference in firepower faced by Marx and Engels' era is very different from that at present.
If guns do not contribute to this goal, then the other goals it contributes to are not the part that the left likes.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

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roronoa79
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05 Jul 2022, 2:03 pm

I agree with most of what y'all are saying. I did not mean to suggest violent revolution was the only solution, merely that part of worker organization must include self defense or else we will be viewed as toothless.

Using solely violent means without social organizing or support is a good way to destroy your legitimacy and makes repression the only way to maintain power. The Bolsheviks are a good example. There was a sizable left in Imperial Russia, but the Bolsheviks were only a part of it. They undermined their long term ability to hold onto power by betraying the rest of the left and abusing the general population. This meant that when the USSR attempted reforms in the 80s, the first thing people did was denounce the regime and abandon communism.
This has done devastating damage to the left in eastern Europe, as they are seen as violent and facetious in their claims of representing the common man and democracy.


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides


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05 Jul 2022, 3:11 pm

That's largely aligned with my understanding, that the failure to build a broad enough power base effectively ensured they'd always exist as something that was imposing itself rather than something that enough people felt invested in because it represented their interests.

This seems to be something representative democracies do well, even sometimes when it's ceased to be true people believe they have influence, or at least can potentially have it.


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funeralxempire
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05 Jul 2022, 4:02 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Pro-gun leftist here.

I can respect leftists who oppose gun ownership, but they should not claim to support revolution if they oppose guns. Working within the capitalist system is inherently limiting. The right and center will use every legal and political tactic possible to undermine leftist attempts to work within the system.

The right wing also has many more guns than the left. A violent revolution is more likely to lead to fascistic tyranny than to any real improvement.

As for "working within the capitalist system," significant change CAN happen if enough people become sufficiently organized.

The big problem is getting enough people to become sufficiently organized. But such organization is necessary regardless of whether your ultimate aim is substantial change from within the system or a truly democratic revolution.

roronoa79 wrote:
Revolutionary change does not happen by asking nicely.

The point is not to "ask nicely" but to become organized enough to exert real pressure.

But it is better if such pressure can be exerted without physical violence -- or, at least, with as little violence as possible. Under the right circumstances, nonviolent direct action has indeed worked.


You might need to have both options on the table. People are more inclined to listen to pacifists when they realize failure to do so will legitimize more radical types. Kennedy seemed to understand this. Malcolm X made observations about his role (at the time) compared to pacifists.

The less room for non-violent action that exists the more violent action will be viewed as the only viable option.


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06 Jul 2022, 10:03 am

2. The views of the Communist Party of China on democracy.
Xinhua Daily, the organ newspaper of the former Central Committee of the Communist Party of China, was founded in Hankou on January 11, 1938, and was suspended by the government of the Republic of China on February 28, 1947. It was reissued in Nanjing on April 30, 1949. It is now the organ newspaper of the CPC Jiangsu Provincial Committee and is sponsored by Xinhua Daily newspaper group.

The following is from its editorial section.

"democratic politics"2/25/1939

Quote:
They think that the realization of democratic politics in China is not something today, but a few years later. They hope that the knowledge and education of the Chinese people will be improved to the level of bourgeois democratic countries in Europe and the United States, and then realize democratic politics... It is under the democratic system that it is easier to educate and train the people.

"democratic spirit"8/29/1942
Quote:
This shows that UK and US also respect people's democratic freedoms such as speech and publication in wartime. The adoption of these major measures by the UK and US democracies shows that the two countries respect and attach importance to the Communist Party and other parties, as well as the opinions and forces they represent... At the same time, there are also some criticisms. Whether his criticism is right or not is another matter. This spirit of democratic unity is commendable and worthy of promotion and imitation... It is the democratic spirit of Britain and the United States that all parties in the country can work harmoniously to the end for the common goal, and it is also something that our country should urgently promote and emulate.

"democracy first"9/15/1943
Quote:
Due to the different historical development, social conditions and other specific conditions of each country, there may be many differences in the form and content of their respective democratic politics. But in any case, there is a basic point between them, that is, the regime is owned by the people, used by the people, and serves the happiness and interests of the people. Such a regime must respect and protect the freedom of the people By rights; Enable the people who have lost their right to freedom to regain their right to freedom; Those who have not lost the right to freedom fully enjoy the right to freedom; In particular, the minimum freedom rights of the people, such as speech, publishing, opportunity and association, which are the basic conditions for the implementation of democratic politics, must be effectively and fully guaranteed.

"domestic democracy and international democracy"1/19/1944
Quote:
Since international democracy is inseparable from domestic democracy, people who want to participate in the family of democratic countries in the world cannot violate the principles of domestic democracy.

"Protection of people's basic democratic rights -- on Mr. Zhang Junli's proposal"2/1/1944
Quote:
UK and US are democratic countries. This is universally acknowledged...In order to win the war of resistance against Japan, for post-war peace, for political progress, and for international status, we must start from the protection of basic democratic rights. Fear is cowardice, doubt is selfishness, and opposition is reaction. We once again call for safeguarding the basic democratic rights of the people.

"On the right to vote"2/2/1944
Quote:
The civil rights enjoyed by the people cannot be more extensive and direct than the lower level. However, although the right to vote for the central government, it can also be used without restrictions. In particular, the so-called representative organs representing the people, whether the Congress or the people's Congress, must be composed of representatives elected by the people themselves, otherwise such organs are not public bodies.

Whether the right to vote can be thoroughly, fully and effectively used is closely related to whether the right to be elected is unreasonably restricted and deprived. Originally, broadly speaking, the right to vote includes the right to be elected. If there is the use of the right to vote, there must be the object to be elected; Therefore, with the existence of the right to vote, there is also the right to be elected. If the right to be elected is restricted, the use of the right to vote is also restricted. Specifically, if some people are deprived of the right to be elected, those who have the right to vote will not be able to elect them, so the use of the right to vote will be limited. Therefore, the real universal suffrage system should not only "popularize" and "equal" the right to vote. Moreover, the right to be elected should also be "universal" and "equal". Not only should the people enjoy the same right to vote, but also the people should enjoy the same right to be elected. Except for people who are "mentally deficient" or "deprived of public rights by the court", as well as traitors, no one's right to be elected should be restricted or deprived. Not only should we not take the number of assets, high status and power as the standard, but also should we not take the advantages and disadvantages of knowledge and how much knowledge as the standard. The only standard is whether it can represent the people's will and interests, and whether it is supported by the people. Therefore, it is only for the people to choose. If a qualification to be elected is limited in advance, or even a certain number of candidates are proposed by the official, then even if the right to vote is not restricted, the voters will only be used as a tool for voting.

Finally, it should be said that to thoroughly, fully and effectively implement the universal suffrage system, so that the people can enjoy the "ordinary" and "equal" right to vote and stand for election in practice, we must, as Dr. Sun Yat Sen said, before the election, "guarantee the freedom of local organizations and people to vote, and the freedom to propose proposals, publicize and discuss." That is, "to ensure that the people have complete freedom of assembly, association, speech and publication." Otherwise, the so-called right to vote is still just a right on paper.

"The crisis of publishing"6/26/1945
Quote:
To truly achieve freedom of the press, we must completely abolish the current inspection methods, and we must also have full freedom in paper, printing, transportation and other aspects.

"Fighting for democracy is a matter for the people of the whole nation"7/3/1945
Quote:
There was once a view that democracy could be given by others. Thinking that there are good people in the world who give democracy to the people, there is waiting for this kind of "democracy", just like waiting for the first prize of 2 million yuan. However, history at home and abroad has proved that democracy is the result of the people's struggle and fighting, and it is by no means a lucky gift.

"A day symbolizing democracy and freedom"7/4/1945
Quote:
The young Democratic United States once produced Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Wilson, and Roosevelt, the Democratic leader who led the anti fascist war in this world war. These great citizens have a traditional characteristic, that is, democracy, which is to strive for freedom and democracy for the majority of the people. The United States is now one of the four major countries of the United Nations in the anti fascist war, and has undertaken the great responsibility of completely eradicating fascism, eradicating aggression, and establishing permanent peace and security in the world. From the revolutionary history of the United States, the traditional spirit of the American people's love for democracy and freedom, and the real interests of the American people, we are convinced that the United States will continue Roosevelt's democratic policy and will not ignore the voices of the world, especially the Chinese people, The demands of the people.

"Democracy on track"9/27/1945
Quote:
In a democratic country, sovereignty should be in the hands of the people, which is a matter of course; If a country is called a democracy, and its sovereignty is not in the hands of the people, it is by no means on the right track. It can only be regarded as a pervert, and it is not a democratic country.
... freedom of speech, publication, assembly and person are the minimum conditions of democracy, but they believe that requiring these conditions is an obstruction to democracy. How can democracy be achieved without the legitimate status of parties, the abolition of all laws and organizations that restrict the people, the end of Party governance, and the implementation of universal suffrage Please go on the right track of Democracy: hand over the rights of the people to the people!

"One party dictatorship is full of disasters"3/30/1946
Quote:
Open the map of our country, open your eyes and see that there is no famine in the areas under the one party dictatorship of the Kuomintang? Judging from the materials published in newspapers alone, we can see that the famine is extremely serious. For example, Hunan, Henan, Anhui, Guangdong, Guangxi, Jiangsu, Hubei, Jiangxi, Sichuan, and Shaanxi, Gansu, Qinghai, Yunnan and other provinces are really full of disasters, especially in Hunan and other places, which is really terrible..."Building the country with agriculture" in China, standing in the midst of such a rural bankruptcy, and saying that China has no economic crisis, is simply a lie. That is just a self deceptive trick that the leaders of the Kuomintang one party can't solve!...
To be honest, the civil war of the reactionaries in the Kuomintang and the policy of maintaining one party dictatorship are based on creating hunger and famine. Therefore, these fundamental measures for disaster relief can be satisfactorily solved only when the Kuomintang determines to work with all parties on the path of peace and democracy.


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SkinnedWolf
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10 Jul 2022, 1:08 am

3.IS YUGOSLAVIA A SOCIALIST COUNTRY?
COMMENT ON THE OPEN LETTER OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE CPSU (III)
by the Editorial Departments of Renmin Ribao (People's Daily) and Hongqi (Red Flag) September 26, 1963

Brief summary:

1. Yugoslavia has a large number of private capital and private enterprises, and tax policies are used to encourage the development of private enterprises, which is also written into the constitution;

2. Yugoslavia has a close relationship with the United States, receiving a large amount of Western assistance and investment, and Yugoslavia has become an imperialist investment field;

3. Yugoslavia allows individuals to buy and sell foreign exchange and engage in foreign trade. As we all know, foreign trade is monopolized by the state, which is the basic principle of socialism;

4. Yugoslavia does not enforce agricultural collectivization. Since 1951, a large number of agricultural cooperatives have been dissolved, and there are a large number of rich farmers in the countryside. They also viciously cursed that "collectivization and deprivation are one thing";

5. The Yugoslav government included 3/4 of the income of enterprises into the state treasury through tax and credit policies;

6. Yugoslavia pursues the policy of workers' autonomy and hands over enterprises to the collective management of workers. Workers can distribute profits and determine wages by themselves. This is an anarchist practice. In a real proletarian country, enterprises should all be managed by the state;

7. Yugoslavia has a huge gap between the rich and the poor, and some managers receive more dividends than the whole labor collective;

8. Yugoslavia imported a large number of goods from imperialist countries and became a dumping ground for goods from imperialist countries;

9. The fierce competition among enterprises in Yugoslavia has led to the bankruptcy of a large number of enterprises and the serious unemployment in society;

10. Yugoslavia has a lot of trade with imperialist countries, a large number of minerals produced in Yugoslavia are transported to the United States, and a large number of Yugoslav enterprises contract for western enterprises. Yugoslavia has been completely kidnapped by the world market;

Quote:
Out of our warm love for the great Soviet Union and the great CPSU, we would like sincerely to appeal to the leaders of the CPSU: Comrades and friends! Do not follow the Yugoslav road. Turn back at once. Or it will be too late!


Note: in October, 1961, the 22nd Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union officially announced the break between China and the Soviet Union.


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


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11 Jul 2022, 9:19 pm

4. Völker Europas, wahrt eure heiligsten Güter(Peoples of Europe, protect your most sacred possessions!)
Image

Quote:
Völker Europas, wahrt eure heiligsten Güter is a picture that the history painter Hermann Knackfuss made in 1895 based on a draft by Kaiser Wilhelm II as a gift from the German Kaiser to the Russian Tsar Nicholas II.

Archangel Michael (as the patron saint of the Germans) is depicted, surrounded by a number of valkyrie-like women who, as national allegories, symbolize the peoples of Europe (Germania, Britannia, etc.), pointing to a Buddha floating in dark thunderclouds over a European landscape from the east indicates.

With this allegorical painting, Wilhelm II wanted to call on European Christianity to fight together against the Yellow Peril and godless Buddhism.


"We need a strategy that protects the American economy, and indeed our way of life. The free world must triumph over this new tyranny."


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Cover your eyes, if you like. It will serve no purpose.

You might expect to be able to crush them in your hand, into wolf-bone fragments.
Dance with me, funeralxempire. Into night's circle we fly, until the fire enjoys us.


roronoa79
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12 Jul 2022, 8:43 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
4. Völker Europas, wahrt eure heiligsten Güter(Peoples of Europe, protect your most sacred possessions!)
Image
Quote:
Völker Europas, wahrt eure heiligsten Güter is a picture that the history painter Hermann Knackfuss made in 1895 based on a draft by Kaiser Wilhelm II as a gift from the German Kaiser to the Russian Tsar Nicholas II.

Archangel Michael (as the patron saint of the Germans) is depicted, surrounded by a number of valkyrie-like women who, as national allegories, symbolize the peoples of Europe (Germania, Britannia, etc.), pointing to a Buddha floating in dark thunderclouds over a European landscape from the east indicates.

With this allegorical painting, Wilhelm II wanted to call on European Christianity to fight together against the Yellow Peril and godless Buddhism.


"We need a strategy that protects the American economy, and indeed our way of life. The free world must triumph over this new tyranny."

If you are interested, here is a translation of the rest of the Wikipedia article, continuing from where yours left off:
Quote:
Kaiser Wilhelm II presented this portrait to the Russian Tsar with the request that he bring the influx from the East under control ("the menacing danger of a Chinese onslaught mobilized by Japan"). The Tsar was so pleased with the work, that the Kaiser could safely conclude: "It is gratifying that (the portrait) is so effective."

With regards to the female figures, they are, from right to left, the personifications of France (Marianne), Germany (Germania), Russia (Mother Russia), Austria-Hungary (Austria), Italy (Italia), and Great Britain (Britannia). The last figure on the left is unnamed.

Some years later, on July 27, 1900, Wilhelm gave his so-called "Hun Speech" (Hunnenrede). The occasion was the departure of the East Asian Expedition Corps (Ostasistisches Expeditionskorps) to the Boxer Rebellion, in which German and Christian missionaries were killed.

Western anti-Asian sentiment long predates communism or Japanese imperialism.


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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides