How important is it for the human race to continue?

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Fireblossom
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17 Aug 2022, 9:33 am

Misslizard wrote:
/\I know, I live in the woods and see the life and death drama around me everyday.
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


I'm pretty sure there are predators that hunt just for the sake of hunting even if we exclude humans. Doesn't that count as killing for no good reason?



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17 Aug 2022, 9:38 am

Fireblossom wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I know, I live in the woods and see the life and death drama around me everyday.
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


I'm pretty sure there are predators that hunt just for the sake of hunting even if we exclude humans. Doesn't that count as killing for no good reason?


I had a cat who would kill other animals for fun and not eat them.

I think the biggest difference between us and other animals is that we are more intelligent, generally speaking. :lol:


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17 Aug 2022, 10:00 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I know, I live in the woods and see the life and death drama around me everyday.
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


I'm pretty sure there are predators that hunt just for the sake of hunting even if we exclude humans. Doesn't that count as killing for no good reason?


I had a cat who would kill other animals for fun and not eat them.

I think the biggest difference between us and other animals is that we are more intelligent, generally speaking. :lol:


I think that's more of a matter of instinct than pleasure.


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Twilightprincess
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17 Aug 2022, 10:43 am

VegetableMan wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I know, I live in the woods and see the life and death drama around me everyday.
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


I'm pretty sure there are predators that hunt just for the sake of hunting even if we exclude humans. Doesn't that count as killing for no good reason?


I had a cat who would kill other animals for fun and not eat them.

I think the biggest difference between us and other animals is that we are more intelligent, generally speaking. :lol:


I think that's more of a matter of instinct than pleasure.


Animals enjoy chasing stuff. My dog begs for me to do the laser light with her. She's too incompetent to catch anything, but she would probably enjoy killing stuff, too. I think it's about both pleasure and instinct. Maybe there's a bit of both for people as well.

Chimps engage in tribal battles, so humans really aren't that different from other animals. We're just more intelligent.


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17 Aug 2022, 10:49 am



Yawn, Modern Science Has Long Since Refuted The Myth
That Other Social Animal Mammals Don't Experience Emotions

And Don't Experience Empathy DOING ALTRUISM; And Cannot Discern Beauty

As My God Even A Frigging Butterfly is Studied to Discern Imperfections in
Symmetry Of A Prospective Mate in Differences of Symmetry of 1 in A Million.

And True, While Humans Aren't The Best At It, Sharks Are Studied As Having A Best
Ability to Detect Electromagnetic Fields Of Other Creatures in the Sea Under the Sand
of the Ocean Floor, For A Bit to Eat of Course With Really Big Jaws And Teeth That May
Replace And Regrow in Numbers of 30,000 or So Teeth in One Lifetime, Along With the
Ability for Some Species to YES Actually Reproduce Asexually For 'REAL VIRGIN BIRTHS.'

Some 'Worms' Are Studied to Regrow Heads And Yes So-Called Rudimentary Brains that
Still Retain Memories of Previous Heads Lost and Rudimentary Brains too; Oh Yeah and

Scientists May Remove the Genetic Material for Flies to Develop Eyes, And Somehow Beyond
The RUDIMENTARY CURRENT UNDERSTANDING OF SCIENCE, in Several Generations, the Flies

Grow Eyes Again.

Yawn, Other Social Mammal Animals Bond and Bind For Least Harm to Others
At Birth and After With the Same Neurohormone Oxytocin That Humans Benefit
From this way; Yet Not all Humans, AS Humans Studied Just Like Monkeys Who

Are Neglected And Or Abused in Childhood May Not Develop This Wiring For
Warm Comfort And May Even Wither Away And Die Without the Love of A Mother This way.

Okay, So Let's Move to Chimpanzees And So-Called Alpha Males, Where That Term Has Been
Misappropriated By Human Beings to Suggest Powerful And Dominating Without Empathy/Altruism;

Nothing Could Be Further from the Truth as the Actual So-called Father of the Term 'Alpha Male'
in Regard to Studying Chimps, Frans de Waal, Shows The So-called Alpha Males Most Often Chosen
to Lead the Chimps Have the Highest Abilities for Both Empathy And Compassion for even the Least
Among the Chimps In Giving, Sharing, Caring, and Healing Ways to Gain the Respect Yes of the Other

Chimps, Even If the So-Called Alpha Male is Not the Biggest And The Strongest of Them All; Yes This
Ability to Cooperate,
And Gain the Trust
and Respect of the
Other Chimps is His
Highest Perceived Virtue in Life Achievement
As Leader With Typically the Highest Levels
of Cortisol Like Empathic Parents Naturally Have With Lots of Children too...

(And of Course Among Bonobos Who Live by A Rule of Peace For Love are
Ruled in Matriarchal Ways of Cooperation With the Females in Charge too)

Yes, While Other Animals Don't Have the Complex Tools and Language We
Use in our So-Called Advanced Cultures That Currently Consume the Rest of
Nature Out of Balance in Taking More Than Giving, Hoarding More Than Sharing,
Harming More than Caring And Healing, Typically Among Humans Who Have Grown

Cold in Mechanical Cognition Associated With Tools and Other Clothes of Culture That
Separate Us Not Only From Our Nature Yet the Rest of Nature Naked, Enough, Whole, Complete;

Yep, All the Challenges and Struggles
From 'DarK of Life to Light' That Entails
For All Sentient Life On Earth and What
Some Folks Call So-Called Lower Forms of
Life like Worms That Are Able to Regenerate
Heads and Brains With the Memories of Learning
That Were Associated With Lost Heads and Brains;

Humans Just Aren't All that Special; Sure We Are Special
In Some Ways, Yet i've Only Touched A Piece of Dust of the
Higher Levels of Intelligence Other Animals Possess that Standard

IQ Doesn't even Touch in Human Ways of Higher Potentials to Keep Existing as Life;

Yawn, Sharks Have
Been Around Longer
Than Trees At around
450 MiLLioN Years; Perhaps

We Should Explore Bigger Jaws,
More Teeth, Asexual Reproduction,
And The Ability to Uncover Prey With

Electromagnetic Field Probing Ways of Life.

Of Course, From This Human to That Human,

Human Potentials Either Realized or Never Realized

Are the Real Red Meat of Existence; And Also The Emotional
Intelligence, Empathy, Altruism, And Compassion That Other Animals Experience

That IS A Source of Our So-called Morality That Is Most Definitely A Construct
We Create With Both Language And Vastly Different Cultural Ideologies For Symbols
And Yes Ideologies Always Changing, Depending on What Humans Co-Create Next
With Our Vast iMaGiNaTioNS And Feelings And Senses that Make Up the Synergy of All

Our Emotions
That Science
Shows Precedes
Most Every Rational
Reason We Come Up
With For 'Be Cause;'

Yawn, In Other Words, An 'Idea,' A Contruct
That Without Humans All there Would

Be Is Changing Atomic Particles And
No Morality or Beauty Left On Earth;

Is Most Definitely a Sign of EgoCentricHumanity

At Work So Far Away From Humanity That Sees and
Feels and Senses the Rest of Nature Much Deeper than
Language Alone, And Other Human Mostly Left Brain Hemisphere
Reduced Constructs That Sees No Humanity Without The Tools We Create

Both in Words
Written and
Atomic
Bombs
And Such;

It's True, There is the Above,
And the Below, the Within, the
Inside And Outside and All Around too;

THere are the Parts And THere is the Whole;

At Best We Pay Enough Focus to Capture Prey,

And Have A Big Enough Picture of the Rest of Nature
Not to Be Eaten By The Predator on the Horizon We No Longer

See Stuck
in A View
of A 6 Inch
Screen, a Desk-Top,

Or an HDTV With Perhaps
A Screen As Big As 86 Inches
for 1500 Dollars or So on the Cheap;

No Thanks, I'll Take my Five Foot High
By Eight Foot Wide Picture Window And A View
to Paradise in A Real "Forrest Gump" Garden of Eden
Always Changing Vibrant in Colors Alive As Once Again i am No More Integral
To Existence Than A Grain of Sand Holding Up A Mountain of Human Love or

A Feather Just
Floating With
The Wind Where
Every Destination
Is Full of Meaning and
Purpose as i Truly Keep Fulfilling
my Human Potentials in iMaGiNaTioN
And Co-Creativity; And Feel and Sense
Every Part of LiFE DarK Thru LiGHT, Challenge
And Success, A Miracle and Gift of LiFE to Inhale
Every Breath of Peace And Exhale of Love Fearlessly
As Such Retaining my God Damned Human Potential

To be Strong As A Frigging Orangutan at Age 62 at Least
By Empirical Measure of Still Leg Pressing Up to 1520 Pounds;

(OBTW, Science Shows Humans DO STILL HAVE THIS POTENTIAL;
12,000 Years Since Sedentary Human And Other Animal Domestication;
Even 40,000 Years is a Relative Drop in the Bucket Per Classic Evolution;

Indeed, We Still Have Epigenetic Potential to Recover So Many Potentials
Lost to the Tools and Clothes of Culture We Do Wear Covering that Up)

Of Course, Before i Started Dancing Everywhere i Go; i Was Stuck at only
500 Pounds From ages 21 to 53; So Much Potential Realized in Some Cases;

So Little
Used in
Other Cases,
For Those Who
Believed That they
Are Only Materially
Reduced Parts of Nature;

Obviously, There Are No Sharks That Believe that BS
At the Hands And Lies of Scientism, No Different than
The Kind of Religion That Kicks Out Truth With 'Ladies

Called Cheney'
And Promotes
Real "Father's oF ALL
Lies" and Calls that So-Called F iN Morality At Church And City Hall.

Indeed, i'll take the 'Morality of A Chimp Leader' Over that 'Bull Stuff'...
Of Course That's Just A Metaphor, Bulls Are Lovely Creatures Yes too...

And Humans Do Have The Potential to Be 'Real Demons and Angels' too;

It's True, i Fall Among the Most and Rise Among the Least; Yet It's True i Don't
Fall Nearly As Much

Now

Hehe
As i Got
my 'Orangutan'
And 'Angel Wings'
Secure in Balance
From Smaller to Bigger Picture Views...

And On the Other Hand, Considering Science
Shows the Average Human Potential For Attention
Spans is Now Less than 3 Seconds; Yes, Less than A Gold Fish

i Don't Expect Average Human Beings to Be able to Read this;

Yet It's Worth Noting, i Didn't Speak Until i Was 4, i Finally Caught

Up and Surpassed Most of my Peers Who Did Much More than me before
As An Assessed Weakest Fish in the Aquarium then, Scoring an 11 on the
AQ Scan for Autism in Regard to Weakness in Social Empathic Measures of Intelligence,

As Before the age of 53
Catching Up With that i
Scored a 45 And the Mid 50's
in EQ Tests for Emotional Intelligence
Versus the Mid 90's And Above After Age 53 too...

Sadly, Most Humans Are Consuming More of The Earth;
Wearing Fancier Tools and Clothes; Yet When it Comes to

Evolving or Devolving in One Lifetime in Regard to Cognitive
Executive Functioning in Terms of Short Term Working Memory,
Long Term Memory Retrieval; Yes, Focus and Attention Spans And Social-Emotional
Intelligence That Always Defined Our Human Virtues Most Before We Started Wearing

Clothes;

Indeed, We
Have More External
Stuff Yet Are Mostly
Lost When it Comes to
Naked, Enough, Whole, Complete;

Is there Any Turning Back; Just ask

Instant Gratification and Human Discipline

to Embrace Struggle That Brings True Success...

Typically Monkeys Still Press Levers For Cocaine and Sugar Until they Get Sick...

Guess, What, We Aren't That Much Different From Monkeys or Even Rodents We
Share A Common

Ancestor with
75 MiLLioN Years ago...

Master Our Naked Ape or Fall to Clothes...

Anyway, A Real Garden of Eden Exists FOR REAL
Always Changing in Colors, Fur, And Feathers
Outside my Back Door; i Shall Attend to that
As A Naked And Somewhat Furry Ape Next; God Damned Straight,

"Proud to Be JusT ANoTHeR HAiry Ape WHerE At Least i FeeL And

Sense i'm Free;"

True, 'The Locals' Have Part of
(To Be Clear, in Trump Towns USA)
This Figured Out, If only Now They
Will Find Their Wings And Rise Out of 'THE MucK'...



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Misslizard
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17 Aug 2022, 11:24 am

shlaifu wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


What do you mean, no good reason? You said hate and malice!

Joke aside, chimp-tribes go to war, baboons are awfully to each other within rhe tribe in status competition, the large majority of orangutan sex is non-consensual, and have you seen the genitalia of ducks, btw?
A lot of species practice competitive infanticide.
Cats are absolute monsters.

Hate and malice appear to me somewhere in the middle, - at least it's not murder of children so you can then rape their mother and she'll have your children and only your children.

But then, that's moralizing.

Hate and malice isn’t a good reason to kill.
I had ducks, ewwwwww.
I had a Tom cat that ate the kittens.
He didn’t do it out of hate, but so the female will come back in heat and have his kittens.
It’s not hate or malice.They also don’t plan out a mass murder.


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17 Aug 2022, 11:26 am

Fireblossom wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I know, I live in the woods and see the life and death drama around me everyday.
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


I'm pretty sure there are predators that hunt just for the sake of hunting even if we exclude humans. Doesn't that count as killing for no good reason?

They general eat what they kill or cache for later.They don’t do drive by shootings.


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17 Aug 2022, 11:28 am

Misslizard wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I know, I live in the woods and see the life and death drama around me everyday.
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


I'm pretty sure there are predators that hunt just for the sake of hunting even if we exclude humans. Doesn't that count as killing for no good reason?

They don’t do drive by shootings.

That's probably because they don't know how to drive cars.


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17 Aug 2022, 11:30 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I know, I live in the woods and see the life and death drama around me everyday.
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


I'm pretty sure there are predators that hunt just for the sake of hunting even if we exclude humans. Doesn't that count as killing for no good reason?


I had a cat who would kill other animals for fun and not eat them.

I think the biggest difference between us and other animals is that we are more intelligent, generally speaking. :lol:

Some animals have an extreme prey drive and the sight of something running triggers it.I have some dogs that will chase anything, not because they are mean.They are hunting dogs and that is their nature.


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17 Aug 2022, 11:33 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\I know, I live in the woods and see the life and death drama around me everyday.
Only humans kill out of hate and malice.Other creatures do it to survive, protect their young, for food.We do it for no good reason.


I'm pretty sure there are predators that hunt just for the sake of hunting even if we exclude humans. Doesn't that count as killing for no good reason?

They don’t do drive by shootings.

That's probably because they don't know how to drive cars.

That would also have trouble pulling the trigger.
Animals kill out of instinct and to survive.Humans do it because they want to.


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17 Aug 2022, 11:34 am

Humans are animals, too, and no, not everything that other animals do is a pure act of instinct.


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17 Aug 2022, 11:42 am

/\Mostly,except when we train them.
I have five dogs, six geese , three hens an iguana and a ball python.Had cows, goats, turkeys, ducks, mammoth burro, horse, cats and assorted other animals.
Their behavior was pretty predictable.
You can’t predict what a human will do.


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shlaifu
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17 Aug 2022, 3:45 pm

Misslizard wrote:
/\Mostly,except when we train them.
I have five dogs, six geese , three hens an iguana and a ball python.Had cows, goats, turkeys, ducks, mammoth burro, horse, cats and assorted other animals.
Their behavior was pretty predictable.
You can’t predict what a human will do.


I think I'm trying to make the point that suffering among animals will not just go away if humans go extinct, and as far as I'm concerned, the intent doesn't matter that much. If an animal kills a human animal, we put it down, even though it was merely acting out its drives.
I for one don't believe in free will - there's nature and nurture that governs brain structures, for all animals. Did you know there's a kind of brain tumor that makes people into mass murderers, with no warning or anything? And I mean regular, well adapted citizens.
Others are driven to this kind of behaviour by abuse, ostracism, poverty.
Genocides happen because of territorial and status conflicts that turn into narratives well beyond the actual conflict ... It's not 'without any reason', it's just that part of human success is to have fictional reasons for behaviour, like narratives, or money, etc.
But among all those, competitive infanticide is not allowed - while it is for cats.


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DanielW
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17 Aug 2022, 3:48 pm

That would depend on who you ask, and how you define important. Most people are trying to save the planet, but the planet can take care of itself.



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17 Aug 2022, 3:57 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
/\Mostly,except when we train them.
I have five dogs, six geese , three hens an iguana and a ball python.Had cows, goats, turkeys, ducks, mammoth burro, horse, cats and assorted other animals.
Their behavior was pretty predictable.
You can’t predict what a human will do.


I think I'm trying to make the point that suffering among animals will not just go away if humans go extinct, and as far as I'm concerned, the intent doesn't matter that much. If an animal kills a human animal, we put it down, even though it was merely acting out its drives.
I for one don't believe in free will - there's nature and nurture that governs brain structures, for all animals. Did you know there's a kind of brain tumor that makes people into mass murderers, with no warning or anything? And I mean regular, well adapted citizens.
Others are driven to this kind of behaviour by abuse, ostracism, poverty.
Genocides happen because of territorial and status conflicts that turn into narratives well beyond the actual conflict ... It's not 'without any reason', it's just that part of human success is to have fictional reasons for behaviour, like narratives, or money, etc.
But among all those, competitive infanticide is not allowed - while it is for cats.

I’m aware of the brain tumor in the Texas shooter.
Most humans have free will, they have a choice.They are also aware that their choice can cause great suffering.And still choose to inflict pain and damage.
There has always been suffering, always will be.
There would be less If we were not here.


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17 Aug 2022, 6:24 pm

Overall, I believe most people are all right.