Rand Paul Wants Espionage Act to Be Repealed

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Matrix Glitch
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18 Aug 2022, 1:46 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
I don't honestly believe Trump will take the fall under the Espionage Act, not based on what we know so far, anyway. It's just too sticky. If he gets prosecuted it will be taxes and/or Obstruction of Justice. IMHO

As amusing as I find it to see Trump falling into traps he wanted set for others, I don't actually think it is unreasonable for someone working practically 24/7 in a high pressure job at the top of our government to hoard a little and drop a few dots on their i's. I honestly can't imagine trying to follow the strict protocols required in government; I'd go bonkers. Trump's attempt to manifest all these rules into nothingness by pretending the stuff was "his" I can't relate to, but do find amusing.

I doubt that’s going to happen considering they knew he had documents since at least February, and probably way before then. If it was really an espionage issue, like if the White House cook had secret documents, they would have raided Trump's home a long time ago. There was an obvious lack of emergency regarding this that went on for months, probably since he left the WH.



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18 Aug 2022, 2:31 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I don't honestly believe Trump will take the fall under the Espionage Act, not based on what we know so far, anyway. It's just too sticky. If he gets prosecuted it will be taxes and/or Obstruction of Justice. IMHO

As amusing as I find it to see Trump falling into traps he wanted set for others, I don't actually think it is unreasonable for someone working practically 24/7 in a high pressure job at the top of our government to hoard a little and drop a few dots on their i's. I honestly can't imagine trying to follow the strict protocols required in government; I'd go bonkers. Trump's attempt to manifest all these rules into nothingness by pretending the stuff was "his" I can't relate to, but do find amusing.

I doubt that’s going to happen considering they knew he had documents since at least February, and probably way before then. If it was really an espionage issue, like if the White House cook had secret documents, they would have raided Trump's home a long time ago. There was an obvious lack of emergency regarding this that went on for months, probably since he left the WH.


The documents had been requested, but Trump only returned a few.
Why is it amusing Trump would do such a thing? This is a man who had run a phony college to bilk students, he had probably looted his charities, and he had screwed over his employees, his contractors, his business partners, his lawyers, his lenders, and his wives. Trump owes money to scary people like Russian oligarchs, and it's perfectly reasonable that trading America's secrets to them would get them off his back.


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18 Aug 2022, 3:50 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I don't honestly believe Trump will take the fall under the Espionage Act, not based on what we know so far, anyway. It's just too sticky. If he gets prosecuted it will be taxes and/or Obstruction of Justice. IMHO

As amusing as I find it to see Trump falling into traps he wanted set for others, I don't actually think it is unreasonable for someone working practically 24/7 in a high pressure job at the top of our government to hoard a little and drop a few dots on their i's. I honestly can't imagine trying to follow the strict protocols required in government; I'd go bonkers. Trump's attempt to manifest all these rules into nothingness by pretending the stuff was "his" I can't relate to, but do find amusing.

I doubt that’s going to happen considering they knew he had documents since at least February, and probably way before then. If it was really an espionage issue, like if the White House cook had secret documents, they would have raided Trump's home a long time ago. There was an obvious lack of emergency regarding this that went on for months, probably since he left the WH.


The documents had been requested, but Trump only returned a few.
Why is it amusing Trump would do such a thing? This is a man who had run a phony college to bilk students, he had probably looted his charities, and he had screwed over his employees, his contractors, his business partners, his lawyers, his lenders, and his wives. Trump owes money to scary people like Russian oligarchs, and it's perfectly reasonable that trading America's secrets to them would get them off his back.

Right they were requested. Do you think if it was actual espionage, they would have just requested? Of course not. They would have raided immediately. Go ahead, steal some classified documents from the White House, and see if they request that you to give them back for months on end. Obviously it wasn't a big deal for a very long time. Than all of a sudden it becomes a major national security emergency. Trump goes from just being delinquent for months on end, to all of a sudden becoming a saboteur selling nuclear codes. It's just such an unmitigated load of nonsense.



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18 Aug 2022, 7:19 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I don't honestly believe Trump will take the fall under the Espionage Act, not based on what we know so far, anyway. It's just too sticky. If he gets prosecuted it will be taxes and/or Obstruction of Justice. IMHO

As amusing as I find it to see Trump falling into traps he wanted set for others, I don't actually think it is unreasonable for someone working practically 24/7 in a high pressure job at the top of our government to hoard a little and drop a few dots on their i's. I honestly can't imagine trying to follow the strict protocols required in government; I'd go bonkers. Trump's attempt to manifest all these rules into nothingness by pretending the stuff was "his" I can't relate to, but do find amusing.

I doubt that’s going to happen considering they knew he had documents since at least February, and probably way before then. If it was really an espionage issue, like if the White House cook had secret documents, they would have raided Trump's home a long time ago. There was an obvious lack of emergency regarding this that went on for months, probably since he left the WH.


The documents had been requested, but Trump only returned a few.
Why is it amusing Trump would do such a thing? This is a man who had run a phony college to bilk students, he had probably looted his charities, and he had screwed over his employees, his contractors, his business partners, his lawyers, his lenders, and his wives. Trump owes money to scary people like Russian oligarchs, and it's perfectly reasonable that trading America's secrets to them would get them off his back.

Right they were requested. Do you think if it was actual espionage, they would have just requested? Of course not. They would have raided immediately. Go ahead, steal some classified documents from the White House, and see if they request that you to give them back for months on end. Obviously it wasn't a big deal for a very long time. Than all of a sudden it becomes a major national security emergency. Trump goes from just being delinquent for months on end, to all of a sudden becoming a saboteur selling nuclear codes. It's just such an unmitigated load of nonsense.


The documents were requested because Trump is a former President. Had it been anyone else, there would have been an immediate raid.


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18 Aug 2022, 9:26 pm

I'm under the impression there wasn't just a request for the documents last spring, but an actual subpoena. Failing to comply with the subpoena led to the addition of the obstruction of justice change on the eventual search warrant.


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18 Aug 2022, 9:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I don't honestly believe Trump will take the fall under the Espionage Act, not based on what we know so far, anyway. It's just too sticky. If he gets prosecuted it will be taxes and/or Obstruction of Justice. IMHO

As amusing as I find it to see Trump falling into traps he wanted set for others, I don't actually think it is unreasonable for someone working practically 24/7 in a high pressure job at the top of our government to hoard a little and drop a few dots on their i's. I honestly can't imagine trying to follow the strict protocols required in government; I'd go bonkers. Trump's attempt to manifest all these rules into nothingness by pretending the stuff was "his" I can't relate to, but do find amusing.

I doubt that’s going to happen considering they knew he had documents since at least February, and probably way before then. If it was really an espionage issue, like if the White House cook had secret documents, they would have raided Trump's home a long time ago. There was an obvious lack of emergency regarding this that went on for months, probably since he left the WH.


The documents had been requested, but Trump only returned a few.
Why is it amusing Trump would do such a thing? This is a man who had run a phony college to bilk students, he had probably looted his charities, and he had screwed over his employees, his contractors, his business partners, his lawyers, his lenders, and his wives. Trump owes money to scary people like Russian oligarchs, and it's perfectly reasonable that trading America's secrets to them would get them off his back.

Right they were requested. Do you think if it was actual espionage, they would have just requested? Of course not. They would have raided immediately. Go ahead, steal some classified documents from the White House, and see if they request that you to give them back for months on end. Obviously it wasn't a big deal for a very long time. Than all of a sudden it becomes a major national security emergency. Trump goes from just being delinquent for months on end, to all of a sudden becoming a saboteur selling nuclear codes. It's just such an unmitigated load of nonsense.


The documents were requested because Trump is a former President. Had it been anyone else, there would have been an immediate raid.

That's what I said. Him having those documents wasn't that big of a deal for a long time, until all of sudden it became an emergency. The Jan 6 committee only has about 80 days left before the midterms. Liz Cheney is already out with no next term to continue. They're in panic mode.



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18 Aug 2022, 9:51 pm

^^^
No, it's because he had been a President which is the reason why it was handled with kid gloves, and not because the documents weren't of importance. And yes, with the upcoming mid terms, there is a need to speed up the process of getting the matter resolved. But it certainly isn't a matter of Trump being an innocent wrongly persecuted by godless liberal idol worshippers!


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18 Aug 2022, 9:59 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
No, it's because he had been a President which is the reason why it was handled with kid gloves, and not because the documents weren't of importance. And yes, with the upcoming mid terms, there is a need to speed up the process of getting the matter resolved. But it certainly isn't a matter of Trump being an innocent wrongly persecuted by godless liberal idol worshippers!

If they really thought Trump was going to sell top secret documents to China or whoever, they would have raided him a long time ago. The timing of this has political stunt written all over it.



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18 Aug 2022, 10:45 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
No, it's because he had been a President which is the reason why it was handled with kid gloves, and not because the documents weren't of importance. And yes, with the upcoming mid terms, there is a need to speed up the process of getting the matter resolved. But it certainly isn't a matter of Trump being an innocent wrongly persecuted by godless liberal idol worshippers!

If they really thought Trump was going to sell top secret documents to China or whoever, they would have raided him a long time ago. The timing of this has political stunt written all over it.


Maybe, or maybe they thought Trump had some sense of honor that proved to be nonexistent.
I wouldn't expect Trump to sell anything to China, but perhaps he thought he could trade something with Putin in order to escape conviction by American law.


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18 Aug 2022, 11:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
No, it's because he had been a President which is the reason why it was handled with kid gloves, and not because the documents weren't of importance. And yes, with the upcoming mid terms, there is a need to speed up the process of getting the matter resolved. But it certainly isn't a matter of Trump being an innocent wrongly persecuted by godless liberal idol worshippers!

If they really thought Trump was going to sell top secret documents to China or whoever, they would have raided him a long time ago. The timing of this has political stunt written all over it.


Maybe, or maybe they thought Trump had some sense of honor that proved to be nonexistent.
I wouldn't expect Trump to sell anything to China, but perhaps he thought he could trade something with Putin in order to escape conviction by American law.

Or maybe it's obviously political.



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19 Aug 2022, 1:06 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
That's what I said. Him having those documents wasn't that big of a deal for a long time, until all of sudden it became an emergency. The Jan 6 committee only has about 80 days left before the midterms. Liz Cheney is already out with no next term to continue. They're in panic mode.


There was the subpoena last spring. Trump turned docs over and it was supposed to be all, but as we know it wasn't. They needed probably cause to get a search warrant to look for the rest, and it seems they didn't have that until a reliable witness was willing to make a statement. This stuff takes time; the delay doesn't surprise me.


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19 Aug 2022, 2:58 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
But you don't?


No, I don't, difficult as that is for you to grasp, you seem to have a real issue recognizing that not everyone thinks the way you do.


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19 Aug 2022, 4:01 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
That's what I said. Him having those documents wasn't that big of a deal for a long time, until all of sudden it became an emergency. The Jan 6 committee only has about 80 days left before the midterms. Liz Cheney is already out with no next term to continue. They're in panic mode.


There was the subpoena last spring. Trump turned docs over and it was supposed to be all, but as we know it wasn't. They needed probably cause to get a search warrant to look for the rest, and it seems they didn't have that until a reliable witness was willing to make a statement. This stuff takes time; the delay doesn't surprise me.

That doesn't really seem to follow. They subpoenaed the documents before the informant, but then needed an informant to get a search warrant for documents they had already subpoenaed.

In this case I'm not asking what took so long as far as the normal process in something like this should go. I'm asking why they suddenly decided it was a national security emergency. They could have decided that over a year ago if they really believed that was the case.

It went from "come on Donald give the stuff back" to RED ALERT HE'S GOING TO SELL NUCLEAR SECRETS TO CHINA!



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19 Aug 2022, 5:08 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
No, it's because he had been a President which is the reason why it was handled with kid gloves, and not because the documents weren't of importance. And yes, with the upcoming mid terms, there is a need to speed up the process of getting the matter resolved. But it certainly isn't a matter of Trump being an innocent wrongly persecuted by godless liberal idol worshippers!

If they really thought Trump was going to sell top secret documents to China or whoever, they would have raided him a long time ago. The timing of this has political stunt written all over it.


Maybe, or maybe they thought Trump had some sense of honor that proved to be nonexistent.
I wouldn't expect Trump to sell anything to China, but perhaps he thought he could trade something with Putin in order to escape conviction by American law.

I'm thinking he sold them to his crush Kim Un Jong.


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19 Aug 2022, 6:27 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But you don't?


No, I don't, difficult as that is for you to grasp, you seem to have a real issue recognizing that not everyone thinks the way you do.
Ahem - "Diagnosis: Have Aspergers - Diagnosed".


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19 Aug 2022, 6:31 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
That's what I said. Him having those documents wasn't that big of a deal for a long time, until all of sudden it became an emergency. The Jan 6 committee only has about 80 days left before the midterms. Liz Cheney is already out with no next term to continue. They're in panic mode.


There was the subpoena last spring. Trump turned docs over and it was supposed to be all, but as we know it wasn't. They needed probably cause to get a search warrant to look for the rest, and it seems they didn't have that until a reliable witness was willing to make a statement. This stuff takes time; the delay doesn't surprise me.

That doesn't really seem to follow. They subpoenaed the documents before the informant, but then needed an informant to get a search warrant for documents they had already subpoenaed.

In this case I'm not asking what took so long as far as the normal process in something like this should go. I'm asking why they suddenly decided it was a national security emergency. They could have decided that over a year ago if they really believed that was the case.

It went from "come on Donald give the stuff back" to RED ALERT HE'S GOING TO SELL NUCLEAR SECRETS TO CHINA!


I think the act of not giving everything back raises the suspicion level by its own accord. What started as a records matter, asking more or less nicely, escalates when they discover he intentionally choose to withhold a large segment of the documents he was supposed to have returned. Before the spring subpoena and partial compliance, it was easy to claim he had just made a mistake. But when he returns over half but not the rest? Things start to look very intentional, plus there is the fact that the simple act of failing to comply in full with the subpoena is a new criminal act all on its on.

As for the timeline, they originally believed he was in compliance with the subpoena, that what he returned at the time was all he had. It is my understanding that it was the witness who let them know otherwise.

Based on what I understand of legal process, it all makes sense to me. But you do need to spend a few minutes threading through the details of the legal process.


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