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Jakki
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21 Jul 2022, 2:06 am

cyberdad wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Roe, Obergefell, Lawrence, et al, need to be either their own amendments, or part of a second Bill of Rights.

If any of their codifications fail by legislation, they need to be decided by national referendum.


It's strange that overturning Roe Vs Wade wasn't put to a ballot?


Yes .. would think that something that big , with that much history. Did not get a larger National vote .
But have read the two deciding judges were installed recently by Trump .????


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Cornflake
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21 Jul 2022, 4:34 am

 ! Cornflake wrote:
I dunno, maybe it's the weather or something... :wink:

For anyone struggling with the concept, "Republican" here can also be taken to mean "Conservative", "Methodist", "Christian", "Liberal" ... and so on.

The point is to not attack or denigrate the person.


Posts attacking or making denigrating comments on Republicans have been removed, along with their quotes and related commentary.

Although this isn't PPR some of the guidelines for that forum apply generally to WP and specifically, in this case:
Quote:
It is acceptable to say that Republicanism, Liberalism, Christianity, Islam are stupid but not acceptable to make generalised attacks saying that Republicans, Liberals, Christians or Muslims are morons. You could say that some of these people are stupid because of (reason) but not make generalised attacks on groups of people.
viewtopic.php?t=204613#p4793268

This is also covered more broadly by the general site rules:
Quote:
2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.
viewtopic.php?t=263570#p6166902

There are several Republican/Conservative members of WP and these types of generalised attacks attack them too.

So please, let's have no more of it and return to the topic.


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cyberdad
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21 Jul 2022, 4:39 am

So....are we still permitted to comment on politicians, their supporters and their comments?



SpiralingCrow
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21 Jul 2022, 4:49 am

Jakki wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Roe, Obergefell, Lawrence, et al, need to be either their own amendments, or part of a second Bill of Rights.

If any of their codifications fail by legislation, they need to be decided by national referendum.


It's strange that overturning Roe Vs Wade wasn't put to a ballot?


Yes .. would think that something that big , with that much history. Did not get a larger National vote .
But have read the two deciding judges were installed recently by Trump .????



Those who are "pro birth" don't want a national vote on abortion as they probably would not win in a national vote.

Trump had 3 Supreme Court picks during his term.



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21 Jul 2022, 5:04 am

cyberdad wrote:
So....are we still permitted to comment on politicians, their supporters and their comments?

Is there something about this that's difficult to grasp? :scratch:
Quote:
It is acceptable to say that Republicanism, Liberalism, Christianity, Islam are stupid but not acceptable to make generalised attacks saying that Republicans, Liberals, Christians or Muslims are morons. You could say that some of these people are stupid because of (reason) but not make generalised attacks on groups of people.

It's a question of being more careful with the criticisms and responses; careful that they don't criticise or attack WP members who support or believe in (subject).

Republicanism = stupid - Ok.
Republicans = stupid - not Ok.


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KitLily
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21 Jul 2022, 5:26 am

cyberdad wrote:
At the end of the day, reversing minority rights doesn't impact the majority of the population, Even abortion rights impacts only one in four women in the United States (23.7%) will have an abortion by the age 45

Only 7% of people in the US identify as LGBTQI so likewise conservatives don't care about their vote


That's the problem with humans today: there are so many of us that the majority won't be affected by most things, so they don't care. When humanity was only a small population, everything affected everyone so they had to care.


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21 Jul 2022, 5:29 am

People need to pay attention. Once governments start picking on minorities, it opens the door to picking on another group they don't like. Then another, then another. This the most relevant quotation:

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
(Martin Niemöller)

You can substitute any group you like for those. Refugees, disabled people, LGBT people, the elderly etc...


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cyberdad
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21 Jul 2022, 5:44 am

Cornflake wrote:
Republicanism = stupid - Ok.
Republicans = stupid - not Ok.


What about republicans saying/doing stupid things?



cyberdad
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21 Jul 2022, 5:49 am

KitLily wrote:
People need to pay attention. Once governments start picking on minorities, it opens the door to picking on another group they don't like. Then another, then another. This the most relevant quotation:

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
(Martin Niemöller)

You can substitute any group you like for those. Refugees, disabled people, LGBT people, the elderly etc...


People in Italy have not been speaking out these things. And now a fascist party is likely to be elected to power in a coalition
https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/it ... bf2ec69e75

This is why it is important to speak out when members of the republican party and their numerous supporters tries to normalise far right speech. It's a slippery slope.

When you normalise hyperfocusing on minority or vulnerable groups (at the moment women who need an abortion or LGBTQI people) then the population become apathetic over civil rights.



KitLily
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21 Jul 2022, 5:53 am

cyberdad wrote:
People in Italy have not been speaking out these things. And now a fascist party is likely to be elected to power in a coalition
https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/it ... bf2ec69e75

This is why it is important to speak out when republican party tries to normalise far right speech. It's a slippery slope.


Yes. My Italian friend says Italy is really bad right now, so he's moved to Britain. He now says he's not sure which country is worse! :lol:

And the same for Britain. Our right wing party is normalising right wing speech. People here think right wingers are being suppressed and silenced, so they have set up right wing TV channels and newspapers. Well, MORE newspapers. Right wingers already have about 6 newspapers.

But the majority of Brits do not care. They are happy with Brexit and the government. They have dreams of the great and glorious British Empire etc. They don't like lefty liberal snowflakes.

What has happened to my country.


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cyberdad
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21 Jul 2022, 6:02 am

KitLily wrote:
People here think right wingers are being suppressed and silenced, so they have set up right wing TV channels and newspapers. Well, MORE newspapers. Right wingers already have about 6 newspapers..


Yes this has been a gateway for these groups to popularise their conspiracies. A lot of people who fell for all the lies about Hilary Clinton, Obama and about stolen election in 2020 are not traditional republicans. It's quite an insidious use of the mass media to spread dangerous crack pot ideas to people who would normally not listen to this stuff.

It was no accident that Trump's successful electoral strategies in 2016 were written by Steve Bannon who can be compared to Josef Goebbals in terms of his use of slogans to help trump win the 2016 election. He cut his teeth as editor of the far right newspaper Breitbart.



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21 Jul 2022, 6:17 am

cyberdad wrote:
Yes this has been a gateway for these groups to popularise their conspiracies. A lot of people who fell for all the lies about Hilary Clinton, Obama and about stolen election in 2020 are not traditional republicans. It's quite an insidious use of the mass media to spread dangerous crack pot ideas to people who would normally not listen to this stuff.

It was no accident that Trump's successful electoral strategies in 2016 were written by Steve Bannon who can be compared to Josef Goebbals in terms of his use of slogans to help trump win the 2016 election. He cut his teeth as editor of the far right newspaper Breitbart.


It's so scary isn't it. Same in Britain as regards the dangerous crackpot ideas being spread by the mass media (mostly owned by foreign billionaires)

And of course there is the Russian influence. What they are saying sounds exactly like what the bots and trolls online are saying i.e. conspiracy theories.

It feels like it's all coming to a head doesn't it.


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21 Jul 2022, 9:12 am

cyberdad wrote:
KitLily wrote:
People here think right wingers are being suppressed and silenced, so they have set up right wing TV channels and newspapers. Well, MORE newspapers. Right wingers already have about 6 newspapers..


Yes this has been a gateway for these groups to popularise their conspiracies. A lot of people who fell for all the lies about Hilary Clinton, Obama and about stolen election in 2020 are not traditional republicans. It's quite an insidious use of the mass media to spread dangerous crack pot ideas to people who would normally not listen to this stuff.

It was no accident that Trump's successful electoral strategies in 2016 were written by Steve Bannon who can be compared to Josef Goebbals in terms of his use of slogans to help trump win the 2016 election. He cut his teeth as editor of the far right newspaper Breitbart.



I believe the rise of the right wing really started with social media. This was the gateway. Once news media like Fox news realized it was a ratings monster, it really became mainstream as opposed to fringe movement.



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21 Jul 2022, 9:52 am

SpiralingCrow wrote:
I believe the rise of the right wing really started with social media. This was the gateway. Once news media like Fox news realized it was a ratings monster, it really became mainstream as opposed to fringe movement.


You hit the nail on the head. Ideas can be spread within seconds around the world now and it's not good. It used to be 'that crazy old man who lives up the road, let's ignore him.' But now all the crazy people round the world can get together and spread their nonsense.


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21 Jul 2022, 2:34 pm

SpiralingCrow wrote:
Jakki wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Roe, Obergefell, Lawrence, et al, need to be either their own amendments, or part of a second Bill of Rights.

If any of their codifications fail by legislation, they need to be decided by national referendum.


It's strange that overturning Roe Vs Wade wasn't put to a ballot?


Yes .. would think that something that big , with that much history. Did not get a larger National vote .
But have read the two deciding judges were installed recently by Trump .????



Those who are "pro birth" don't want a national vote on abortion as they probably would not win in a national vote.

Trump had 3 Supreme Court picks during his term.


Some issues cannot be settled by a vote. You could not, for example, vote to subjugate all people who shared a certain trait.

However, what was really decided in the recent SCOTUS case was simply whether or not the federal constitution overruled state laws on the matter, ie to decide that a constitutional issue (such as right to privacy) was actually involved, or if states could decide for themselves. Rightly or wrongly, which is a matter of opinion, SCOTUS ruled that the constitution does not prevent the states from making laws to restrict abortion.

Changing the constitution to protect the right to abortion regardless of individual state desires cannot be done with a simple vote.


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21 Jul 2022, 4:26 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Changing the constitution to protect the right to abortion regardless of individual state desires cannot be done with a simple vote.


The debate about when life starts should be left to scientists and ethicists. Not to religious fundamentalists and their supporters on the supreme court.