You can't be neurotypical and have mental health issues

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FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 8:35 am

While you can be neurologically developed, you can still develop mental health issues in late adolescence or adulthood. The issue is that you can't be neurotypical and have mental health issues at the same time, that is not how the brain works.

Even if you are neurologically developed, you can still regress later.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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11 Jul 2022, 8:45 am

FranzOren wrote:
The issue is that you can't be neurotypical and have mental health issues at the same time, that is not how the brain works.


That doesn't sound right to me, I want to see some documentation.
It sounds a lot like saying, "You can't have a normal immune system and get a cold at the same time".

My understanding of what is meant when using the term neurotypical parallels the following, which is that neurotypical is its own thing independent of having mental illness or not,

Quote:
The term neurotypical describes someone who thinks and processes information in an expected way for their culture and setting.

Some characteristics that people associate with neurotypical development include:

reaching developmental milestones at a similar time to other children, such as learning to speak
having social or organizational skills that are similar to someone’s peers
being able to tolerate some sensory discomfort, such as loud noises, without much difficulty
being able to adapt to changes in routines
being able to focus in class or at work for prolonged periods
having varied interests or hobbies typical for the person’s age

A neurotypical person does not necessarily have all of these traits or have them in all situations to identify as neurotypical.

For example, some people without autism may feel overwhelmed by certain sensory experiences, such as being in a crowd. Some children also have delays in learning speech or other skills that are not a result of any diagnosis.

The meaning “neurotypical” is also subjective, to an extent. What people consider typical can vary according to context.

Source: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... odivergent


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carlos55
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11 Jul 2022, 9:48 am

Mental illness and mental disability are two separate things

Person A : born NT then family are wiped out in a plane crash which causes depression and PTSD , then in this hypothetical universe they find it is all mistaken identity and their symptoms go away. The symptoms may be temporary disabling but they are NT and had mental illness.


Person B: born with autism that prevents them communicating (is non verbal) they also have associated learning disability and are unable to live alone. There is no cure or effective treatment.
They are not NT


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FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 10:08 am

That makes sense.

I asked, because I have Autism Spectrum Disorder, Mild Unspecified Intellectual Developmental Disorder, with neurotypical traits.



FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 10:20 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
FranzOren wrote:
The issue is that you can't be neurotypical and have mental health issues at the same time, that is not how the brain works.


That doesn't sound right to me, I want to see some documentation.
It sounds a lot like saying, "You can't have a normal immune system and get a cold at the same time".

My understanding of what is meant when using the term neurotypical parallels the following, which is that neurotypical is its own thing independent of having mental illness or not,

Quote:
The term neurotypical describes someone who thinks and processes information in an expected way for their culture and setting.

Some characteristics that people associate with neurotypical development include:

reaching developmental milestones at a similar time to other children, such as learning to speak
having social or organizational skills that are similar to someone’s peers
being able to tolerate some sensory discomfort, such as loud noises, without much difficulty
being able to adapt to changes in routines
being able to focus in class or at work for prolonged periods
having varied interests or hobbies typical for the person’s age

A neurotypical person does not necessarily have all of these traits or have them in all situations to identify as neurotypical.

For example, some people without autism may feel overwhelmed by certain sensory experiences, such as being in a crowd. Some children also have delays in learning speech or other skills that are not a result of any diagnosis.

The meaning “neurotypical” is also subjective, to an extent. What people consider typical can vary according to context.

Source: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... odivergent


So, you can be neurotypical, neurologically developed and develop mental health issues, but I was wondering if you were neurologically developed, but developed late adolescent or adulthood neurological disorders.



Mona Pereth
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11 Jul 2022, 10:44 am

This depends on how you define the word "neurotypical."

A source I take as a standard is NEURODIVERSITY: SOME BASIC TERMS & DEFINITIONS by Nick Walker.

"Neurotypical" or "NT" is the opposite of "neurodivergent." "Neurotypical" does NOT simply mean "non-autistic." (Another word, "allistic," is a better term for "non-autistic.")

The above-linked article says:

Quote:
Neurodivergent, sometimes abbreviated as ND, means having a mind that functions in ways which diverge significantly from the dominant societal standards of “normal.”

Neurodivergent is quite a broad term. Neurodivergence (the state of being neurodivergent) can be largely or entirely genetic and innate, or it can be largely or entirely produced by brain-altering experience, or some combination of the two. Autism and dyslexia are examples of innate forms of neurodivergence, while alterations in brain functioning caused by such things as trauma, long-term meditation practice, or heavy usage of psychedelic drugs are examples of forms of neurodivergence produced through experience.

A person whose neurocognitive functioning diverges from dominant societal norms in multiple ways – for instance, a person who is Autistic, dyslexic, and epileptic – can be described as multiply neurodivergent.

Some forms of innate or largely innate neurodivergence, like autism, are intrinsic and pervasive factors in an individual’s psyche, personality, and fundamental way of relating to the world. The neurodiversity paradigm rejects the pathologizing of such forms of neurodivergence, and the Neurodiversity Movement opposes attempts to get rid of them.

Other forms of neurodivergence, like epilepsy or the effects of traumatic brain injuries, could be removed from an individual without erasing fundamental aspects of the individual’s selfhood, and in many cases the individual would be happy to be rid of such forms of neurodivergence. The neurodiversity paradigm does not reject the pathologizing of these forms of neurodivergence, and the Neurodiversity Movement does not object to consensual attempts to cure them (but still most definitely objects to discrimination against people who have them).

Thus, neurodivergence is not intrinsically positive or negative, desirable or undesirable – it all depends on what sort of neurodivergence one is talking about.

The terms neurodivergent and neurodivergence were coined in the year 2000 by Kassiane Asasumasu, a multiply neurodivergent neurodiversity activist.

Regarding "neurotypical":

Quote:
Neurotypical is the opposite of neurodivergent. Neurotypicality is the way-of-being from which neurodivergent people diverge. Neurotypical bears the same sort of relationship to neurodivergent that straight bears to queer.

So, by the above definitions, Franz is correct: A person with major mental health issues is not NT.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 11 Jul 2022, 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 10:47 am

That makes sense.



FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 11:04 am

That is why I hate the word "Neurotypical", because if you were neurologically developed in the past and developed mental health issues, you cannot be neurotypical anymore, because by definition, it causes you some kind of distress, it may not be the same distress as in neurological or developmental disorders, but your mental health issues shouldn't be downplayed and invalided, just because you were neurologically developed in the past, and it's not right and fair.



FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 1:12 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
This depends on how you define the word "neurotypical."

A source I take as a standard is NEURODIVERSITY: SOME BASIC TERMS & DEFINITIONS by Nick Walker.

"Neurotypical" or "NT" is the opposite of "neurodivergent." "Neurotypical" does NOT simply mean "non-autistic." (Another word, "allistic," is a better term for "non-autistic.")

The above-linked article says:

Quote:
Neurodivergent, sometimes abbreviated as ND, means having a mind that functions in ways which diverge significantly from the dominant societal standards of “normal.”

Neurodivergent is quite a broad term. Neurodivergence (the state of being neurodivergent) can be largely or entirely genetic and innate, or it can be largely or entirely produced by brain-altering experience, or some combination of the two. Autism and dyslexia are examples of innate forms of neurodivergence, while alterations in brain functioning caused by such things as trauma, long-term meditation practice, or heavy usage of psychedelic drugs are examples of forms of neurodivergence produced through experience.

A person whose neurocognitive functioning diverges from dominant societal norms in multiple ways – for instance, a person who is Autistic, dyslexic, and epileptic – can be described as multiply neurodivergent.

Some forms of innate or largely innate neurodivergence, like autism, are intrinsic and pervasive factors in an individual’s psyche, personality, and fundamental way of relating to the world. The neurodiversity paradigm rejects the pathologizing of such forms of neurodivergence, and the Neurodiversity Movement opposes attempts to get rid of them.

Other forms of neurodivergence, like epilepsy or the effects of traumatic brain injuries, could be removed from an individual without erasing fundamental aspects of the individual’s selfhood, and in many cases the individual would be happy to be rid of such forms of neurodivergence. The neurodiversity paradigm does not reject the pathologizing of these forms of neurodivergence, and the Neurodiversity Movement does not object to consensual attempts to cure them (but still most definitely objects to discrimination against people who have them).

Thus, neurodivergence is not intrinsically positive or negative, desirable or undesirable – it all depends on what sort of neurodivergence one is talking about.

The terms neurodivergent and neurodivergence were coined in the year 2000 by Kassiane Asasumasu, a multiply neurodivergent neurodiversity activist.

Regarding "neurotypical":

Quote:
Neurotypical is the opposite of neurodivergent. Neurotypicality is the way-of-being from which neurodivergent people diverge. Neurotypical bears the same sort of relationship to neurodivergent that straight bears to queer.

So, by the above definitions, Franz is correct: A person with major mental health issues is not NT.



I agree! But what about people with milder forms of neurodevelopmental disorders, neurogenic disorders and mental health issues? Speaking of non-major brain disorders.



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11 Jul 2022, 3:10 pm

NT was just a name invented by scientists to separate those with Autism / severe ADHD and the rest of the population for scientific study. In other words a control group.

Although they don`t call it a control group, they call it NT.

It just means unaffected. The easiest way for science & just about anyone to study a condition is to identify differences in the control group to the study group.

That`s all NT ever was, until SJW tried to create an identity out of it in the same way they do about autism.

By the way i understand Nick Walker expressed a desire for those disabled by their autism to be jailed for a hate crime for wanting to be cured or treated to alleviate their often painful / disabling symptoms.

Nick Walker himself is quite a privileged autistic person, he teaches in a university probably considered a well paid comfortable job for many autistic people who struggle to get a job taking out the trash, let alone do many of the things he does.

So i don`t personally take much notice of anything he says.

https://www.britannica.com/science/control-group


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FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 4:01 pm

I am sorry that I asked. One thing I learned today is that you can be neurologically developed and develop mental health and neurogenic issues later on.

I think language 'Neurologically developed' is a better term to describe this phenomena.



carlos55
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11 Jul 2022, 5:06 pm

FranzOren wrote:
I am sorry that I asked. One thing I learned today is that you can be neurologically developed and develop mental health and neurogenic issues later on.

I think language 'Neurologically developed' is a better term to describe this phenomena.


You don’t have to apologize it’s called free speech and it’s a reasonable question.


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FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 5:08 pm

Thanks!



Redd_Kross
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11 Jul 2022, 5:37 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
So, by the above definitions, Franz is correct: A person with major mental health issues is not NT.

Show me where the OP specified "major" mental health issues?

That's my precise problem with the premise here - it's all encompassing. And plenty of NTs go through periods of depression and anxiety severe enough to be classified as mental illness.



FranzOren
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11 Jul 2022, 5:57 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
So, by the above definitions, Franz is correct: A person with major mental health issues is not NT.

Show me where the OP specified "major" mental health issues?

That's my precise problem with the premise here - it's all encompassing. And plenty of NTs go through periods of depression and anxiety severe enough to be classified as mental illness.



I didn't point that out but major mental health issues are:


* Schizotypal (Personality) Disorder or Schizotypal Disorder

* Delusional Disorder (With or without subtypes)

* Brief Psychotic Disorder

* Schizophremiform Disorder

* Schizophrenia

* Schizoeffective Disorder

* Bipolar 1 and 2 Disorders (With or without psychotic features)

* Dissociative Disorders (With or without psychotic features)

* PTSD (With or without psychotic features)

* Depressive Disorders (With or without psychotic features)

* Anxiety Disorders (with or without psychotic features)

* Organic mental disorders (With or without psychotic features)

* Neurodevelopmental, neurogenic or both of those neurological disorders that causes Delusional Misidentification Syndromes

* Distruptive, Impulse Control and Conduct Disorders, and Personality Disorders with psychotic features

* Paraphilias with psychotic features



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11 Jul 2022, 7:06 pm

I haven't got the time to work through the whole list, but certainly with anxiety and depression many people experience these to an extent / duration that's disruptive, but it doesn't keep happening or get severe enough that they're considered to be atypical i.e. non-NT.

It could be argued that such signs of distress are inevitable in a world that's so complex, competitive, and contradictory. It seems to be regarded as a necessary price to pay - collateral damage for capitalism.